Morrissey - great lyricist but no match for Bob Dylan!

[Ears With Feet]

Bob, Moz, Phish, Tori and Cobain... only maniak could compare them... LOL

> DYLAN:

> "Of war and peace the truth just twists
> Its curfew gull it glides
> Upon four -legged forest clouds
> The cowboy angel rides"

Was Dylan taking "angel dust" ("cowboy angel rides") while writing this? (LOL)

Personally, I consider John Lennon, Tori Amos and Leonard Cohen the best poets & rockers.

Then Robert Smith, Morrissey and Siouxie & Banshees, perhaps Kurt Cobain and Vedder too. (not necessarily at that order) Perhaps Sinead O'Connor & Tracy Chapman.

Bob Dylan, I donno, for me he sounds kind of musty. The same as Alan Ginsburg -60s hippy radical chic. It doesn't ring true for me. Too obsolete, too far from my problems, Los Angeleno in her early twenties. Yet, Lou Reed and Leonard Cohen, who are in their 60s, their 60s and 70s lyrics sounds very contemporary to me. On the other hand, I saw Phish the other day and those deadheads could live on Mars as well... I just can not relate to those pothead shiny happy guys from Vermont.

As of Morrissey, I think his lyrics is about working class British and about gay males. Bob Dylan was singing about acid and 60s sexual revolution, also he was very political. So the An Observer was right that it is not fair to compare Morrissey and Bob Dylan. The same as to compare Russian figure skater and Koby Bryant: who is better sportsman?

I liked 3 or 4 Dylan songs, he is just too distant a figure for me. Morrissey, he sings for me about my feelings like loneliness, but again, Tori Amos is somebody I would like to be and Morrissey is an open-hearted gay male friend to talk life problems with me.

I'm sorry about incoherent ramblings, but it is my first message here. (I'm using my friend account.)

Sheila (Take a Bow)

 

[CrushingBore]

None of this is poetry!!!

As observer touched on in his/her very lucid reply. We are talking about lyrics, which is quite distinct from poetry in that the lyricist's craft is very different from the poet's.

For example, pick up any given poem and try to set it to music - it is IMPOSSIBLE, it always sounds stupid trying to add musicality to something which has its own musicality already - and it invariably sounds pretentious singing words which were meant to be spoken.

There are lyricists and there are poets, and sometimes the two appear very similar - but it's ridiculous to point out a set of lyrics and say "that's poetry" - it's not. You could write them down, but what you usually get is great lyrics which look bad as poetry, because suddenly they're removed from their original intended structure and context.

Lyricists can write poetry, a la Henry Rollins, but in this particular case they BLOODY WELL SHOULDN'T!

So neither Morrissey, nor Dylan, nor Paul Simon, nor Tori are poets - their work is not poetry, it's lyrics - albeit some of the best ever.

Dylan himself mocked those who were revering him as a "poet" with the following deliberately ham-fisted rhyming;
"I'm a poet/and I know it/hope I don't blow it"

 

[Ears With Feet]

Just 2 Tori poems... Prove me it ain't pure poetry!!!

> As observer touched on in his/her very lucid reply. We are talking about
> lyrics, which is quite distinct from poetry in that the lyricist's craft
> is very different from the poet's.

> For example, pick up any given poem and try to set it to music - it is
> IMPOSSIBLE, it always sounds stupid trying to add musicality to something
> which has its own musicality already - and it invariably sounds
> pretentious singing words which were meant to be spoken.

> There are lyricists and there are poets, and sometimes the two appear very
> similar - but it's ridiculous to point out a set of lyrics and say
> "that's poetry" - it's not. You could write them down, but what
> you usually get is great lyrics which look bad as poetry, because suddenly
> they're removed from their original intended structure and context.

> Lyricists can write poetry, a la Henry Rollins, but in this particular
> case they BLOODY WELL SHOULDN'T!

> So neither Morrissey, nor Dylan, nor Paul Simon, nor Tori are poets -
> their work is not poetry, it's lyrics - albeit some of the best ever.

> Dylan himself mocked those who were revering him as a "poet"
> with the following deliberately ham-fisted rhyming;
> "I'm a poet/and I know it/hope I don't blow it"

I was reading your posts and I'm against war with Iraq too.

But here about Tori I disagree. Read 2 tori poems below
and decide for yourself.... is it poetry or just a pop-lyrics...
Here comes difference between Tori (pagan godess! prime female poet of our times) and Jewel (yuck! sorority anniversary "poems"

If Tori is not only poet but composer and great singer, it does not make her a pop-lyricist.... The same is true about Steven Patrick...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey Jupiter

no one's picking up the phone
guess it's me and me
and this little masochist
she's ready to confess
all the things that I never thought
that she could feel and

hey Jupiter
nothings been the same
so are you gay
are you blue
thought we both could use a friend
to run to
and I thought you'd see with me
you wouldn't have to be something new

sometimes I breathe you in
and I know you know
and sometimes you take a swim
found your writing on my wall
if my hearts soaking wet
Boy your boots can leave a mess

hey Jupiter
nothings been the same
so are you gay
are you blue
thought we both could use a friend
to run to
and I thought I wouldn't have to keep
with you
hiding

thought I knew myself so well
all the dolls I had
took my leather off the shelf
your apocalypse was fab
for a girl who couldn't choose between
the shower or the bath

and I thought I wouldn't have to be
with you
a magazine

no one's picking up the phone
guess it's clear he's gone
and this little masochist
is lifting up her dress
guess I thought I could never feel
the things I feel
hey Jupiter
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crucify.

Every finger in the room is pointing at me
I wanna spit in their faces
Then I get afraid of what that could bring
I got a bowling ball in my stomach
I got a desert in my mouth
Figures that my courage would choose to
sell out now
I've been looking for a savior in these dirty streets
Looking for a savior beneath these dirty sheets
I've been raising up my hands
Drive another nail in
Just what God needs
One more victim
Why do we crucify ourselves
Every day
I crucify myself
Nothing I do is good enough for you
Crucify myself
Every day I crucify myself
And my heart is sick of being in chains
Got a kick for a dog beggin' for love
I gotta have my suffering
So that I can have my cross
I know a cat named Easter
He says will you ever learn
You're just an empty cage girl if you
kill the bird
I've been looking for a savior in these dirty streets
Looking for a savior beneath these dirty sheets
I've been raising up my hands
Drive another nail in
Got enough guilt to start
My own religion
Why do we crucify ourselves
Every day
I crucify myself
Nothing I do is good enough for you
Crucify myself
Every day
I crucify myself
And my heart is sick of being in chains
Please be
Save me
I cry
Looking for a savior in these dirty streets
Looking for a savior beneath these dirty sheets
I've been raising up my hands
Drive another nail in
Where are those angels
When you need them
Why do we crucify ourselves
Every day
I crucify myself
Nothing I do is good enough for you
Crucify myself
Every day I crucify myself
And my heart is sick of being in chains
Why do we chain
Crucify ourselves
Everyday
Never going back again
Crucify myself again
You know
Never going back again to
Crucify myself
Everyday
------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. There is a book Tori Amos Lyrics, Omnibus Press

If you like those 2
Buy it at Tower Records or like.
Also, plenty of Tori lyrics over internet.
Give it a 5 minutes try! Maybe you would like it...

Sheila (Take a Bow)

 

[ellroy]

Re: let me guess, "how soon is now?" is the only smiths song you know.

> I know a great deal about rock music and am an acknowledged authority on
> Morrissey.

what a prick!

 

[sparacus]

Re: Dylan and Morrissey

> I've read the thread below and first I want to say that, yes, "How
> Soon Is Now?" is one of the representative Smiths songs. I've rarely
> been surprised on this board; I was this time, though, after reading a few
> different posters claiming it to be anomalous in The Smiths' canon.
> Musically it's unique, maybe, but Morrissey's words would have needed
> little in the way of alterations to fit comfortably with any of Johnny's
> other compositions.

> That said, I think your comparison of Dylan to Morrissey is completely
> unfair.

> I've read your arguments, and my answer is simply to say that you're
> comparing apples with oranges. Morrissey is not a "lyric" writer
> in the more literary sense. When The Smiths began he expressly stated that
> he wanted to use real language in ways that real people could understand.
> His love of Shelagh Delaney and others of her ilk bears out his proclivity
> for straightforward language. They were the kitchen sink, "angry
> young men" generation whose hallmark was using plainspoken,
> "real" English in films and on the stage. Morrissey has always
> eschewed flaccid rock and roll imagery, coming at his targets head on with
> simple, direct language. That he has a number of cleverly phrased lines
> doesn't take away from the fact that he is using the simplest possible
> language-- the language of pop music, the lowest common denominator. His
> chief innovation was to freshen that language, not reinvent it.

> In Morrissey's words: "When we entered the whole thing I really
> thought it was time for very fundamental language to be used. People
> seemed to be saying things in a way that was too obscure to be grasped by
> people who couldn't really think a great deal about certain situations. I
> always find that the most powerful words are the most fundamental ones,
> and I thought there were things to be said that really hadn't been said
> before. It was always important to me to use lines that hadn't been used
> before, because it wasn't enough to employ the usual pop
> terminology."

> Or: "I think the lyrics are very direct and, as I often say, I feel
> the words haven't been heard before. It's not the usual humdrum
> terminology. It's something quite different. I could never use words that
> rhymed in a traditional way. It would become absolutely pointless."

> Dylan, with whom I am familiar but who is by no means a hero of mine,
> writes more in the vein you described-- his words are closer to true lyric
> poetry. He doesn't come from the same traditions-- Dylan is more of an
> actual poet who took to writing folk songs (which have a long tradition in
> literature as ballads). He was inspired to come to New York City by the
> Beats, who often seamlessly mixed their words with jazz. Later on, Dylan
> was apparently heavily intersted in the Symbolists, whose poetry couldn't
> possibly be more different in form than the pop lyrics in that (or any)
> era of pop music. To be a poet and to use the vernacular of pop and rock
> and roll as a platform must have seemed the most natural thing in the
> world. Coming along after Dylan had shaped rock music (and after much of
> it had become a cliche), Morrissey's driving inspiration was pop music and
> he never wanted more than to write great pop records.

> Personally I find a number of Dylan's songs to be rambling, barely
> coherent (as lyrics, nevermind his voice), and full of stock imagery that
> any seventh grade poetry unit would have no trouble deciphering before
> recess. On the other hand, he has written a number of great songs, and
> no one can deny that his protean output over the years is a sign of a
> dynamic artist. Of course, you could say the same about Sting, Paul Simon,
> and Peter Gabriel-- whose mature incarnations absolutely suck-- and Lou
> Reed-- who's brilliant. So I'm not sure that argument means as much as
> you'd like it to.

> Whatever the merit of his work, obviously there are thousands of other
> people like you-- including, fantastically, the Nobel Prize folks-- who
> find his songs to be a great source of modern American poetry. So I defer
> to their judgment even if I don't share it. But my point is that you can't
> compare the two as writers. Different aims, different methods, different
> inspiration.

> Morrissey is not a poet. He is a gifted pop wordsmith whose sensibility
> appeals to those who have a taste for literature. Really, I don't think
> any pop songwriters should be thought of as poets. The tag
> "poet" is a dubious way of conferring legitimacy on a favorite
> artist. That's all. And although I grant that Dylan may be an exception, I
> question the literary scholarship of anyone who would study a pop lyric as
> a piece of literature separate from the context in which it was written.

> Typically when someone plays me a record and says "This guy is, like,
> a true poet" I know I'm about to hear some of the most godawful
> drivel ever committed to paper. Why not just allow them to be what they
> are-- pop songwriters-- and judge them by that craft's rules and
> traditions? Do that and you realize that Morrissey and Dylan are both
> gifted but incomparably different writers who both deserve admiration. The
> only way to affirm Dylan's superiority is to set them apart from the pop
> tradition and view them as "poets", which I reject.
> Decontextualizing them for the purposes of comparison instantly renders
> the comparison useless.

A very interesting response. You may be right in arguing against my comparison of the two. But you accept that Morrissey is essentially just a pop lyricist and Dylan is more of a true poet. And that makes Dylan superior surely.

 

[david]

how soon is now?

> well i'm obviously from the younger generation of fans, so maybe that has
> something to do with why it doesn't strike me as much as it does you. i
> mean, i grew up listening to depressing music, so the sentiments in hsin
> weren't exactly new to me. plus, i grew up thinking of that song as being
> some random eighties song. i thought it was unique and interesting, but
> there was other music i preferred. i guess i've never gotten over it and
> as i said before, i know there are other fans who feel similarly.
> additionally, there are people whose views on the song change constantly.
> (i guess i might be one of them. sometimes i listen to that song over and
> over, other times, i skip over it.) for example, a good friend of mine
> once told me she didn't like hsin? because it was not at all
> representative of the smiths' output, in her opinion. i asked her again
> recently and she gushed and gushed over. hsin? does speak to me on some
> levels. it's just not my favorite and i apologize for getting so uppity
> about it, but damn, that guy annoys the hell out of me.

hmmm, I'm 18 so obviously a young Moz fan, and when I first heard HSIN it changed my life, I never bought into all of this misery-music, but Moz had wit and charm that was impossible not to love. HSIN is not one of my favourite Moz songs, but its pretty good, and a great way to gain new fans. I recently lent my "Hatful of hollow" to a "How soon is Now" admirer, and he is now a big fan. Bizarrely, his favourite song is "Accept Yourself"

 

[GenderNectar]

Re: Observer, What do you think about Tori Amos poetry?

> If nothing else I reckon she's better than Jewel.

Good lord! I beg of you -- please don't compare Tori to Jewel. Jewel is an absolute travesty. I wish she would just go away.

 

[Patrick McCann]

> OK - lets be honest now. Moz is a great lyricist - witty and emotive. But
> Dylan is far superior in his use of complex poetics and imagery. I mean
> 'How Soon Is Now' lacks the vision of 'Mr Tambourine Man' or 'Ballad of a
> Thin Man'.

I'm not biting. This is obviously a wind-up.

 

[CrushingBore]

Nope - sorry these read like lyrics (great ones, mind you)

case in point;
> sometimes I breathe you in
> and I know you know
> and sometimes you take a swim
> found your writing on my wall
> if my hearts soaking wet
> Boy your boots can leave a mess

The meter's all over the place as written word.
I dearly love Ms. Amos as much as I loathe that Jewel creature, but I maintain it's wrong and unfair to expect lyrics (written to be sung) to stand up as poetry (written to be read).
LOL

 

[Mindy]

Re: how soon is now?

> hmmm, I'm 18 so obviously a young Moz fan, and when I first heard HSIN it
> changed my life, I never bought into all of this misery-music, but Moz had
> wit and charm that was impossible not to love. HSIN is not one of my
> favourite Moz songs, but its pretty good, and a great way to gain new
> fans. I recently lent my "Hatful of hollow" to a "How soon
> is Now" admirer, and he is now a big fan. Bizarrely, his favourite
> song is "Accept Yourself"

i didn't mean all younger fans or potential fans felt that way. i was using myself as as example, although i do know others who feel the same. i heard hsin? years and years ago (i'd venture to say a decade ago at least) and thought it was cool and i did look the smiths up a few times, but i just wasn't interested enough to buy an album because, while i liked the song, i thought all the songs would be that way and that didn't sound like fun to me.

as for the "accept yourself" thing, my friend's husband is obsessed with that song. i know, it seems like a random choice. however, i think all of us have occasionally gone through periods where we've had a new list of smiths/moz favorites every week or inexplicably latch onto the most random ones imaginable (this same friend whose husband likes AY went through a phase in which she listened to "golden lights" 24/7).

 

[Mindy]

Re: Observer, What do you think about Tori Amos poetry?

> Good lord! I beg of you -- please don't compare Tori to Jewel. Jewel is an
> absolute travesty. I wish she would just go away.

lol, tara! did you read any of jewel's poetry in "a night without armor"? dear god, it was some of the worst poetry i'd ever seen and i edited my high school's poetry magazine so i've seen a lot of bad poetry.

 

[An observer]

Re: Dylan and Morrissey

No, Dylan is not superior at all. There is an assumed hierarchy behind your judgment: Morrissey and Dylan are on the same scale-- that of writing-- and that Morrissey is "just" a pop lyricist on one end, while Dylan is at the other, higher end, as a "poet". This is exactly what I was talking about when I wrote that fans want to exalt their heroes by applying the term "poet", convinced that this somehow elevates them above the filthy throng of mediocre songwriters. They aren't on the same scale any more than a dramatist and a novelist are, though both of course are writers.

As a rock and roll apologist who also likes highbrow literature, I understand this completely. I think everyone implicitly understands that pop and rock and roll are essentially trash, degraded forms of art. It stems from the middle class guilt over preferring popular to high art. If you say, "I like rock music", it's too broad, it encompasses too much. "Rock music" may mean REO Speedwagon or Pink Floyd, Dylan or Don McLean, Sex Pistols or Eric Clapton. I've observed that most people with a passion for pop/rock music always attempt to distinguish their pet artists by claiming for them the status of "poet" or "true artist", a kind of prophet who transmits wisdom in the tongue of the masses. And this is nowhere more true than among the legion of fans who worship Dylan, the Beatles, Jim Morrison, Roger Waters, etc. You can also see it in many Morrissey fans (and, er, Tori Amos fans as well, apparently).

The point of my first post was that to claim this "higher" status for Dylan or Morrissey is completely specious. I don't believe that rock and roll songwriters transcend or should be expected to transcend the medium in which they work. Now, Dylan I'm sure has written poetry qua poetry, and he has the stamp of approval from various literary lights such as Allen Ginsberg, so it's possible to say that he is as much a poet as a songwriter. That's fine. But Morrissey has always been "just" a pop songwriter, which is why it's unfair to compare them. You don't disparage one architect for building single-family homes and laud another who builds skyscrapers just because one seems bigger and grander than another, and both work in the same field (architecture). The comparison is pointless because each has different ends.

Is a poet "better" than a mere songwriter? Many would say so. But, then, we might just as well point out that there are several hundred, if not thousands of poets who are much finer than Dylan. It all depends on how you want to judge these people. In the end the safest thing to do is look at what Morrissey has tried to accomplish in a specific field, and what Dylan has done in the same field, i.e. "Mr. Tambourine Man" versus "Reel Around The Fountain". Even then you'd have to throw out eras of history, the state of music when each writer began working, cultural conditions, etc. The whole argument becomes pointless. But if you say "Dylan as a pop songwriter is better than Morrissey as a pop songwriter", then that's closer to a reasonable judgment. Calling one better because he's a poet is just wrong.

All I can say is that I prefer Morrissey. Which one is better I believe is impossible to determine. If I were to judge Dylan as a songwriter, I would say he's inconsistent and often needlessly obscure, whereas I think Morrissey (especially with The Smiths) has done much more with less ambition. He hasn't tried to be a "poet" and I think his lyrics are all the richer because of it. In my opinion, there's nothing more uproarious than seeing some dope-addled idiot trying to channel Rimbaud while keeping one eye on the hottie in the third row. On the other hand, if I were a student of literature comparing the two writers' words on paper, as poems, I would give the nod to Dylan, even though I would have serious reservations about calling him a good poet, let alone a great one. I just don't see any need to make these comparisons. One is unfair because it ignores context, the other, as I said, is like comparing apples and oranges.