Morrissey as religious icon

[Iona Mink]

I thought I would start of thread from a discussion that was being held in the Post Whatever You Are Thinking thread. (Mods feel free to move this to off topic if you feel it doesn't warrant a General Discussion thread)

Here are a few excepts of the discussion to give as background.

I think someone should start a thread about Morrissey as a religious icon, if not in word certainly in deed.

I am surprised at how many fans speak about him with almost religious reverence, possibly without even realising it.

I would do it myself but I suspect it won't get lift off.

You mean like every thread Crystal Geezer has ever made?

No it was following something you had said about people feeling they have their own special personal and private relationship with him which reminded of what people say when they are talking about God or Jesus.

People feel Morrissey has saved them, been for them when they were in need of comfort. Reminded me again of Jesus ie, personal saviour.

People also speak of him in revered tones and then worry about upsetting him for fear of his wrath or to keep with religious terms, they he might smite them.

It just got me wondering about the extent that modern day celebrities have become today's religious icons. Not saying anything revelatory I know, but I though it might make for an interesting thread.

My threads touch on the technicalities of the whole being Jesus thing, not the reverential rapturous stuff, though I totally support that. All come all ye faithful and whatnot.

I felt that way about him for a long time, not necessarily in a sense of deifying him, but almost. It shifts after you have sex for the first time...

But I still held him in very high regard, even in contrast to the relationships I was having in my 20s, but as you get older you realize that he's just a guy who poops like everyone else. He isn't above anyone.

The correlation between celebrity/religion is theorised in academic writing on fan studies. There has been a couple of papers and book chapters on Morrissey fans and religion published recently.
I agree that it is interesting, although it is not something I am entirely comfortable with.

My understanding in the realms of the fandom being a faux religion has always been the devotion that fans show and that fans form a congregation to worship (almost) at the altar of a celebrity, concerts as a modern day mass etc. What sort of struck me is how much people relate to Morrissey as a supernatural figure. I guess for me it is changing the focus of behaviour of fans to the supposed behaviour of the celebrity (real or imagined and the interpretation).

I'll admit, I've not kept up to date with academic writing on the subject so maybe this is just new and novel to me and old hat for everyone else (wouldn't be the first time!).

Why does it give you discomfort?

I just thought it was an interesting line of discussion and yes, I am still expecting it to be as buoyant as a lead balloon. Thanks.

 

[I'd Love To]

At face value, it would be audacious to even think of him a religious icon. When it comes to religion, you can't really stretch the meanings of things to fit what you want. In other words, you can say that he saved people, but don't attach a religious connotation to him. He did nothing literally holy or literally spiritual through his music.

However, through his music he does employ qualities that religion ultimately sets out to solve. I think that Skylarker hit it on the head in saying that his music provides a certain clarity and does a good job of comparing religion to art.

 

[Iona Mink]

Thanks both for trying to give the thread the kiss of life.

I wasn't thinking anyone would say yes, he is my own personal saviour but perhaps an argument for doing things and a different way of thinking about it. I mean, does anyone have an area in their house for posters, memorabilia etc a.k.a a shrine? What about the thought of his shirt being some kind of relic similar to the wood from the cross. Or would that be considered memorabilia even though it is a mere scrap?

Perhaps it's an obvious thread and I should let it die its inevitable painful death.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

I wasn't thinking anyone would say yes, he is my own personal saviour but perhaps an argument for doing things and a different way of thinking about it. I mean, does anyone have an area in their house for posters, memorabilia etc a.k.a a shrine? What about the thought of his shirt being some kind of relic similar to the wood from the cross. Or would that be considered memorabilia even though it is a mere scrap?

Perhaps it makes me less of a fan, but I personally collect Morrissey memorabilia solely because I know it is going to double in value once he dies...and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

People see no worth in you, oh, but I do...$$$

PS - I am going to make a small fortune when Hulk Hogan dies.

 

[Iona Mink]

Perhaps it makes me less of a fan, but I personally collect Morrissey memorabilia solely because I know it is going to double in value once he dies...and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

People see no worth in you, oh, but I do...$$$

PS - I am going to make a small fortune when Hulk Hogan dies.

Ah the long term game. Shrewd.

What are some of the less conventional things have you collected?

 

[The Harsh Truth]

Perhaps it makes me less of a fan, but I personally collect Morrissey memorabilia solely because I know it is going to double in value once he dies...and I mean that in the nicest way possible.

People see no worth in you, oh, but I do...$$$

PS - I am going to make a small fortune when Hulk Hogan dies.

No perhaps about it, it makes you less of a fan and more of an asshole, which I didn't think was possible. Well done, keep up the good work!

 

[Deleted member 1074]

Ah the long term game. Shrewd.

What are some of the less conventional things have you collected?

Well, I wouldn't say I have anything less conventional...I just basically buy two of everything. One I open, one I don't. That goes for vinyls, CDs, videos, DVDs, shirts, posters and such...I own his entire back catalog Smiths and solo on vinyl (what is actually available in it) and CD, reissues and originals, but I'm not a rabid collector to the point where I have 30 versions of each album and single each with slight variations. I think the value is incredibly high for things mint in the package. The two things I am very pleased with that I own is a piece of shirt from the Hollywood Bowl 2007 and the autographed cardboard cutout available on the last two tours that has been limited to 50 (though I get very annoyed staring at it on our wall).

 

[Peterb]

No perhaps about it, it makes you less of a fan and more of an asshole, which I didn't think was possible. Well done, keep up the good work!

Hey Harsh, why on earth does the collecting of memorabilia make you think poorly of Vivahate? Seems like a pretty normal pursuite to me.

 

[Deleted member 1074]

No perhaps about it, it makes you less of a fan and more of an asshole, which I didn't think was possible. Well done, keep up the good work!

Now, now...I've never underestimated your vapidness and stupidity. Please, don't underestimate my assholeishness.

 

[Peterb]

OK, I'll bite, as everyone is ignoring this very valid thread. I probably won't word this very well as I am concurrently trying to fix a computer for a friend, but I'll have a go.

I think that certain very intelligent people, or people who have suffered greatly, or have been persecuted...or the insane, or the ill...or a combination thereof...these people become very interested in the idea of transcendence, or something more, some higher plane, some level of existence that ameliorates and makes up for and justifies their earthly plight.

There's nothing wrong with that; I'm not criticizing that endeavor, simply saying that I see it as a factor in certain subgroups, psychologically.

Anyway, essentially, religion offers the same thing as art: escape from this finite life, victory over death, redemption of from sin and shortcomings, the promise of eternal life, a great understanding of human existence, etc...and all major religions have some kind of iconographic figurehead.

So essentially, some people use art the way that others use religion. I can think of very few artistic figureheads, and certainly very few within the spectrum of pop music, that come closer to the concept of a "holy person" or a "martyr" or a "patron saint" than Morrissey. Therefore it is only natural that many people, especially when young, deify him. They see in him not only a perfect understanding and a perfect sympathizing with their own plights, but also a victory over them, a conquest, an assimilation of human ills and sorrows that is then turned into artistic expression. Morrissey becomes a holy person in that in a mortal body he somehow bridges the gap between mortal and immortal through his art.

I can't really take this much further because it's already unbearably pretentious enough and I kind of want to delete this post, but yeah, I guess if I had to make something of it, that's what I would say.

Hey Skylarker, another thoughtful essay from my favourite poster of the moment.
The obsessions one can have when young can have a religious fervour. Plastering your walls with posters creates something that can be regarded as a shrine. As a kid my obsession was football (if you're american, soccer) and I certainly transformed my bedroom into a celebration of the beautiful game. Everything I did and thought was passed through the prism of football. I found your comment about these behaviour patterns passing after losing your cherry very perceptive. I lost the obsession once I discovered girls although to be more accurate. the obsession simply moved on to sex, albeit unrequited.
Ofcourse the danger here is that the objects of the obsession are given attributes no mortal could ever achieve (just like religion).
Look, I'm not stating anything interesting here at all. Skylarker said it all.

 

[prisoner77]

I know Morrissey is not going to save me. He just helps me get through the day.

 

[I'd Love To]

I know Morrissey is not going to save me. He just helps me get through the day.

More accurate for me as well.

 

[I'd Love To]

Thanks both for trying to give the thread the kiss of life.

I wasn't thinking anyone would say yes, he is my own personal saviour but perhaps an argument for doing things and a different way of thinking about it. I mean, does anyone have an area in their house for posters, memorabilia etc a.k.a a shrine? What about the thought of his shirt being some kind of relic similar to the wood from the cross. Or would that be considered memorabilia even though it is a mere scrap?

Perhaps it's an obvious thread and I should let it die its inevitable painful death.

Don't kick yourself too hard. It is an interesting topic that I think many people could misunderstand. This thread makes some interesting points.

 

[bored]

PS - I am going to make a small fortune when Hulk Hogan dies.

no one will know.. Brooke will just take over the franchise. she's man enough for it.

 

[I'd Love To]

no one will know.. Brooke will just take over the franchise. She's man enough for it.

zing!

 

[M-in-Oz]

apologies for taking so long to get around to answering this thread.
When I said "it makes me uncomfortable", that was a personal response. I have a difficult time accepting (one) of my friends new-found belief in religion. Yet, if I am truly analysing myself, it could be argued that I share some of the same behaviours as she does. Just Morrissey is my focal point rather than God or Jesus.
I dislike the language sometimes used to describe 'obsession', icon, deity, disciple etc as to me, they are foreign (in the sense that I have not had a scrap of religion in my life) words. I don't want to have the discourse of religion enter my Morrissey fandom.

There has been more recently, I think, a stronger link between religion/celebrity/fandom. There is a chapter in the essay collection "Why Pamper Life's Complexities..." which looks at Morrissey, Catholicism and the religious discourse of fandom. The 'pilgrimage' to Salford Lads Club for example. In the book "Morrissey: Fandoms, Representations and Identities", there is a chapter which describes the physical poses that Morrissey makes in photographs and a connection to religious iconery. The outstretched hand, or the hand on the heart. These would be worth seeking out if you wanted to read more on the topic.

 

[Worm]

apologies for taking so long to get around to answering this thread.
When I said "it makes me uncomfortable", that was a personal response. I have a difficult time accepting (one) of my friends new-found belief in religion. Yet, if I am truly analysing myself, it could be argued that I share some of the same behaviours as she does. Just Morrissey is my focal point rather than God or Jesus.
I dislike the language sometimes used to describe 'obsession', icon, deity, disciple etc as to me, they are foreign (in the sense that I have not had a scrap of religion in my life) words. I don't want to have the discourse of religion enter my Morrissey fandom.

There has been more recently, I think, a stronger link between religion/celebrity/fandom. There is a chapter in the essay collection "Why Pamper Life's Complexities..." which looks at Morrissey, Catholicism and the religious discourse of fandom. The 'pilgrimage' to Salford Lads Club for example. In the book "Morrissey: Fandoms, Representations and Identities", there is a chapter which describes the physical poses that Morrissey makes in photographs and a connection to religious iconery. The outstretched hand, or the hand on the heart. These would be worth seeking out if you wanted to read more on the topic.

Your experience testifies to the reason why we have not been able to get rid of religion. The many ways people practice religion may be flawed, and religions are often ridiculous and dangerous. Nonetheless, the many varieties of religious worship, including those we call secular, demonstrate that human beings have needs which will continue long after "God" is dubunked. With this in mind, we could perhaps benefit from looking at existing forms of worship with more open-mindedness.

 

[CrystalGeezer]

In one word, I believe the answer is sophia.

From wikipedia:

Sophia can be described as the wisdom of God, and, at times, as a pure virgin spirit which emanates from God. The Sophia is seen as being expressed in all creation and the natural world as well as, for some of the Christian mystics mentioned above, integral to the spiritual well-being of humankind, the church, and the cosmos. The Virgin is seen as outside creation but compassionately interceding on behalf of humanity to alleviate its suffering by illuminating true spiritual seekers with wisdom and the love of God.


I believe that Morrissey's writing channels a certain essence of God in metaphor, that his sculpted prose represents a neat, compact, modern word of God that we relate to on a passionate level, some cultures more than others. We find in his work something mystically familiar. "You're the one I really, really love." rings as true and redeeming to us as the smell of a candle that might remind us of something familiar and comforting from a long time ago.

 

[nothappynotsad]

I used to worship Morrissey... now I worship greek yogurt.













....and satan.

 

[Iona Mink]

In one word, I believe the answer is sophia.

From wikipedia:

Sophia can be described as the wisdom of God, and, at times, as a pure virgin spirit which emanates from God. The Sophia is seen as being expressed in all creation and the natural world as well as, for some of the Christian mystics mentioned above, integral to the spiritual well-being of humankind, the church, and the cosmos. The Virgin is seen as outside creation but compassionately interceding on behalf of humanity to alleviate its suffering by illuminating true spiritual seekers with wisdom and the love of God.


I believe that Morrissey's writing channels a certain essence of God in metaphor, that his sculpted prose represents a neat, compact, modern word of God that we relate to on a passionate level, some cultures more than others. We find in his work something mystically familiar. "You're the one I really, really love." rings as true and redeeming to us as the smell of a candle that might remind us of something familiar and comforting from a long time ago.

Do you think this is particular to Morrissey or all artists? The concept of the muse is not new. David Lynch often says that his ideas come outside of himself as do many other creative people. Or do you think it is more profound than that?