Morrissey on Minogue

Danny_

Forgot my login!
I don't consider Morrissey's word's bitching. I consider the
m valid criticisim. I worry for a society that dismisses every criticism as bitching or whining.

Bitching is nasty personal remarks. Usually behind someone's back. It's not being sarcastic about a vapid singer being hailed by all and sundry as an important artist.
 

Anaesthesine

Angel of Distemper
Well, sure, I find Kylie unlistenable too, but not because I take pop music too seriously. Dumb music has its place too-- I proudly listen to dumb music just as readily as I do "serious" music. I can't imagine where, or when, or how many colorful pills I'd have to pop, but I can just about envision the possibility of once or twice in my life enjoying Kylie Minogue at a dance club. The problem is that pop music-- in the mainstream-- should offer up both the kind of music we can take seriously and the kind of music we don't. The choices should be plentiful and real, not narrow and forced down our throats. Out of a million people who took the Pepsi Challenge with Morrissey and Kylie Minogue I'd wager 900,000 would prefer Kylie. I could live with those numbers. But we don't even have that!
Don't get me wrong - I like silly pop as well. As long as the music is well-crafted and smart, it doesn't have to be profound. Some of my favorite music is completely absurd.

However, the thing that is irritating to people (and Morrissey), is the fact that dumb music is being recognized as being Culturally Important. I couldn't care less if someone likes Kylie, good for them, but one does have a right to gripe that the culture is most enriched by those who don't win popularity contests.

Also, from another perspective, the question of taking pop music seriously or not is an interesting one because if we say, "Ah, don't take pop music too seriously-- it's just pop music", it begs a follow-up question of what it is our culture does, in fact, take seriously. Our lives are stuffed to the gills with pop songs, movies, TV shows, and news outlets that blur the line between information and entertainment. Are we all firmly aware of what is serious and what is trivial in our world, or are we just abdicating the responsibility of being serious about anything at all? Who are we taking seriously, if not Kylie Minogue?
These days, the line between truth and fiction has been so blurred that everything, everything, is a joke - even torture, even war, even environmental breakdown. Nothing real is taken seriously anymore, even when the bodies are piling up.

This conversation puts me in mind of John McCain's ad comparing Obama to Britney and Paris - we are almost beyond redemption.
 
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Dave

Guest
Dave, you sure know how to hit below the belt. Joy Division, "proto-emo"? You will no doubt be happy to know I was until a moment ago curled on the floor in the posture of a man who has been kicked in the groin.
I'm sorry, but then I'm not because I really needed the laugh I got thinking of your reaction to that and then reading about it. Of course I was trying to reduce something great to the level it has become. I thankfully do not know the songs of Fall Out Boy for instance, but I did see Pete Wentz and Ashlee Simpson when I was checking to see if Britney was okay, and yes, that's pretty much where it's led. Them and those guys that are dating Paris and Nichole. Though, I do think it's got to be better than Limp Bizkit? Has to be.


However, the pain was much softened after making it all the way through your post. Because, at the end, you answered your question better than I could have. Despite your generous and evenhanded thoughts about diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, even you couldn't avoid the blinding truth:



Even in a perfect pop world, there is a place for Kylie and I'm sure she'd outsell Morrissey regardless. From a business perspective, though, the playing field isn't level, and that fact is something with which we all deal with varying degrees of acceptance-- until a day comes when Kylie is given a ridiculous award and the straw oh so gently breaks the camel's back, as it has done many times before in many different settings ("He has just received the cross of the Legion of Honour").
About the quote, it's true. I worked at K-Mart for 2 months in the late 90's in electronics and sold CD's. Lauren Hill was the only demo CD we had that was any good to listen to, so that should help you place the year. Garth Brooks had just released a live record with 6 or 8 different covers, and every time you bought one you got to enter a contest to have him play a concert in your back yard. This one lady must have bought at least 10 copies and she'd enter the contest every time. She said she had a feeling she was going to win, but if not she still wanted every cover. It seems like two of the covers were rare. That means we only had about 10 of each of those.

That Garth Brooks record took up a large proportion of our weekly CD delivery that week and the next.

None of that was even the point though, except to say that the music Garth Brooks makes me feel the way some people feel about Kylie. Like, "How dare he?" How dare he make that synthesized fake crap with his fake accent and sell so many records and it's still not enough? I care about the history of the music of our culture and I think that the history of common people, and the real flavor of life is there, and to have it mutilated like that is offensive.

The real point though was that, at the time Backstreet Boys were still popular and NSYNC had a record but I didn't know any of their names yet. But, like imagining that people don't really vote for Bush, I was pretty sure that people didn't really buy NSYNC records. But I'd see it with my own eyes, and it wasn't just kids. Grown people would come in and look at our selection, consider the choices, and buy NSYNC. I said something a few times, because I couldn't help it.

At the time Creed had that record with the skinhead on it, and this kid that worked there told me that they were good. I thought maybe they were punk or something, and I couldn't believe the sound when I finally heard their music.

It was a horrible time for music, at least in the electronics department of K-Mart. The only good stuff was old old old. Beatles, Pink Floyd... Mase's second CD was out and selling.

That's why, in all that, Lauryn Hill looked like a genius and a savior of music. I mean, I like her music, but given the context it seemed like the most awesomest stuff ever. I bought her remix single!

When I'd try to sell a stereo I'd look at the people and decide whether to put on Lauryn Hill or Garth Brooks. Once I put both Garth Brooks discs in the CD player before putting it in the box, and they brought them back. See, I HAD to play a CD that was open, and that meant Garth or Lauryn Hill, which I opened myself, or some NBA Jams record with Gary Glitter and stuff on it. No, I never played that one, ever. Anyone that likes NBA Jams can get down to Lauryn Hill.

Anyway, my point is that I thought that NSYNC was an obvious marketing gimmick aimed at children, but nowadays people act like Justin Timberlake should be taken seriously as a musical artist! YES! I got to my point! :D

I can't imagine people really buy his record, and yet, if you go into K-Mart, I'll bet you can watch it with your own eyes. so, yes, the taste is worse than ever.


Personally I don't care much about Kylie. I'm just trying to explain my own sense of why Morrissey has been mouthing off about her. I don't think he's being bitchy-- okay, okay, he is, but there's something behind his bitchiness worth thinking about. I'm commenting about this because the case of Kylie is glaring to me, as an American, since she is not popular here and when she has been pushed into view by her handlers it was in the service of startlingly cold-blooded marketing ploys to "crack the US market". I suspect my reaction is not unlike those of, say, Polish or Turkish people watching as Sylvester Stallone helicopters into their capitals to "boost his foreign box office".
I might be very wrong about Morrissey and his ideas about Kylie. Certainly, yes, he is aware that she's getting more than her share, whatever that means, and that there are probably some new acts out there worth hearing...

(Though when you consider that he dragged Kristeen Young around for two years, you sort of have to question this, no?)

but I think that Morrissey pretty much dislikes anyone that sells more records than he does. I can't think that this award means anything. It's of course that society is in such a place that they will give this award based, as we all know, on sales, and not on artistic innovation. But it's the government giving the award, it obviously means nothing, and I think that his remarks really were probably just off-the-cuff because it had happened that day.

There's evidence that he might see a newspaper or a television occasionally, and I think it was just something to say?

Not like the "Madonna and her African child" incident which seemed both planned and somewhat insanely bitter, this is probably just preaching to the choir, venting, making a topical reference as comedians love to do, and telling the crowd, "don't love her, love me".
 

nugz

SUPAHSTAR!
Dave, I can relate to your Kmart story. I worked at an FYE in central PA for a few months in 02. The only records anyone ever bought were country and rap. Once someone bought Radiohead and I said something to him. then he said it was for his daughter and that he had never even heard of them, and i was like "...oh." :(

that country album, that had a song on it about a sexy tractor...yeah, that one sold alot, i remember. :rolleyes:

oh and Josh Groban. lots of Josh Groban.
 
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Dave

Guest
Dave, I can relate to your Kmart story. I worked at an FYE in central PA for a few months in 02 or 03. The only records anyone ever bought were country and rap. Once someone bought Radiohead and I said something to him. then he said it was for his daughter and that he had never even heard of them, and i was like "...oh." :(

that country album, that had a song on it about a sexy tractor...yeah, that one sold alot, i remember. :rolleyes:
they were ahead of their time. I just heard about people that get turned on by mechanical things.

the "she thinks my tractor's sexy" guy should have got a Kraftwerk remix and had a dance hit!

but yes, these people buy these things, and you just go, ok...
but I've been laughed at by record store clerks, too. :D
 
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Dave

Guest


David Archuleta's camp knows what works.

E! News has exclusively learned that the 17-year-old crooner is working on songs for his debut album with Rock Mafia Records, the Santa Monica-based tune factory behind the Miley Cyrus hits "7 Things" and "See You Again."

A source tells us that Jeff Archuleta, the little one's infamous father-manager (dadager, perhaps?), recently met with Rock Mafia producers Antonia Armato and Tim James, who cowrote and coproduced eight of the tracks on Cyrus' latest album, Breakout. They have also worked with Mariah Carey, Vanessa Hudgens and Aly & AJ.

Father and son came away from the powwow convinced that they should proceed "in that direction," our insider said. "They want a Miley touch to the album."

Well, Archuleta will certainly need a wealth of infectious pop to equal his Disney-driven forebear, especially now that his label has orchestrated a plan to have his freshman effort drop the same day as American Idol winner David Cook's debut, sometime in November.

Over the next two weeks, David A. will record at least two Rock Mafia-sanctioned songs that 19 Recordings and RCA Records are hoping could turn into hit singles, the source said.

"David knows he needs to have a big radio hit, and Miley's producers are the closest thing he can get to a guarantee."

comment: aren't those "mom jeans"?
 

nugz

SUPAHSTAR!
they were ahead of their time. I just heard about people that get turned on by mechanical things.

the "she thinks my tractor's sexy" guy should have got a Kraftwerk remix and had a dance hit!

but yes, these people buy these things, and you just go, ok...
but I've been laughed at by record store clerks, too. :D
well the people I worked with liked good music at least. i remember i had just started listening to the Smiths at the time and the chick I worked with liked them too, and we put the "singles" cd on in the store. I also remember the second Strokes album coming out around that time and listening to that in the store.
 
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Dave

Guest
well the people I worked with liked good music at least. i remember i had just started listening to the Smiths at the time and the chick I worked with liked them too, and we put the "singles" cd on in the store. I also remember the second Strokes album coming out around that time and listening to that in the store.
that's cool. most record stores seem to have a few types that fight to control the music and play what they like. The best store here closed, but I would go in there and hear one clerk playing death metal or whatever it's called now, and then someone else would get a turn and they would try to prove their point by playing some "punk" or some other extreme thing. It was hardly ever appropriate music for browsing for records. It was like being at a debate. At the end they had stopped playing records and cd's and mostly had the radio on.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Jeepers, Dave, you worked at K-Mart? I see there's nothing about the public's taste that you don't already know well enough yourself. That sounds like two months of being flame-broiled in Hell.

It's been nice discussing this topic with you and some of the other people here because in my own mind I'm clearer about how I think of these megapopstars. As I said my main objection is the continually thinning array of choices. I wouldn't mind the lady who bought ten Garth Brooks CDs so much if many different kinds of bands were flying off the shelves too.

I think it's more interesting to ponder the fact that so many people are now buying their music (and books and films) in the same stores that sell deoderant, Coke, and antifreeze. You would know better than I, but my impression is that retailers like K-Mart, Wal-Mart, Best Buy and others now occupy a pretty big share of physical CD sales in this country. Standalone record stores are becoming scarcer. I alluded to this in my other post about convenient, easily-accessible markets. CDs are becoming just another thing you pick up at the store, which will only further contribute to the flattening-out of the pop landscape.

Also, more and more these sections are going to be choked with legacy reissues as the generations get older. All those Beatles and Led Zeppelin box sets won't be going anywhere, and they'll be joined by newer box sets by R.E.M., U2, Pearl Jam etc. Can you imagine how difficult it's going to be for new bands to break out in maybe five or ten years when there will only be a few places you can buy CDs offline and the stock is 85% back catalogue material by established artists? At that time, unless you live in a big city with a thriving scene, you will have to find out about new music by searching the Web. That can be good and bad, because even wide networks of people can often be close-ended. Searching on your own means knowing what to search for. And above all the thrill of hearing new songs on the radio or visiting the local record store in the hopes of uncovering a new gem will be just a memory. The euphoria Morrissey experienced watching "Top of The Pops" will be replaced by Google queries and YouTube searches.

"Oh my God, this band looks amazing! Gotta check them out-- oh, wait, I have to update my Flash player. Dang."

Now I'm just depressing myself. :o
 
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vpme

New Member
In my humble and subjective opinion, with music of such artistic quality and deepness (insert sarcastic smiley) like Mrs Minogue provides, his remark was fully deserved.

When you're a millions-earning 'Pop star' and rub yourself in the world's face, you should at least be able to stand some mocking by another artist. It's not like Moz took the piss out of some unfortunate little individual 'below his league'.
I agree totally and Miki Berenyi from Lush gave another good reason when pointing out Kylies contribution to popular culture

"'I have a massive problem with her because she epitomises the acceptable role ... it's a shame she gets so much credibility when there are so many women worth a hundred times that. It's war—you shouldn't stick up for Kylie, she should be fought at every turn'. :)

But of course these days showing your bare arse in lads mags is of course just a "bit of harmless fun" or even ironic. Thing is irony just isnt what it used to be is it ?
 

redpathetic

Somehow Anesthetized
I agree totally and Miki Berenyi from Lush gave another good reason when pointing out Kylies contribution to popular culture

"'I have a massive problem with her because she epitomises the acceptable role ... it's a shame she gets so much credibility when there are so many women worth a hundred times that. It's war—you shouldn't stick up for Kylie, she should be fought at every turn'. :)

But of course these days showing your bare arse in lads mags is of course just a "bit of harmless fun" or even ironic. Thing is irony just isnt what it used to be is it ?
Ya right. Women should only be sexy behind closed doors eh? Hide that beautiful butt? Truly civilized people wouldn't be offended by Kylie's enthusiasm to be unashamed of choosing to enjoy feeling sexy.
 

vpme

New Member
Ya right. Women should only be sexy behind closed doors eh? Hide that beautiful butt? Truly civilized people wouldn't be offended by Kylie's enthusiasm to be unashamed of choosing to enjoy feeling sexy.

Bollocks, the whole point is "lads mags" gives the view that all women are available and all women want sex with you, and him and well anybody really.... Theres nothing wrong with being sexy, its how its portrayed and in what context. Kylie used her arse to revive her career, simple as that, very liberating

Truly civilised people wouldnt feel the need to objectify women and display them as sexual commodities, who indiscriminatley "want it"
 
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redpathetic

Somehow Anesthetized
Bollocks, the whole point is "lads mags" gives the view that all women are available and all women want sex with you, and him and well anybody really.... Theres nothing wrong with being sexy, its how its portrayed and in what context. Kylie used her arse to revive her career, simple as that, very liberating

Truly civilised people wouldnt feel the need to objectify women and display them as sexual commodities, who indiscriminatley "want it"
There is nothing wrong with her looking like this except that people don't stand up for the right to look this way enough. A woman, or man for that matter, would be able to walk down any street in real civilization, without fear of being persecuted, or objectified for it. Anyone who would objectify her should have been given a green light to do so, from her, and the way she is dressed and dances, is not a green light.
 

vpme

New Member
There is nothing wrong with her looking like this except that people don't stand up for the right to look this way enough. A woman, or man for that matter, would be able to walk down any street in real civilization, without fear of being persecuted, or objectified for it. Anyone who would objectify her should have been given a green light to do so, from her, and the way she is dressed and dances, is not a green light.
Theres nothing wrong with looking like that no, but then again she wouldnt walk down the street looking like that would she, for one it mightn't actually be that comfortable when shopping at Tescos and two, due to the rise of the cretenious trouser jostling infantile lads mags, (Nuts and Zoo) and what they promote...(and shes apeared in them)which have created a culture of crassness and letchery... Again its all about the context. Is she really dressing like that beacuse its out of informed choice, or is she being told to wear something " sexy"? Yes We know sex sells, but would her career really have kicked off again without those little hot pants ?? If shes dressing just as she wishes then fine, but somehow I dont think so. She(or her management knew exactly what they are doing). As I say it's all harmelss "fun" nowdays isn't it

Anyway her songs, in my opinion are manufactered shite, with little to say :p. So I wont waste my breathe on somebody who has done little to merit such praise.
 
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redpathetic

Somehow Anesthetized
Theres nothing wrong with looking like that no, but then again she wouldnt walk down the street looking like that would she, for one it mightn't actually be that comfortable when shopping at Tescos and two, due to the rise of the cretenious trouser jostling infantile lads mags, (Nuts and Zoo) and what they promote...(and shes apeared in them)which have created a culture of crassness and letchery... Again its all about the context. Is she really dressing like that beacuse its out of informed choice, or is she being told to wear something " sexy"? Yes We know sex sells, but would her career really have kicked off again without those little hot pants ?? If shes dressing just as she wishes then fine, but somehow I dont think so. She(or her management knew exactly what they are doing). As I say it's all harmelss "fun" nowdays isn't it

Anyway her songs, in my opinion are manufactered shite, with little to say :p. So I wont waste my breathe on somebody who has done little to merit such praise.
Of course you would imply that she wouldn't choose to dress that way but maybe she would if civilization really existed, ...not all the time, but when she feels like lightening the mood, being sensuous and scantily clad, getting on a dance floor and grooving, yes she might and probably has, during her off-time, without it having to be photographed or filmed, even.

There are few women I see who can really own such a way of dressing. It usually does strike me as something women feel imposed upon to wear, because most women do only wear it because they feel they must out of reasons not their own, but Kylie, she has shown obvious delight in being unashamed, not a victim, but proud of her vital signs, as I wish we all could be, rather than this see-saw of women being victims and men being predators. It's such crap. Kylie represents an ideal social logic to me, one that doesn't repress sexuality, even if it is, female.
 

redpathetic

Somehow Anesthetized
Anyway her songs, in my opinion are manufactered shite, with little to say :p. So I wont waste my breathe on somebody who has done little to merit such praise.
I really like this song. It's a song of in-the-moment liberation and harmony, and, look at this audience, and the dancers, ...she brings together men and women who are seeing that they can all groove with her, finding her hot, but not objectified.

The next videos are clearly full of joy to me, and, yes men find her hot but the men in her audience, they aren't victimizing her. She owns it and sets a trend where a man who tends to victimize women will find himself not fitting in, in a Kylie audience, because the men around her are grooving, enjoying themselves, just as is, with her having fun, the other women having fun, themselves having fun, no one being victimized. It's just dancing, grooving, flirting...it's playful and innocent.

Can you imagine a misogynist walking in upon such a scene. He would be so miserable, because no one would be in on it with him.

But in the real world, the 'normal' world, women who dress like that are deemed to be asking for vicimization...well, Kylie tries to take back the night from sadists.
SPINNING AROUND-
Oooh-oh

I'm spinning around
Move out of my way
I know you're feelin' me 'cause you like it like this
I'm breakin' it down
I'm not the same
I know you're feelin' me 'cause you like it like this

Traded in my sorrowsfor some joy that I borrowed
From back in the day
Threw away my old clothes
Got myself a better wardrobe
I got something to say

I'm through with the past
Ain't no point in looking back
The future will be
And did I forget to mention that I found a new direction
And it leads back to me?

I'm spinning around
Move out of my way
I know you're feelin' me 'cause you like it like this
I'm breakin' it down
I'm not the same
I know you're feelin' me 'cause you like it like this

The mistakes I've made, have given me the strength
To really believe
that no matter how i take it
There's no way i'm gonna fake it 'cuz it's gotta be real

I've got nothin' left to hide
No reason left to fight
'Cuz the truth's given me a new freedom inside
Gettin' rid of my desire
Do you like what you see?

I'm spinning around
Move out of my way
I know you're feelin' me 'cuz you like it like this
I'm breakin' it down
I'm not the same
I know you're feelin' me 'cuz you like it like this

baby, baby, baby
You know you like it like this baby,baby, baby
You know you like it like this
baby, baby, baby

I'm spinning around
Move out of my way
I know you're feeling me cause you like it like this
I'm breakin' it down
I'm not the same
I know you're feeling me cause you like it like this

Oh, I'm not the same cause
You like it like this
 
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redpathetic

Somehow Anesthetized
red, given that it appears that you feel kylie being known more for her arse that her thoughts, feelings and opinions is a good thing and that sexualised women regardless of context is empowering, can i ask your thoughts on women who do porn, strip, lap dance, or prostitute?
If the porn is sex they want independantly of making porn, that's okay. I don't believe in prostitution because sex is a very intimate thing and it's soul destroying to mess with that. If someone needs money so badly that they'd have sex for it, that's a sad situation to me. Lap dancing is also too intimate. Stripping is beautiful as long as the stripper is treated with respect, has healthy self-respect, and good social support. Table dancing is fine too if there is a code of no grabbing or rubbing that is monitored closely.

Edit:Adding:Any woman who works in 'the skin trade' had better have good social support or society will snub her, ridicule and vilify her, no matter how good a person she is, how talented, intelligent, etc. Unless she can keep it all a secret, which helps to keep it taboo and alienating.

Kylie's music, I like most of it and find it brilliant. You tend to forget that.
 
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vpme

New Member
Hehehe, problem is though, Red old son, the videos such as Spinning Around (same goes for the live "show") arent real representations of things that happen in reality I mean its not a documentary is it ? Its selling a sexualised ideal. The idea is yes to show her "enjoying her sexuality" the reality is, its a video,using her sexuality to sell product "kylie" . It bears no relation to the real world. I think you need to sepreate fantasy from reality. At the end of the day women still get a tough time in the music industry and there is still a pressure on them to "sex it up" a bit, whether they want to or not.

Maybe if women were in the majority in the industry I'd agree with you. But they ain't so I dont
 
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Sunbags

Sunbags
Hehehe, problem is though, Red old son, the videos such as Spinning Around (same goes for the live "show") arent real representations of things that happen in reality I mean its not a documentary is it ? Its selling a sexualised ideal. The idea is yes to show her "enjoying her sexuality" the reality is, its a video,using her sexuality to sell product "kylie" . It bears no relation to the real world. I think you need to sepreate fantasy from reality. At the end of the day women still get a tough time in the music industry and there is still a pressure on them to "sex it up" a bit, whether they want to or not.

Maybe if women were in the majority in the industry I'd agree with you. But they ain't so I dont

You are all talking about her as if she were a Kelly Brooke type, constantly in FHM, and having a sexy image wich caters to straight men. Kylie is camp, and she's a gay icon. She's like the Judy Garland of this generation - and by the way, Kylie has had more artistic input into her music than Judy ever did!!!! And you all talk about Kylie like she's a puppet of the record company - I don't remember Kylie ever dying from an overdose of barbituates. Judy Garland was given drugs to take by the film company she belonged to (think it was MGM) when she was a teenager, and she ended up dying due to her subsequent addiction to the drugs.


Do you really think these outfits are Kylie catering to straight men's fantasies?







 

vpme

New Member
She may well cater to a gay crowd, and your point is....? (by the way the second pic look like shes catering for Michael Jacksons fantasies, 3rd one some sort of Abba rip off 4th one Madonna lite. Its what she does , pale imitations of other pop acts)

Kylie? Artistic input ? Come along now , the last bus to la-la land leaves in five minutes. Next you'll be talking about Danii's contribution to popular culture, and how great X Factor is . Pffft


PS Not sure if she's ever died of a drug overdose, but shes died on TV a few times, in fact several times during her performance in Doc Who, due to the sheer inert, timber like performance. Torchwood? I should co-co!
 
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