Morrissey and Linder

imogen11

Junior Member
I read an interview yesterday that made reference to Miserable Lie and it got me thinking. Morrissey refers to a 'rented room in Whalley Range' and he did live in Whalley Range for a year with Linder and somebody else...I can't recall who..
Anyhow, if you think about the rest of the lyrics, I wonder if the girl he refers to in Miserable Lie is Linder. In which case, the lyrics are very revealing in regards to what their relationship may really have been like. This was also the gist that the interviewer was trying to make. I have also read a fairly recent interview with her where Morrissey was referred to (albeit, by the journalist) as her 'former lover'.
Now, before you all spit at me, I am just pondering the possibility that they were lovers, not suggesting that they definately were. If it is possible, could Miserable Lie be about Linder?? I'm curious to hear your thoughts... :)
 

Sunbags

Sunbags
I read an interview yesterday that made reference to Miserable Lie and it got me thinking. Morrissey refers to a 'rented room in Whalley Range' and he did live in Whalley Range for a year with Linder and somebody else...I can't recall who..
Anyhow, if you think about the rest of the lyrics, I wonder if the girl he refers to in Miserable Lie is Linder. In which case, the lyrics are very revealing in regards to what their relationship may really have been like. This was also the gist that the interviewer was trying to make. I have also read a fairly recent interview with her where Morrissey was referred to (albeit, by the journalist) as her 'former lover'.
Now, before you all spit at me, I am just pondering the possibility that they were lovers, not suggesting that they definately were. If it is possible, could Miserable Lie be about Linder?? I'm curious to hear your thoughts... :)

It could very well have been. Yes, Linder has denied that they were in a relationship in a recent interview, but no-one would possibly expect her to admit that they were. However, I think it's more likely that Morrissey had feelings for her, and that they weren't reciprocated. Perhaps "something" happened between them, but Morrissey was living with her and her boyfriend, wasn't he? Or was it her songwriting partner? Sorry, I'm becoming forgetful in my old age........
 

imogen11

Junior Member
Morrissey was living with her and her boyfriend, wasn't he? Or was it her songwriting partner? Sorry, I'm becoming forgetful in my old age........

..I'm not 100% sure...I think it may have been her partner...hmm.. I've got it in an interview somewhere, I'll try and dig it up...

Thanks for posting :)
 

The Goat

Banned
According to the excellent book, 'Morrissey's Manchester' Linder lived with John McGeogh (Magazine and future Banshee, who sadly died recently) at 35 Mayfield Road, Whalley Range. She used to go out with Howard Devoto (Buzzcocks and Magazine).
I've not found anything in books that said Morrissey lived there but he certainly stayed there often.

'Jeane' was also thought to be about Linder and I heard recently that the Buzzcocks 'What do I get?' was written by Pete Shelley about her too.

The Goat
 

nightandday

New Member
It could very well have been. Yes, Linder has denied that they were in a relationship in a recent interview, but no-one would possibly expect her to admit that they were. However, I think it's more likely that Morrissey had feelings for her, and that they weren't reciprocated. Perhaps "something" happened between them, but Morrissey was living with her and her boyfriend, wasn't he? Or was it her songwriting partner? Sorry, I'm becoming forgetful in my old age........
When did she deny it?
 

imogen11

Junior Member
Here's what got me thinking...

"(In 1978) Morrissey duly moved in with Linder and Ludus guitarist Ian to a less than salubrious abode in the red light area of Whalley Range where they lived for approximately a year. This is the inspiration for the "What do we get for our trouble and pain/A rented room in Whalley Range" couplet that lyrically climaxes the pummelling frenzy of "Miserable Lie" from the first album and remains a live show-stopper. Indeed, one could read more than enough about the nature of Morrissey's relationship with Linder in the song's complete lyric. Similarly, certain sources intimate that "Wonderful Woman" and "Jeane" stem from this relationship.
Whatever the case, Morrissey and Linder parted on good terms and their friendship remains constant, with the former helping to promote the re-formed Ludus' product whenever he's afforded radio-space. More pointedly, Morrissey's avowed celibacy usually dates from around 1979."

Hmmmm...
 

mozmic_dancer

One of the Good Guys
..weelll, I wouldn't say she 'denies' it, more so dodges addressing what the interviewer is implying :)

Apparently Morrissey and Linder had the same dance teacher, for they are both masters of sidestepping questions :p

Oh pleessse, they were so lovers.
 

nightandday

New Member
According to the excellent book, 'Morrissey's Manchester' Linder lived with John McGeogh (Magazine and future Banshee, who sadly died recently) at 35 Mayfield Road, Whalley Range. She used to go out with Howard Devoto (Buzzcocks and Magazine).
I've not found anything in books that said Morrissey lived there but he certainly stayed there often.

'Jeane' was also thought to be about Linder and I heard recently that the Buzzcocks 'What do I get?' was written by Pete Shelley about her too.

The Goat
Howard Devoto was her boyfriend 1976-1977. She lived with him in Salford. According to "Severed Alliance" (most of the info about her was provided by Richard Boon, manager of Buzzcocks and owner of the New Hormones label), they broke up around Christmas 1977. They still seemed to have remained friends, though. Shemoved into 35 Mayfield Road, Whalley Range. I don't know exactly who did or didn't share the house with her at this or that point, but many people visited it - it was supposed to be sort of a bohemian mecca for (post-) punk artists and musicians. Ian Devine, Ludus guitarist from 1979 onwards, was her songwriting partner, and was also her boyfriend, according to both Rogan and LTM boss James Nice, who wrote Ludus biography (used on the sleevenotes for their reissue CDs). http://www.ltmpub.freeserve.co.uk/ludusbio.html
According to that biography, "At about the same time [early 1983] relations between Linder and Ian began to deteriorate, and the band lost momentum. In 1984 the pair returned to Belgium with the object of recording another Ludus album, again on the invitation of Hennebert. The duo briefly shared a flat above Interferences, Crepuscule's short-lived bar-cum-venue, but the necessary creative chemistry was lacking and nothing came of the move. Ian and Linder left Brussels separately, and would not speak to one another for more than a decade. And thereby hangs a tale. " They only renewed their musical collaboration (although not as Ludus) in the 2000s.

Richard Boon is the one who claimed that "What Do I Get" was about Linder, as well as 'most of Howard Devoto's early work'.
 
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nightandday

New Member
It was from an interview you posted, incidently.

An' 'ere it is!

http://www.gogoparis.com/gogogo/?q=taxonomy/term/348
Yes, I posted it, that's why I know that she neither confirmed nor denied it.

There are two ways to answer that question: either you say "that's nonsense, we're just friends", or you dodge the answer. Although, technically, they didn't ask 'Were you lovers?' so you might say she didn't have to answer. :p :D

"You’ve worked a lot with Morrissey, there’s rumours that you’ve been lovers…"
"There’s lots of gossip. Yes, we met 30 years ago this October, it’s a long time, most friendships don’t endure that long..."
 

imogen11

Junior Member
Yes, I posted it, that's why I know that she neither confirmed nor denied it.

There are two ways to answer that question: either you say "that's nonsense, we're just friends", or you dodge the answer. Although, technically, they didn't ask 'Were you lovers?' so you might say she didn't have to answer. :p :D

"You’ve worked a lot with Morrissey, there’s rumours that you’ve been lovers…"
"There’s lots of gossip. Yes, we met 30 years ago this October, it’s a long time, most friendships don’t endure that long..."

I agree completely. Oh, I think I am now convinced they were lovers!
 

The Goat

Banned
I dont know, I mean, in 1978 Morrissey was 19 and Linder 24.....
Just cant see it myself, without a doubt he was infatuated by her, whether a crush or just merely by her attitude, influences and social support. I think that's as far as it went.

The Goat
 

imogen11

Junior Member
I dont know, I mean, in 1978 Morrissey was 19 and Linder 24.....
Just cant see it myself, without a doubt he was infatuated by her, whether a crush or just merely by her attitude, influences and social support. I think that's as far as it went.

The Goat

Hmm..I don't know. At the very least, I think you are right, Goat. At the very LEAST he had to be infatuated with her.

If they were together, I'd imagine it was a very brief fling, not a lengthy relationship, by any means.
 

nightandday

New Member
Here's what got me thinking...

"(In 1978) Morrissey duly moved in with Linder and Ludus guitarist Ian to a less than salubrious abode in the red light area of Whalley Range where they lived for approximately a year. This is the inspiration for the "What do we get for our trouble and pain/A rented room in Whalley Range" couplet that lyrically climaxes the pummelling frenzy of "Miserable Lie" from the first album and remains a live show-stopper. Indeed, one could read more than enough about the nature of Morrissey's relationship with Linder in the song's complete lyric. Similarly, certain sources intimate that "Wonderful Woman" and "Jeane" stem from this relationship.
Whatever the case, Morrissey and Linder parted on good terms and their friendship remains constant, with the former helping to promote the re-formed Ludus' product whenever he's afforded radio-space. More pointedly, Morrissey's avowed celibacy usually dates from around 1979."

Hmmmm...
I don't know who Nick Kent got his info from - or maybe he just speculated about Morrissey's lyrics that were supposed to be about Linder. I don't think that there is anything to make one think that "Jeane" is autobiographical, but it's quite possible for the other two, particularly "Miserable Lie" - although it's all speculation, at the end of the day.

In any case, Morrissey was quite upset at Kent for writing that article in 1985 ("Dreamer In the Real World", The Face)- Kent was banned from the Smiths camp from that moment on. Kent later said that Morrissey was upset with him for including the information gotten from other people who used to know Morrissey in his pre-Smiths days (Marr was also upset at some info about his own past - namely his one-time involvement with some jewel thieves, which would also be mentioned in "Severed Alliance").

As for other biographies - "Severed Alliance" has several pages of useful info on Linder herself and her band, but next to nothing about her relationship with Morrissey. Rogan doesn't even mention any rumours that Morrissey ever lived in Whalley Range. His only source was Willie Trotter, the guy who was Ludus bassist for about a year, 1978-79, and who only had this to say: "I don't think he and Linder had a sexual relationship, there were a lot of people around her, not just Morrissey. I'm not sure how much she realized it, but she was a very charismatic person..." etc. Not much of a source, is he? Now, we may afford not to be too intrusive if we don't want to, but it was Rogan's job to be intrusive and do a full research on every aspect of Morrissey's life - he didn't mind doing it in other parts of the book, so I can only put it down to sloppiness, or inability to find any better sources.

Simon Goddard stated in the first edition of his book "Songs That Saved Your Life" that Morrissey and Linder "briefly cohabitated in the early 80s". In the second edition he changed it to the statement that there are 'conflicting rumours' whether Morrissey lived in Linder's flat in Whalley Range; "In any case, he was a very frequent visitor". Morrissey did mention once in an interview that he spent some time living in Whalley Range, "inhaling the riches of the poor". You can also find some speculation in "Songs That Saved Your Life" on "Miserable Lie" and "Wonderful Woman" possibly being about Linder, and Goddard makes a strong case for "I Won't Share You" (even though he dwells quite a lot on the popular assumption that "I Won't Share You" was about Johnny Marr). To remind you, a verse in this song goes:

"The note I wrote
as she read, she said:
Has the Perrier gone straight to my head
or is life sick and cruel, instead?"

(or, in the lyric sheet:

"as the note I wrote
was read, she said
has the Perrier gone straight to my head
or is life plainly sick and cruel, instead?")

and the last lines (not printed in the lyric sheet):

"I want the freedom and I want the guile
I want the freedom and the guile
Life tends to come and go
That's OK as long as you know
Life tends to come and go
That's OK as long as you know
I won't share you
I won't share you
I'll see you somewhere
I'll see you sometime
Darling..."

Goddard managed to dig up a sleevenote that Morrissey wrote in October 1985 for the Ludus compilation that was supposed to be released on the Belgian Crepuscule label, and which was cancelled. Apparently, the last line was "Oh Linder, Linder. I will see you sometime, somewhere."

(The compilation, "Nue au Soleil" was finally released in 1987, but without his sleevenotes, which were never made public. James Nice's 2002 biography/sleevenotes for Ludus reissues quotes a few short phrases from Morrissey's unused sleevenote, but not that phrase.)
 
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nightandday

New Member
According to the excellent book, 'Morrissey's Manchester'

shameless selfpromotion LOL

is your book still in print btw?
Yes, I recently bought it from amazon. It's a slim little book, kind of guide through Manchester for people who want to visit all the Smiths/Morrissey-related places.

BTW "Miserable Lie" is misquoted in this book as "What do I get for my trouble and pain? Just a rented room in Whalley Range" instead of "What do we get from our trouble and pain" :D
 

nightandday

New Member
Here's what got me thinking...

"(In 1978) Morrissey duly moved in with Linder and Ludus guitarist Ian to a less than salubrious abode in the red light area of Whalley Range where they lived for approximately a year. This is the inspiration for the "What do we get for our trouble and pain/A rented room in Whalley Range" couplet that lyrically climaxes the pummelling frenzy of "Miserable Lie" from the first album and remains a live show-stopper. Indeed, one could read more than enough about the nature of Morrissey's relationship with Linder in the song's complete lyric. Similarly, certain sources intimate that "Wonderful Woman" and "Jeane" stem from this relationship.
Whatever the case, Morrissey and Linder parted on good terms and their friendship remains constant, with the former helping to promote the re-formed Ludus' product whenever he's afforded radio-space. More pointedly, Morrissey's avowed celibacy usually dates from around 1979."

Hmmmm...
Funny how different journalists/biographers can't even fix a date when Morrissey's celibacy is supposed to have started. Rogan says 1977, Kent says 1979, neither of them explains how they came to their conclusions, Goddard includes the info about Annalisa from the Mackie letter and claims that Morrissey might have cohabitated with Linder around 1981...

All in all... nothing is clear or certain. That's why it's fun for nosy people like us to speculate. :D
 

imogen11

Junior Member
Funny how different journalists/biographers can't even fix a date when Morrissey's celibacy is supposed to have started. Rogan says 1977, Kent says 1979, neither of them explains how they came to their conclusions, Goddard includes the info about Annalisa from the Mackie letter and claims that Morrissey might have cohabitated with Linder around 1981...

All in all... nothing is clear or certain. That's why it's fun for nosy people like us to speculate. :D

hehe, hey, who are you calling nosy? ;) :D
Thanks for all of that info in your previous post. The plot thickens!
 
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