Morrissey - great lyricist but no match for Bob Dylan!

[Mindy]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> Oh please! You call me pretentious and yet the above diatribe is riddled
> with inaccurate comments and unsubstantiated assertions.

> 1) 'How Soon is Now' is certainly not "reviled by fans" - not in
> the UK anyway. I knew plenty of fans who thought it the greatest Smiths
> song - I was THERE in the 80s - you sound like a very young person who has
> come to the Smiths second hand.

in another post, you said i must be nostalgic for the old days. which is it? yes, i am a young fan. i didn't come into them second hand though. in any case, how about some consistency? "how soon is now?" is only considered the greatest smiths song by casual fans -- mostly people who don't know any others or who have only listened to "singles." i don't hate "how soon is now?," but it is definitely one of my least favorite smiths songs and a lot of fans feel the same way. it is definitely reviled by some fans because of its popularity. it gets annoying when people go "oh i love the smiths, of course, i've only heard hsin" and it gets annoying to have that song co-opted by so many stupid television shows, movies, and commercials. no other smiths song has been so embraced by the masses -- again, more indication that it is not comparable to the rest of the smiths canon musically or lyrically.

> 2) There are VERY GOOD reasons for comparing Dylan & Moz. Both are
> acclaimed primarily as lyricists and have been described as poets. Both
> have been heroes & indeed 'spokesmen' for a generation of young people
> and both have addressed wider social concerns in their music as opposed to
> being pure entertainment.

it is still an arbitrary choice, they are not the only two acclaimed lyricists and poets, nor are they the only two who have been called spokespersons for their generation. (hell, someone once called chloe sevigny the voice of her generation -- say what?)

> 3) Your comment "any fan or critic knows this" is so sweeping
> & shallow that is suggests a great deal about your own ignorance.

so you deny that "how soon is now?" doesn't sound like any other smiths song? you deny that it has a druggy, danceable vibe? come on, this is the one smiths song that really made its way into discos for a reason. that is undisputable.

anyway, i'm going to stop arguing with you because you are completely full of it. you just started this thread to be a smartass. no normal person who claims to be a smiths fan would randomly try to compare bob dylan and moz. you're just being a jerk and you may as well admit it. don't expect anymore replies from me.

 

[sparacus]

> I don't quite agree with you, but I respect your opinion. To be honest, I
> haven't heard that much of Dylan. So in that regard I am not saying that
> you are wrong, because I do not have a right to say so. Morrissey just
> speaks to me more that Dylan does (different generations/different
> subjects). I do want to applaud you in having an intelligent and
> respectful discussion. I will say this though, Johnny Marr did a cover of
> "Don't think twice, it's alright" and I though it was the best
> song in the show. Cheers.

Thanks. I understand that Marr is a Dylan fan & also appreciates other artists from Dylan's era such as Crosby Stills & Nash and Bert Jansch.

 

[david]

Re: Bob Dylan

> A risible opinion. Dylan is the finest lyricist in the history of popular
> music. He has mastered a phenomenal range of different styles and produced
> classic albums such as 'Blonde on Blonde' and 'Bringing it all Back Home'.
> His website also has a superb discussion board which I post on frequently.

Hmm. He's never really spoken to me...i've heard a lot of his stuff, and it doesn't really mean anything to me at all. He seems to have achieved god-like status, and while I too respect the fact that you're a huge fan of his, I can't really understand why..

 

[sparacus]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> in another post, you said i must be nostalgic for the old days. which is
> it? yes, i am a young fan. i didn't come into them second hand though. in
> any case, how about some consistency? "how soon is now?" is only
> considered the greatest smiths song by casual fans -- mostly people who
> don't know any others or who have only listened to "singles." i
> don't hate "how soon is now?," but it is definitely one of my
> least favorite smiths songs and a lot of fans feel the same way. it is
> definitely reviled by some fans because of its popularity. it gets
> annoying when people go "oh i love the smiths, of course, i've only
> heard hsin" and it gets annoying to have that song co-opted by so
> many stupid television shows, movies, and commercials. no other smiths
> song has been so embraced by the masses -- again, more indication that it
> is not comparable to the rest of the smiths canon musically or lyrically.

> it is still an arbitrary choice, they are not the only two acclaimed
> lyricists and poets, nor are they the only two who have been called
> spokespersons for their generation. (hell, someone once called chloe
> sevigny the voice of her generation -- say what?)

> so you deny that "how soon is now?" doesn't sound like any other
> smiths song? you deny that it has a druggy, danceable vibe? come on, this
> is the one smiths song that really made its way into discos for a reason.
> that is undisputable.

> anyway, i'm going to stop arguing with you because you are completely full
> of it. you just started this thread to be a smartass. no normal person who
> claims to be a smiths fan would randomly try to compare bob dylan and moz.
> you're just being a jerk and you may as well admit it. don't expect
> anymore replies from me.

I couldn't give a monkey's toss whether you reply or not. You are a teen girl who got into the Smiths 'last week' and considers herself an expert. Your assertion that 'How Soon is Now' only appeals to casual fans is just plain wrong - I was there - you were a puking baby in nappies.
and your comment "no normal person who claims to be a Smiths fan" is HILARIOUS in its absurdity.

 

[Ahem. Hello.]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> Your use of foul language and inability to spell pretentious reveals you
> to be profoundly dim. However I will try to instill some sense into the
> misty recesses of your darkling mind.
> The fact that 'Golden Lights' is a cover is precisely why I used the
> example - I was trying to point out that 'How Soon is Now' is far more
> typical of the Smiths' canon.
> Critics are the experts and therefore their opinions count for more than
> yours. And Dylan & Moz have many different points of reference in
> common such as iconic status, youth spokesmen attributes and primarily
> lyrical artistes.

Everyone makes typing mistakes, if that is how you guage intelligence you have a serious problem. You've made several in your posts as well, anyway...

Critics are not "experts." Critics are just apeople who are paid for their personal opinions, there's not any "expert" requirement for being one. Anyone with half a mind knows not to put a lot of weight to what critics say.

Dylan and Morrissey may have some things in common, that doesn't disprove the point I made. Think on it a little deeper. "Iconic status, youth spokesmen attributes and primarily lyrical artistes" does not make them entirely similar enough for someone to compare them in the way that you have. Would you compare Martin Gore to Cat Stevens? Jarvis Cocker to Janis Ian? They all have at least as much in common as you claim Moz and Bob do...however, they are so very different from each other that saying one is better than the other would, as I said before, be a matter of personal taste; just like your statements about Bob being better than Moz are.

 

[An observer]

Dylan and Morrissey

I've read the thread below and first I want to say that, yes, "How Soon Is Now?" is one of the representative Smiths songs. I've rarely been surprised on this board; I was this time, though, after reading a few different posters claiming it to be anomalous in The Smiths' canon. Musically it's unique, maybe, but Morrissey's words would have needed little in the way of alterations to fit comfortably with any of Johnny's other compositions.

That said, I think your comparison of Dylan to Morrissey is completely unfair.

I've read your arguments, and my answer is simply to say that you're comparing apples with oranges. Morrissey is not a "lyric" writer in the more literary sense. When The Smiths began he expressly stated that he wanted to use real language in ways that real people could understand. His love of Shelagh Delaney and others of her ilk bears out his proclivity for straightforward language. They were the kitchen sink, "angry young men" generation whose hallmark was using plainspoken, "real" English in films and on the stage. Morrissey has always eschewed flaccid rock and roll imagery, coming at his targets head on with simple, direct language. That he has a number of cleverly phrased lines doesn't take away from the fact that he is using the simplest possible language-- the language of pop music, the lowest common denominator. His chief innovation was to freshen that language, not reinvent it.

In Morrissey's words: "When we entered the whole thing I really thought it was time for very fundamental language to be used. People seemed to be saying things in a way that was too obscure to be grasped by people who couldn't really think a great deal about certain situations. I always find that the most powerful words are the most fundamental ones, and I thought there were things to be said that really hadn't been said before. It was always important to me to use lines that hadn't been used before, because it wasn't enough to employ the usual pop terminology."

Or: "I think the lyrics are very direct and, as I often say, I feel the words haven't been heard before. It's not the usual humdrum terminology. It's something quite different. I could never use words that rhymed in a traditional way. It would become absolutely pointless."

Dylan, with whom I am familiar but who is by no means a hero of mine, writes more in the vein you described-- his words are closer to true lyric poetry. He doesn't come from the same traditions-- Dylan is more of an actual poet who took to writing folk songs (which have a long tradition in literature as ballads). He was inspired to come to New York City by the Beats, who often seamlessly mixed their words with jazz. Later on, Dylan was apparently heavily intersted in the Symbolists, whose poetry couldn't possibly be more different in form than the pop lyrics in that (or any) era of pop music. To be a poet and to use the vernacular of pop and rock and roll as a platform must have seemed the most natural thing in the world. Coming along after Dylan had shaped rock music (and after much of it had become a cliche), Morrissey's driving inspiration was pop music and he never wanted more than to write great pop records.

Personally I find a number of Dylan's songs to be rambling, barely coherent (as lyrics, nevermind his voice), and full of stock imagery that any seventh grade poetry unit would have no trouble deciphering before recess. On the other hand, he has written a number of great songs, and no one can deny that his protean output over the years is a sign of a dynamic artist. Of course, you could say the same about Sting, Paul Simon, and Peter Gabriel-- whose mature incarnations absolutely suck-- and Lou Reed-- who's brilliant. So I'm not sure that argument means as much as you'd like it to.

Whatever the merit of his work, obviously there are thousands of other people like you-- including, fantastically, the Nobel Prize folks-- who find his songs to be a great source of modern American poetry. So I defer to their judgment even if I don't share it. But my point is that you can't compare the two as writers. Different aims, different methods, different inspiration.

Morrissey is not a poet. He is a gifted pop wordsmith whose sensibility appeals to those who have a taste for literature. Really, I don't think any pop songwriters should be thought of as poets. The tag "poet" is a dubious way of conferring legitimacy on a favorite artist. That's all. And although I grant that Dylan may be an exception, I question the literary scholarship of anyone who would study a pop lyric as a piece of literature separate from the context in which it was written.

Typically when someone plays me a record and says "This guy is, like, a true poet" I know I'm about to hear some of the most godawful drivel ever committed to paper. Why not just allow them to be what they are-- pop songwriters-- and judge them by that craft's rules and traditions? Do that and you realize that Morrissey and Dylan are both gifted but incomparably different writers who both deserve admiration. The only way to affirm Dylan's superiority is to set them apart from the pop tradition and view them as "poets", which I reject. Decontextualizing them for the purposes of comparison instantly renders the comparison useless.

 

[Notastitchtowear]

> OK - lets be honest now. Moz is a great lyricist - witty and emotive. But
> Dylan is far superior in his use of complex poetics and imagery. I mean
> 'How Soon Is Now' lacks the vision of 'Mr Tambourine Man' or 'Ballad of a
> Thin Man'.

The two are so completely different, different times in history and very different generations, the two don't even compare. You must know so little about rock music.

 

[CrushingBore]

Ummmmmmmmmmm - wot?

That's like saying "Leonardo was a great artist, but he's no match for Picasso"!
It's totally irrelevant to compare to lyrical styles in this manner - Dylan's imagery and his narrative abilities were tremendous - but he does not have Moz's sense of wit, pathos or emotional drama.

They are both great but in totally different ways and for totally different reasons. I have to give the nod to Morrissey overall - he's consistently brilliant, whereas Dylan lapses periodically into appallingly formulaic songwriting.

 

[CrushingBore]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> the actual words are what i'm talking about in "how soon is
> now?" no other smiths song is quite so overly dramatic (i.e. "i
> am the son and the heir of nothing in particular" with puns on sun
> and air) or quite so reviled by fans. it is NOT a characteristic song. any
> fan or music critic knows this.

Hi, Mindy. Agree with you overall, but must contest this point. There are plenty of Smiths songs which IMO are as "overly dramatic" as hsin, lyrically speaking. "There is a Light" and "Last Night I Dreamt" are two which spring immediately to mind. I consider it quite lyrically characteristic, it's the music which sets it apart. It amazes me more guitarists haven't used the ultra-reverb effect down the years - I think it's that which remains the most distinctive aspect of the song. Because of this my friends used to taunt me and cause me to fly into rages by calling it "the 'Hippy Chick'" song (presume you're familiar with the Soho sample) - as though the riff were the only thing characteristic about it. I love hsin.

> as far as i'm concerned, bob dylan's songs are almost all long and
> rambling and boring. even if you disagree with me

Well, your opinion on the 'boring' point - but Dylan wrote many more 3 minute or less numbers than those of the more epic variety. And he remains one of my favourite artists.

 

[Mindy]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> Hi, Mindy. Agree with you overall, but must contest this point. There are
> plenty of Smiths songs which IMO are as "overly dramatic" as
> hsin, lyrically speaking. "There is a Light" and "Last
> Night I Dreamt" are two which spring immediately to mind. I consider
> it quite lyrically characteristic, it's the music which sets it apart. It
> amazes me more guitarists haven't used the ultra-reverb effect down the
> years - I think it's that which remains the most distinctive aspect of the
> song. Because of this my friends used to taunt me and cause me to fly into
> rages by calling it "the 'Hippy Chick'" song (presume you're
> familiar with the Soho sample) - as though the riff were the only thing
> characteristic about it. I love hsin.

well, yes, morrissey always did have a flair for melodrama, but for me hsin is the most melodramatic of all his songs. additionally, the lyrics seem to appeal to a whole other audience -- the whole "there's a club if you'd like to go." for some reason, it just doesn't fit in with the rest of the canon. yes, the music is part of it (and i am familiar with "hippy chick") because it is very unique and the reverb effect is not replicated anywhere else in the smiths catalogue. but i just can't reconcile the lyrics either. i know i'm not alone in this. i admit i was a bit overly dramatic myself in saying that many fans "reviled" the song. they're more likely to revile the popularity and attention it has received at the expense of the rest of the smiths' music. a lot of potential new fans go into the smiths expecting it all the sound like hsin or they stay away from it for that reason. that's one reason i hesitated for so long before buying a smiths record. i liked hsin, but i didn't know if i needed another whole album of doom and gloom and swampy, druggy music (after all, for psychedelic music, i already had my stone roses and for the gothy stuff, i already had my smashing pumpkins). imagine my surprise when i popped singles into my cd walkman and heard "hand in glove." it was not what i was expecting at all. so i hope that gives you a better idea why i consider hsin to be an anomoly in the canon and why others may feel the same way.

the other thing i dislike about hsin is all the crappy cover versions, but we've been through this.

> Well, your opinion on the 'boring' point - but Dylan wrote many more 3
> minute or less numbers than those of the more epic variety. And he remains
> one of my favourite artists.

of course, you're right. they just feel long to me since i find them boring. i don't mind bob actually. it's just not my thing and i know i've liked a few songs of his -- the main thing i took issue with was that bonehead's trying to compare the two and summarily proclaim bob's superiority for no reason other than to start problems on the board (if you look at his other posts, it becomes clear that he's just trying to annoy us all).

 

[Mindy]

another reason moz has bob beat: he isn't jakob dylan's dad

 

[LoafingOaf - All praise to Allah]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> "how soon is now?" is only
> considered the greatest smiths song by casual fans -- mostly people who
> don't know any others or who have only listened to "singles."

That's just not true, Mindy. "How Soon Is Now?" is one of my favorites and I'm far from a casual fan. It's one of the best musically, and it touches me when Morrissey sings about how every human needs to be loved.

I also know it's one of the songs Johnny Marr is proudest of. After Marr recorded "Jealous of Youth" with The The, he stated that that was his best guitar work on a song since "How Soon Is Now?"

>i
> don't hate "how soon is now?," but it is definitely one of my
> least favorite smiths songs and a lot of fans feel the same way. it is
> definitely reviled by some fans because of its popularity. it gets
> annoying when people go "oh i love the smiths, of course, i've only
> heard hsin" and it gets annoying to have that song co-opted by so
> many stupid television shows, movies, and commercials. no other smiths
> song has been so embraced by the masses -- again, more indication that it
> is not comparable to the rest of the smiths canon musically or lyrically.

This is rubbish, Mindy. I don't know *any* Smiths fan who considers "HSIN?" a "reviled" song. Except for you, apparently.

> anyway, i'm going to stop arguing with you because you are completely full
> of it. you just started this thread to be a smartass. no normal person who
> claims to be a smiths fan would randomly try to compare bob dylan and moz.
> you're just being a jerk and you may as well admit it. don't expect
> anymore replies from me.

I don't know why you guys jump on him. You complain about the same old threads, but when someone starts a different one you get all hostile. Yet he clearly stated he considers Morrissey a fine lyricist. I absolutely love Bob Dylan's music and lyrics, as I do Morrissey's. They're two of the top lyricists alive. And while my personal preference is for Morrissey (because he's more fun to listen to) I'd have to say Dylan is the better poet of the two. That's not really an attack on Morrissey at all. Morrissey's f***ing brilliant. But you know, nobody can be THE BEST. There's always somebody else out there....

 

[CrushingBore]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> well, yes, morrissey always did have a flair for melodrama, but for me
> hsin is the most melodramatic of all his songs. additionally, the lyrics
> seem to appeal to a whole other audience -- the whole "there's a club
> if you'd like to go." for some reason, it just doesn't fit in with
> the rest of the canon.

Agree with all except this bit - the club line is to me a natural product of Moz's way of making his individual dramas specific, vis a vis something like "Rusholme Ruffians", and I think is a natural extension of his exhorting of Sheila to "come out and find the one that you love". If Moz sings broadly about the drama of loneliness I think a club is a natural stage for these dramas.

Entering into this drama myself tonight - going to a club called "weekender" which plays indie/alternative stuff from 60's through 90's. Will probably go home, cry and want to die. Last time I was there they inexplicably stopped "Panic" 3/4's of the way through for NO good reason. Sacrilege!

 

[LoafingOaf - All praise to Allah]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> well, yes, morrissey always did have a flair for melodrama, but for me
> hsin is the most melodramatic of all his songs. additionally, the lyrics
> seem to appeal to a whole other audience -- the whole "there's a club
> if you'd like to go." for some reason, it just doesn't fit in with
> the rest of the canon.

"So you go and you stand alone, and you leave alone, and you go home and you cry and you want to die." When I first started listening to The Smiths I absolutely looved those lyrics. It might've been the first time I'd ever heard a pop singer admitting these feelings. It wasn't all how cool he thinks he is, and getting laid at clubs like a hipster stud. It was: I was at a club, I was lonely, I felt even lonelier there, I came home alone and was totally depressed about it, I am human and I need to be loved dammit. I've felt like a big unloveable dork at clubs and parties a million times. And I appreciate Morrissey's willingness to sing about that dorky dude inside of him.

 

[Mindy]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> That's just not true, Mindy. "How Soon Is Now?" is one of my
> favorites and I'm far from a casual fan. It's one of the best musically,
> and it touches me when Morrissey sings about how every human needs to be
> loved.
> I also know it's one of the songs Johnny Marr is proudest of. After Marr
> recorded "Jealous of Youth" with The The, he stated that that
> was his best guitar work on a song since "How Soon Is Now?"
> This is rubbish, Mindy. I don't know *any* Smiths fan who considers
> "HSIN?" a "reviled" song. Except for you, apparently.

sorry for the blanket statement. i explained myself to crushingbore already. what i meant to say was that in general, i can tell who's a casual fan because they invariably name "how soon is now?" as their favorite smiths song -- not mentioning that it's probably the only one they know and they heard it in "the wedding singer." i'm sure there are some hardcore fans who count it as their favorite song, but not many of the ones i've spoken to do.

> I don't know why you guys jump on him. You complain about the same old
> threads, but when someone starts a different one you get all hostile. Yet
> he clearly stated he considers Morrissey a fine lyricist. I absolutely
> love Bob Dylan's music and lyrics, as I do Morrissey's. They're two of the
> top lyricists alive. And while my personal preference is for Morrissey
> (because he's more fun to listen to) I'd have to say Dylan is the better
> poet of the two. That's not really an attack on Morrissey at all.
> Morrissey's f***ing brilliant. But you know, nobody can be THE BEST.
> There's always somebody else out there....

oh maybe i jumped on him because he started a whole bunch of threads that are really very anti-morrissey, but pretends to be a huge fan. did you not see his other posts about what a saint andy rourke is? he is clearly just trying to "stir shit" so to speak, rather than have an intelligent conversation. i don't care if he disagrees with me, but i am convinced he's just trying to be an annoyance.

and when have i ever personally complained about the same old threads? of course i hate the ones that ask "is morrisey gay?" (the spelling mistake is intentional) and "why are you all so mean to andy rourke?" but i don't recall bitching about it. not lately anyway. furthermore, i don't know if you noticed, but he also started one of those andy threads and proceeded to bash morrissey and make all kinds of dumb statements (the most laughable of which is that andy and mike are basically noble idealists who were in it for the art, the art i tell you).

 

[Mindy]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> Agree with all except this bit - the club line is to me a natural product
> of Moz's way of making his individual dramas specific, vis a vis something
> like "Rusholme Ruffians", and I think is a natural extension of
> his exhorting of Sheila to "come out and find the one that you
> love". If Moz sings broadly about the drama of loneliness I think a
> club is a natural stage for these dramas.

well i'm just speaking for myself anyway. i see what you mean, but it doesn't change the fact that the song isn't one of my favorites for that reason. don't get me wrong. the lyrics oaf mentions do speak to me. i mean, i, of all people, can relate to rejection!

> Entering into this drama myself tonight - going to a club called
> "weekender" which plays indie/alternative stuff from 60's
> through 90's. Will probably go home, cry and want to die. Last time I was
> there they inexplicably stopped "Panic" 3/4's of the way through
> for NO good reason. Sacrilege!

bastards! this is completely unrelated, but when i came back from taking a shower this morning, i'd left my radio on and "ask" was playing. i have the best timing ever. i don't know why i felt like sharing that. call me queen random.

 

[Mindy]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> "So you go and you stand alone, and you leave alone, and you go home
> and you cry and you want to die." When I first started listening to
> The Smiths I absolutely looved those lyrics. It might've been the first
> time I'd ever heard a pop singer admitting these feelings. It wasn't all
> how cool he thinks he is, and getting laid at clubs like a hipster stud.
> It was: I was at a club, I was lonely, I felt even lonelier there, I came
> home alone and was totally depressed about it, I am human and I need to be
> loved dammit. I've felt like a big unloveable dork at clubs and parties a
> million times. And I appreciate Morrissey's willingness to sing about that
> dorky dude inside of him.

well i'm obviously from the younger generation of fans, so maybe that has something to do with why it doesn't strike me as much as it does you. i mean, i grew up listening to depressing music, so the sentiments in hsin weren't exactly new to me. plus, i grew up thinking of that song as being some random eighties song. i thought it was unique and interesting, but there was other music i preferred. i guess i've never gotten over it and as i said before, i know there are other fans who feel similarly. additionally, there are people whose views on the song change constantly. (i guess i might be one of them. sometimes i listen to that song over and over, other times, i skip over it.) for example, a good friend of mine once told me she didn't like hsin? because it was not at all representative of the smiths' output, in her opinion. i asked her again recently and she gushed and gushed over. hsin? does speak to me on some levels. it's just not my favorite and i apologize for getting so uppity about it, but damn, that guy annoys the hell out of me.

 

[Ears With Feet]

Observer, What do you think about Tori Amos poetry?

 

[LoafingOaf - All praise to Allah]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> oh maybe i jumped on him because he started a whole bunch of threads that
> are really very anti-morrissey, but pretends to be a huge fan. did you not
> see his other posts about what a saint andy rourke is? he is clearly just
> trying to "stir shit" so to speak,

No, I didn't see his other threads. You may be right then. = )

 

[An observer]

Re: Observer, What do you think about Tori Amos poetry?

I haven't read any of her poems. As for her songs, the few I've heard I didn't like at all. Many people find her work very meaningful, though, so I suppose she must have something going for her.

If nothing else I reckon she's better than Jewel.