Morrissey fans are about to give up on him – Johnny Marr, please stage an intervention

countthree

Well-Known Member
You need to look at that from the Muslim perspective, though. The fact is that gay people keep groups of children locked in basements so they can rape them. Or, at least that might have happened once. Or it might be an internet myth, or I might have just made it up. But that's not what's important. What's important is that, obviously, all the gays are responsible for that. Plus, the guy out of Savage Garden is one, and they were bloody awful. So, when you think about it, why not throw gays off a roof? It's only once a year, after all, and they eat the corpses and drink the blood, so it's not like anything goes to waste.

Talking about perspectives... why don't we try to look at things from the perspective of Christians living in predominantly Muslims countries. That would be very interesting, considering the persecution they suffer.

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/
 

Cornflakes

"A bit iffy" ★★☆☆☆ - AV Club
Talking about perspectives... why don't we try to look at things from the perspective of Christians living in predominantly Muslims countries. That would be very interesting, considering the persecution they suffer.

https://www.opendoorsusa.org/christian-persecution/world-watch-list/

Again, completely justifiable. Christians are all personally responsible for acts of terror committed against Muslim countries and their allies, such as the Crusades, the colonization of North Africa and getting drunk and needing rescuing from a fountain in Sharm El-Sheik. Sure, a lot of them will claim to represent a so-called "religion of peace", but they all look the same, don't they? How are you supposed to tell a nice integrated one from one that has a trebuchet under his dufflecoat? Persecuting Christians is the only way Muslims can be sure they will be safe. If you're not lucky enough to live somewhere where there are any actual Christians to persecute, why not just go on the internet and regurgitate a lot of distortions and half-truths about them? If you don't, they'll have taken over before you know it, and no-one will be safe from the bumpers of cars driven by women.

Surveys have shown, though, that nearly all Muslims get more of a kick out of throwing gays off roofs than persecuting Christians.
 
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Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><><><><>
'Morrissey fans are about to give up on him'

^:laughing:




don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. - M


:tiphat:
 

Cornflakes

"A bit iffy" ★★☆☆☆ - AV Club
Well, you know, gays and lesbian are highly considered by all the extremists. Easy target.

Quite. I think Oswald Mosley put it best: "A political party must capitalize on emotion and have a hate plank. And today, the best hate plank is the Jews."

Of course, things have moved on a bit, and Jews have fallen down the pecking order a bit, given that there are other softer targets. Gay people have never really made it to the top of the list, though.

Anyway, I can see from your posts in another thread that you are just starting to backtrack a little. Nowhere near enough yet, but it's good to have made a start, so I'll leave you alone with your thoughts for a bit.
 

g23

Always crashing in the same car
But I AM a minority too.
There's only one of me, as far as I know.
Which might be a blessing in disguise for the world, for all I know.
But that world doesn't deserve my blessing so why should I? It can go f*** itself.
I am happy for you, being not afraid and personally I am not afraid either, yet.
But many of the persons being killed were not afraid either.
Seriously, you can't compare the outcome of both beliefs. As bad and dangerous as Evangelicals are, they never threw gays from the roofs to celebrate the new year.
I'll put it this way- I, g23, do not trust the motives of anybody who looks to an ancient book of text written prior to any major science- or education at all, really, landing on the human race as a whole. When the red letters of the bible go ignored, despite being the supposed truth and way to live lives.
That old Ghandi quote on Christians. You know the one. Look into the eyes of any child who put their trust in their "Father" only to be raped and denied help when they sought it. Or the eyes of any gay person, who upon coming out to their families were suddenly dead to them. Look to the history books and see the eyes of the black people who wanted only to be treated as equals. Look to the distant history, and see the crusades, of which I can't help but feel are coming back around. Maybe someone should throw me off of a rooftop. It would be easier than wading through the shit and muck of the human condition.
 

countthree

Well-Known Member
I'll put it this way- I, g23, do not trust the motives of anybody who looks to an ancient book of text written prior to any major science- or education at all, really, landing on the human race as a whole. When the red letters of the bible go ignored, despite being the supposed truth and way to live lives.
That old Ghandi quote on Christians. You know the one. Look into the eyes of any child who put their trust in their "Father" only to be raped and denied help when they sought it. Or the eyes of any gay person, who upon coming out to their families were suddenly dead to them. Look to the history books and see the eyes of the black people who wanted only to be treated as equals. Look to the distant history, and see the crusades, of which I can't help but feel are coming back around. Maybe someone should throw me off of a rooftop. It would be easier than wading through the shit and muck of the human condition.

Maybe you forgot the common people who have to endure and sustain the indignity of being subjects of self proclaimed kings and queens, wasting time and resources begging for a medal to validate their talents and achievements. Or even all those women around the world who have to tolerate being treated like objects, beaten and sometimes killed by their partners or families. Yes, the crusades are coming back, but we are the quarry.
 

countthree

Well-Known Member
Quite. I think Oswald Mosley put it best: "A political party must capitalize on emotion and have a hate plank. And today, the best hate plank is the Jews."

Of course, things have moved on a bit, and Jews have fallen down the pecking order a bit, given that there are other softer targets. Gay people have never really made it to the top of the list, though.

Anyway, I can see from your posts in another thread that you are just starting to backtrack a little. Nowhere near enough yet, but it's good to have made a start, so I'll leave you alone with your thoughts for a bit.

I don't understand what you mean by "backtrack a little".
 

g23

Always crashing in the same car
Maybe you forgot the common people who have to endure and sustain the indignity of being subjects of self proclaimed kings and queens, wasting time and resources begging for a medal to validate their talents and achievements. Or even all those women around the world who have to tolerate being treated like objects, beaten and sometimes killed by their partners or families. Yes, the crusades are coming back, but we are the quarry.
I don't forget the common people, I am the common people. I agree with your statement here to a degree, but I can't stand by while Muslims get the stick for what is a global epidemic of hatred, with aggressors on all sides of the equation. Just because extreme acts make good photo ops doesn't take away from the fact that atrocity is happening all the time, with or without a camera pointed at it. But as we all know by now, there are no white terrorists, only "lone wolves" and "mentally ill."
 

Quando quando quando

Well-Known Member
I'll put it this way- I, g23, do not trust the motives of anybody who looks to an ancient book of text written prior to any major science- or education at all, really, landing on the human race as a whole. When the red letters of the bible go ignored, despite being the supposed truth and way to live lives.
That old Ghandi quote on Christians. You know the one. Look into the eyes of any child who put their trust in their "Father" only to be raped and denied help when they sought it. Or the eyes of any gay person, who upon coming out to their families were suddenly dead to them. Look to the history books and see the eyes of the black people who wanted only to be treated as equals. Look to the distant history, and see the crusades, of which I can't help but feel are coming back around. Maybe someone should throw me off of a rooftop. It would be easier than wading through the shit and muck of the human condition.

I always thought and have been raised in the "belief" I, me as a person, an individual, am free to think and to be whatever the hell I like living in a liberal society, but all with in the laws of that society.
If I get the idea, which I get now that that becomes no longer possible, and that it is under thread, that individuals are seen as weak, vulnerable and potential victims of any group, organization, government, religiously motivated imbeciles, I fall back on very basic instincts for survival.

That is hiding in a group to feel stronger and less weak. If there are such very big issues at stake I want to fight for it. I won't surrender.
I have a big problem though with that as the group ideology is many times not in the interest of the group or me as an individual.
In groups the dominant types fight for the position of the leader, the boss. The position of power.
They are very willing to offer the followers or less dominant members. They intrigue and put the other members up against eachother. So the group may think they are all in it for the sake of the group but in fact they are used for the interests of the dominant leader. Ruthlessly and without any consideration. Until there is a new competitor challenging that leader and winning the competition and the whole f***ing process starts again.

But what other choices do I have?
None. I am not Jesus Christ offering the other cheek when someone crushed the other.
I am not a pacifist.
I will have to fight to defend my life.
I may lose but at least I have fought and I won't have to blame myself for not doing anything at all.
There won't be a paradise for me where there are 72 virgins waiting for me.
Thank gawd.
 

g23

Always crashing in the same car
I always thought and have been raised in the "belief" I, me as a person, an individual, am free to think and to be whatever the hell I like living in a liberal society, but all with in the laws of that society.
If I get the idea, which I get now that that becomes no longer possible, and that it is under thread, that individuals are seen as weak, vulnerable and potential victims of any group, organization, government, religiously motivated imbeciles, I fall back on very basic instincts for survival.

That is hiding in a group to feel stronger and less weak. If there are such very big issues at stake I want to fight for it. I won't surrender.
I have a big problem though with that as the group ideology is many times not in the interest of the group or me as an individual.
In groups the dominant types fight for the position of the leader, the boss. The position of power.
They are very willing to offer the followers or less dominant members. They intrigue and put the other members up against eachother. So the group may think they are all in it for the sake of the group but in fact they are used for the interests of the dominant leader. Ruthlessly and without any consideration. Until there is a new competitor challenging that leader and winning the competition and the whole f***ing process starts again.

But what other choices do I have?
None. I am not Jesus Christ offering the other cheek when someone crushed the other.
I am not a pacifist.
I will have to fight to defend my life.
I may lose but at least I have fought and I won't have to blame myself for not doing anything at all.
There won't be a paradise for me where there are 72 virgins waiting for me.
Thank gawd.
You raise a great point here. I have a real problem with violent mob mentality. I recently lost a very close friend of 26 years because of a political argument on the topic. I said "Yes, I believe that Nazis deserve a punch in the face, or worse. The second you walk out of the door wearing an armband, or sieg-heiling, you open yourself up for any number of bad reactions. Freedom of speech is a government right and it doesn't mean someone won't kick your ass for what you say." So evidently I'm a left wing nutter aligned with antifa, who advocates for group violence and chaos, when my point was that personal accountability has to factor in, and sometimes bad things happen to assholes. When you have large groups of people smashing things up and getting the follow the leader syndrome you talk about, it gets ugly quickly.
Cult of personality happens in great and small ways in the world.
 
N

Nathalie

Guest
Are you sure? I don't defend any radical opinion, but some radical views are more dangerous than others, at least in our contemporary times.


OK but precision : “views and actions

These are not only the “views” which are radical, these are the actions which are radical too. This is precisely the reason for which people confuse the muslims and the extremists muslims.

We can say that an atheist has a radical point of view on God and any religion. As long as he does not have the idea to impose atheism on the others by exterminating the others, the radical atheism doesn’t exist. I would say that atheism is the only perception of the origin of the man who has never been radical in his actions, contrary to any religion at a given moment of the history of humanity. If I am mistaken on that, somebody can give me an example, I will accept it. The atheist makes use of other tools to demonstrate his point of views (and to demonstrate is not to impose by actions). In the worst case, an atheist will be virulent in his words.

Racism and xenophobia are concepts invented by the human being for better hating themselves in the name of the religions and of the political programs. I could develop more on that. In this point of view, I’m agreed too with the person called “Sister I’m a poet”.

PS : I’m not atheist. Agnostic.
 

Quando quando quando

Well-Known Member
No, you're an individual within a group. We are discussing minority groups in the religious, ethnic, racial sense.

Also, your attitude about the world, if it were dominant, ultimately results a zero sum game. If people already know that their own citizens won't ever care about them, or their issues then those people become justified in aggressively obtaining, and wielding power for their own protection. They can't afford to compromise, and consider your interests if they conflict. They know their opponent doesn't care.

This kind of thinking may make sense to a resentful shut-in, who is detached from the human experience, but it's a disaster for any society that hopes to avoid civil war, or an easy take-over.

If you don't care if others burn, then no one should care if someone burns you.

" If people already know that their own citizens won't ever care about them, or their issues then those people become justified in aggressively obtaining, and wielding power for their own protection."

That is exactly what I will do than.
If others don't care if I burn, (do they actually care?) Why should I care if they burn?
Come to think of it, they can burn.
I will defend myself, I am not getting on my knees for anyone.
Rather die standing than living on my knees.
Cheerio.
 

Cornflakes

"A bit iffy" ★★☆☆☆ - AV Club
" If people already know that their own citizens won't ever care about them, or their issues then those people become justified in aggressively obtaining, and wielding power for their own protection."

That is exactly what I will do than.
If others don't care if I burn, (do they actually care?) Why should I care if they burn?
Come to think of it, they can burn.
I will defend myself, I am not getting on my knees for anyone.
Rather die standing than living on my knees.
Cheerio.

Fine. So who are "they" in this scenario? And have you spoken them to find out what their attitude to you burning is?
 

Quando quando quando

Well-Known Member
People are always less afraid of their own extremists because they're much more familiar with them. Right Wing extremism has already reared its ugly head across Europe, and America. These groups also identify with, and make it a point to remind everyone that they are defending their Christian heritage. If you think that's going away, or isn't going to become bigger as demographics shift, then you need a history lesson, and some people skills.

You're supposed to head these things off, not wait for them to metastasize.

You're anger and your panic is visceral, and tribal. It's being aroused by a small minority who you have a microscopic chance of ever being touched by. You have a much greater chance of your life being affected by your own citizens, and the politicians they elect.

By turning this into a single issue voting platform, you are making yourselves much more vulnerable to more immediate threats. You are letting these extremists rip your societies apart with very little effort. You voted to leave the European Union over immigration when your immigration levels are not likely to change because of it. So, now you have handicapped your economic opportunities, and have permanently divided the public for nothing, or very little. Now you get to watch it rot.

I hate to say it, but looking back on the West since 9/11, it has become apparent that Osama Bin Laden won. It doesn't matter that he's dead, or if any extremist leader is dead. He got the predicted reaction, and he now has the world living in fear indefinitely without much effort. He has an endless supply of troops, and he has you fighting on his terms.

By all means feel anger, feel sadness, feel determined about fighting them where they arise, but don't let them get so inside your head that you get baited into eating yourselves.

Not mentioning ultra left violence roaring it's ugly head in Europe for a long time proves you are biased and ideologically brainwashed by the lefty loonies.
But you might of course have a completely morally good explanation for it as it was only in defense of what you consider to be right. Collateral damage, eh? What a relieve for the victims and their loved ones.
Did it ever occur to you the swing in political appreciation from left to right through out Europe might be a reaction to the massive problems that were created due to the dominant leftie loonies politics?
I reckon you see it just the other way around.
 

Quando quando quando

Well-Known Member
You need to look at that from the Muslim perspective, though. The fact is that gay people keep groups of children locked in basements so they can rape them. Or, at least that might have happened once. Or it might be an internet myth, or I might have just made it up. But that's not what's important. What's important is that, obviously, all the gays are responsible for that. Plus, the guy out of Savage Garden is one, and they were bloody awful. So, when you think about it, why not throw gays off a roof? It's only once a year, after all, and they eat the corpses and drink the blood, so it's not like anything goes to waste.

I don't need to look at it from the Muslim perspective.
I am not one.
I look at it from my OWN perspective and although I realize other people see it differently and there are going to be conflicts of interests, I am not willing to change it even before the exchange of views has begun.
Freedom of speech and freedom of religion is at stake here.
How tolerant are we going to be against intolerance?
 

g23

Always crashing in the same car
I don't need to look at it from the Muslim perspective.
I am not one.
I look at it from my OWN perspective and although I realize other people see it differently and there are going to be conflicts of interests, I am not willing to change it even before the exchange of views has begun.
Freedom of speech and freedom of religion is at stake here.
How tolerant are we going to be against intolerance?
You paint a whole with one brush. Don't you believe that at the root of it, most Muslims want the same things the rest of the world do? Basic freedom, safety, opportunity for themselves and their children, a roof over their heads, food in their stomachs, and maybe a few nice things at home? But for a random squirt of sperm meeting the random egg, you could be them, and vise versa. When I see a family destroyed for any reason, children dead, weeping mothers- I am very quick to realize that could be my child, or my family if not for geography and circumstance.
 

Quando quando quando

Well-Known Member
I don't forget the common people, I am the common people. I agree with your statement here to a degree, but I can't stand by while Muslims get the stick for what is a global epidemic of hatred, with aggressors on all sides of the equation. Just because extreme acts make good photo ops doesn't take away from the fact that atrocity is happening all the time, with or without a camera pointed at it. But as we all know by now, there are no white terrorists, only "lone wolves" and "mentally ill."

" there are no white terrorists, only "lone wolves" and "mentally ill."

That made me chuckle cause whenever there is another attack all authorities and experts start saying it is was only a lone wolf or homegrown terrorism, implying we had only ourselves to blame.
After investigations many times it was not a lone wolf but a conspiracy, a terrorist cell.
 

g23

Always crashing in the same car
" there are no white terrorists, only "lone wolves" and "mentally ill."

That made me chuckle cause whenever there is another attack all authorities and experts start saying it is was only a lone wolf or homegrown terrorism, implying we had only ourselves to blame.
After investigations many times it was not a lone wolf but a conspiracy, a terrorist cell.
It's not making me chuckle. It's a double standard that disturbs the hell out of me. I am viewing it through the lens of being American, but we are doing a great job of killing each other without even needing to import our terrorists. All because of an Amendment that was drafted when the most savage gun was a f***ing musket. Kind of hard to wipe out a whole crowd of people with a musket.
 

Quando quando quando

Well-Known Member
OK but precision : “views and actions

These are not only the “views” which are radical, these are the actions which are radical too. This is precisely the reason for which people confuse the muslims and the extremists muslims.

We can say that an atheist has a radical point of view on God and any religion. As long as he does not have the idea to impose atheism on the others by exterminating the others, the radical atheism doesn’t exist. I would say that atheism is the only perception of the origin of the man who has never been radical in his actions, contrary to any religion at a given moment of the history of humanity. If I am mistaken on that, somebody can give me an example, I will accept it. The atheist makes use of other tools to demonstrate his point of views (and to demonstrate is not to impose by actions). In the worst case, an atheist will be virulent in his words.

Racism and xenophobia are concepts invented by the human being for better hating themselves in the name of the religions and of the political programs. I could develop more on that. In this point of view, I’m agreed too with the person called “Sister I’m a poet”.

PS : I’m not atheist. Agnostic.

" I would say that atheism is the only perception of the origin of the man who has never been radical in his actions, contrary to any religion at a given moment of the history of humanity. If I am mistaken on that, somebody can give me an example, I will accept it "

From the Russian revolution and during Lenin and Stalin years and even long after that, religion of any kind was brutally and merciless persecuted. Many hundreds of thousands of people were killed. Now it might be they weren't only for their religion but the political system was such as built on the adagium of Marx, that religion was and is the opium for (or of) the people and it was seen as a thread to the road to the communist paradise.
That ideological system itself became more and more the same as a believe-system, and because the secular and atheist propaganda was forced on so many people, with so many deaths and torture the results are the same.

Let me quote a now not popular anymore psychiatrist, philosopher and scientifically considered doubtful man.
Sigmund Freud said the only reason that could be a possible explanation for the existence of religion is a collective psychosis. As he understood people are not only rational but irrational too.
His ideas came more from a literary and imaginational world than from a real scientific view.
 
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