1. Re: stupid socialists

    > Bless you, good boy! Keep working hard, keep the world turning,
    > keep kissing society's ass - and screw those who aspire to more
    > than a 9 to 5 living, they don't even deserve a decent health
    > care....

    i aspired to more than a 9 to 5 living as choice #1. when i decided that i wanted security more than trying to live my first choice, i moved on. maybe you will never make the same decision but you have the option. in the meantime why would you think it was someone elses responsibility to pay for your healthcare? if its important to you.... work for it. if "aspiring to MORE than a 9 to 5 job" is more important to you.....accept the part of the bargain that youll have to deal with your healthcare when the time comes. im guessing that you are some kind of an artist? many of the greatest artists suffered for their art.....but i dont remember the part about expecting someone else to pay for their bills!
     
  2. Re: i understand what you're saying

    > Don't you ever wish you were fabulous?

    > LMC x

    yes! im a legend in my own mind!
     
  3. Re: thanks anyway, but i liked it better the way i wrote it!

    > You must also take into account that many poor people who may
    > not be able to afford health insurance may allow their ailments
    > to flare up and not go for treatment when it can be nipped in
    > the bud, but rather wait until the only cure will be far more
    > expensive treatment.

    > LMC x

    good point. i guess there are no easy answers. thanks for making me think(sometimes it hurts when i do that)!
     
  4. Re: i understand what you're saying

    > yes! im a legend in my own mind!

    I think the gentle and sensitive discussion about healtcare both in the USA and the UK between Little Miss Curious and Ugly Amercian, offers hope to those of us who had long believed that the chat room and the discussion board had been taken over by a bunch of dead heads! It's pleasant to see people argue in the civilised sense without getting all hot, bothered and vicious!

    Changing the subject slightly, here's a question, aren't we all just being consumerist pushovers by going out to buy "Oye! Esteban" ?

    Some of the kids who post here are buying the DVD but cannot afford to buy a DVD player! It makes me uncomfortable to think that Moz fans can be divided into the haves and have nots. I have DVD software on my computer, but I'm seriously considering NOT buying "Oye..."
     
  5. Re: stupid socialists

    > i aspired to more than a 9 to 5 living as choice #1. when i
    > decided that i wanted security more than trying to live my first
    > choice, i moved on. maybe you will never make the same decision
    > but you have the option. in the meantime why would you think it
    > was someone elses responsibility to pay for your healthcare? if
    > its important to you.... work for it. if "aspiring to MORE
    > than a 9 to 5 job" is more important to you.....accept the
    > part of the bargain that youll have to deal with your healthcare
    > when the time comes. im guessing that you are some kind of an
    > artist? many of the greatest artists suffered for their
    > art.....but i dont remember the part about expecting someone
    > else to pay for their bills!

    So...because I want to be happy in life I have to be punished by being deprived of the right to receive as good healthcare as the corporate peon?
     
  6. Re: thanks anyway, but i liked it better the way i wrote it!

    > good point. i guess there are no easy answers. thanks for making
    > me think(sometimes it hurts when i do that)!

    Hey, same for me! It's a very complex issue. The social class divide will always be a problem concerning healthcare, as it does pose the question 'Why do people who are fortunate enough to have enough money to pay to go private deserve the right to a better quality of healthcare than someone else?' I mean, you could say that about anything I suppose, but when it's concerning somebody's life...how could you say to someone "You can't have the life-saving operation, but he can, because he's richer.."

    LMC x

    P.S I'm sure there's some Morrissey content in here somewhere...
     
  7. Re: i understand what you're saying

    > yes! im a legend in my own mind!

    Good! There has to be more than a 9 to 5 job, no matter how much it provides...

    LMC x
     
  8. Re: i understand what you're saying

    > I think the gentle and sensitive discussion about healtcare both
    > in the USA and the UK between Little Miss Curious and Ugly
    > Amercian, offers hope to those of us who had long believed that
    > the chat room and the discussion board had been taken over by a
    > bunch of dead heads! It's pleasant to see people argue in the
    > civilised sense without getting all hot, bothered and vicious!

    Aw, shucks!

    > Changing the subject slightly, here's a question, aren't we all
    > just being consumerist pushovers by going out to buy "Oye!
    > Esteban" ?

    Yes! You said it before me. What a swiss! As if everyone at that signing owned a DVD player! (They probably bought one after the signing, saddos!)

    > Some of the kids who post here are buying the DVD but cannot
    > afford to buy a DVD player! It makes me uncomfortable to think
    > that Moz fans can be divided into the haves and have nots. I
    > have DVD software on my computer, but I'm seriously considering
    > NOT buying "Oye..."

    What's the point if you don't have a DVD? This is seriously only for Moz fans with too much money.

    LMC x
     
  9. Mr.So & So

    Mr.So & So Guest

    Re: stupid socialists

    > ive heard horror stories about your substandard national health
    > care system and the huge tax burden to go with it.

    A susbstandard national health care system is 40 million Americans without health care.

    i have
    > excellent health care in the U.S. because i have a steady job.
    > im a regular middle economic class kinda guy. i, for one, am
    > glad to live in the greatest country in the world! sorry about
    > your fate of living in europe!

    You don't mix well with others, do you?
     
  10. Mr.So & So

    Mr.So & So Guest

    I think its time that you return to kissing your framed 8x10 of Ayn Rand.

    > i aspired to more than a 9 to 5 living as choice #1. when i
    > decided that i wanted security more than trying to live my first
    > choice, i moved on. maybe you will never make the same decision
    > but you have the option. in the meantime why would you think it
    > was someone elses responsibility to pay for your healthcare?

    Healthcare is a basic human righ, which is why we constrcuted governments to aid in regulation and to provide services that as an individual would otherwise be difficult to obtain.

    We're not talking about stock options here, we're talking about someones health and quality of life.

    When you live in a country where a large section of the population does not have healthcare, and the another large percent who do actually possess healthcare coverage cannot make basic choices about what steps can be taken to heal them, that is not only embarrassing to perpetrate as a ntaion, but inherently sick as well.

    if
    > its important to you.... work for it. if "aspiring to MORE
    > than a 9 to 5 job" is more important to you.....accept the
    > part of the bargain that youll have to deal with your healthcare
    > when the time comes. im guessing that you are some kind of an
    > artist? many of the greatest artists suffered for their
    > art.....but i dont remember the part about expecting someone
    > else to pay for their bills!

    Are you even fully aware of the topics that are being argued in the healthcare debate?

    A large percentage of the people without healthcare are working full time jobs!

    Some people cannot even afford the costs of a company based HMO plan.

    Just because you work a fulltime job does not mean you have automatic access to healthcare.

    Are you even knowledgeable of the fact that most people who have pre-existing conditions are not granted healthcare by an HMO?

    Again, and repeat this ten times to yourself, having a government provide basic healthcare for people is not someone passing along the bill for them, it is providing for them a basic human right.

    Otherwise stepping out of the caves to form protective societies has meant nothing whatosever.
     
  11. Mr.So & So

    Mr.So & So Guest

    I have no idea what you are saying.

    > when i was younger i didn't care if i had health care. after i
    > hit 25 it became more important to me so i found work that fit
    > my needs/desires. i understand what you're saying but i don't
    > think entitlements are the answer. when everything is handed to
    > you - you don't appreciate what it really means.

    First off, we're not talking about the dole here, we'er talking about healthcare.

    You are correct though. When you are ill, and you have very little money, and cannot find work due to your current condition, how could you ever be expected to appreciate such a fleeting commodity as healthcare.

    I would suspect that not only would you not appreciate it, but you would be even more likely to fall ill more often so as to abuse something that is handed to you so easily.

    In fact you have just opened my eyes to the entire philosphy of it all.

    Ah, I see. The problem with healthcare in America is that peopele fall ill much too often and much too easily, and in the mean time should spend their energy looking for more prestigious and well paying jobs.

    Come on!

    I find it very interesting that conservative minded people will strive so hard to save an unborn, unconscious life, yet feel very little sympathy for the health and well being of an already born, and innocent child who lacks healthcare coverage.

    You wan't to know what the current version of Communism is?

    It is when a human being is forced to pursue wealth to have even a chance at getting proper healthcare.

    Become a partner in business, and you will get you basic needs fulfiled (but still no guarantees).

    Does not sound like a choice in freedom to me.
     
  12. Mr.So & So

    Mr.So & So Guest

    Re: stupid socialists

    > Yes, I have to work hard! I found a few years ago that my
    > first(and second) choice of professions didn't give me the
    > security that I needed, so I went to "plan C" and went
    > to school, got the education to succeed, and went out and found

    I wonder how you paid for your education?

    Certainly no Government support, correct?

    Why that would be, that would be... COMMUNISTIC!
     
  13. suzanne

    suzanne Guest

    Re: i understand what you're saying

    > when i was younger i didn't care if i had health care. after i
    > hit 25 it became more important to me so i found work that fit
    > my needs/desires. i understand what you're saying but i don't
    > think entitlements are the answer.

    damn the poor and the old! Why can't everyone get into college and graduate with a guaranteed full time job just like myself?

    >when everything is handed to
    > you - you don't appreciate what it really means. when you have
    > to work to get yourself to a more comfortable existence, you
    > appreciate the healthcare and other benefits.

    it makes me feel good about myself when I hear stories of people being turned away from medical care because they had no way to pay for it. They deserved to die. Let those of us who can afford insurance live. It's called Darwinism.

    >i think i am
    > better off because i worked for what i have. i have to be
    > consistant to keep my job and benefits/etc.

    When I'm 80 and on my death bed, I want to look back at my life and be glad that I was stuck with a boring, dead-end job with great benefits.

    >that helps me keep
    > my life in order. im not wealthy by any means! i drive a 13 year
    > old car and wear simple inexpensive clothes.

    I like working for a company where some guy I've never met and could not identify me in a police lineup is driving a new Jaguar on his way back from the airport after a month's vacation in Australia to his $4 million house in the valley thanks to the hard work that I put in day in and day out. I'm glad when they complain that too many of the employees are wanting to take paid vacation or funeral leave. After all, many of them hadn't been there a year.

    >my priorities are
    > to do work i enjoy(at least most of the time) and provide for my
    > family. i have reached those goals by hard work and i don't
    > regret any of it!

    But when the stock market inevetibly dips, my job will be one of the first to go and I really won't know what I'll do then.
     
  14. Mimi

    Mimi Guest

    Re: stupid socialists

    > i aspired to more than a 9 to 5 living as choice #1. when i
    > decided that i wanted security more than trying to live my first
    > choice, i moved on. maybe you will never make the same decision
    > but you have the option. in the meantime why would you think it
    > was someone elses responsibility to pay for your healthcare? if
    > its important to you.... work for it. if "aspiring to MORE
    > than a 9 to 5 job" is more important to you.....accept the
    > part of the bargain that youll have to deal with your healthcare
    > when the time comes. im guessing that you are some kind of an
    > artist? many of the greatest artists suffered for their
    > art.....but i dont remember the part about expecting someone
    > else to pay for their bills!

    Yes you're right, I am an artist, but you know I'm one of those poor Europeans that has to live in a country that STILL makes me pay for my healthcare..... You see, the idea of a social system is that those who can, pay for those who can't! "If you want healthcare, go get a job.." - I wonder what someone suffering from Down Syndrome or sitting in a wheelchair would say to that..... I was referring to your inmesurable arrogance with which you stated America was oh so great because of it's healthcare..... America's whole social system sucks big time and you know it. Healthcare in countries such as the UK may be basic but it's providing for everyone.

    And you may well stay in your 9 to 5 job all your life if that's okay for you, for myself I chose not to waste my life on that. I want to look back on more that 40 years of doing something I don't want to do only to pay the bills that wouldn't have occured if my little life wouldn't circle around filling my little spare time as good as possible. I choose to have little money but have the freedom to do whatever I want to do at any time. I'm not rich. But then you know, most people with a 9 to 5 job aren't either......
     
  15. Re: stupid socialists

    > Yes you're right, I am an artist, but you know I'm one of those
    > poor Europeans that has to live in a country that STILL makes me
    > pay for my healthcare..... You see, the idea of a social system
    > is that those who can, pay for those who can't! "If you
    > want healthcare, go get a job.." - I wonder what someone
    > suffering from Down Syndrome or sitting in a wheelchair would
    > say to that..... I was referring to your inmesurable arrogance
    > with which you stated America was oh so great because of it's
    > healthcare..... America's whole social system sucks big time and
    > you know it. Healthcare in countries such as the UK may be basic
    > but it's providing for everyone.

    > And you may well stay in your 9 to 5 job all your life if that's
    > okay for you, for myself I chose not to waste my life on that. I
    > want to look back on more that 40 years of doing something I
    > don't want to do only to pay the bills that wouldn't have
    > occured if my little life wouldn't circle around filling my
    > little spare time as good as possible. I choose to have little
    > money but have the freedom to do whatever I want to do at any
    > time. I'm not rich. But then you know, most people with a 9 to 5
    > job aren't either......

    doesnt much of this go back to the breakdown of the family unit? it used to be that families took care of their young, old, and sick. i guess what im trying to say is; i dont believe it is societys responsibility to take care of me. i made a conscious decision to get a job that provided me with the benefits that i felt i needed. i wouldnt be working the job i have if health care was provided by the government.......but im not "miserable now". i could just as easily decided to follow my first choice (which was in the arts) and not had the benefits. each of us has the freedom to decide what is most important. BTW i still find outlets for my creative side even though i dont make my living that way. i guess that i made a compromise that you havent chosen........its a difference of philosophy but i dont think im right and you're wrong(or vise versa). good luck mimi! i really hope pursuing your dream turns out to be the right choice for you.
     
  16. Re: stupid socialists

    > I wonder how you paid for your education?

    > Certainly no Government support, correct?

    you are correct. i worked my way through the first 2 1/2 years, had to take a few years off, then went back and worked a 45 hour week while i kept a fuul time school schedule. it took me 2 extra summer sessions, and i had to live on 4 hours sleep per night, but it also made me appreciate my education. it wasnt easy but i dont regret a moment!

    > Why that would be, that would be... COMMUNISTIC!

    i do believe in loans that have to be paid back.
     
  17. Re: i understand what you're saying

    > Aw, shucks!
    ditto

    > Yes! You said it before me. What a swiss! As if everyone at that
    > signing owned a DVD player! (They probably bought one after the
    > signing, saddos!)

    > What's the point if you don't have a DVD? This is seriously only
    > for Moz fans with too much money.

    > LMC x

    yeah! i havent had the extra cash to buy a DVD player or any DVDs and i dont expect the government to provide one for me!(hehehehe)
     
  18. Re: thanks anyway, but i liked it better the way i wrote it!

    > Hey, same for me! It's a very complex issue. The social class
    > divide will always be a problem concerning healthcare, as it
    > does pose the question 'Why do people who are fortunate enough
    > to have enough money to pay to go private deserve the right to a
    > better quality of healthcare than someone else?' I mean, you
    > could say that about anything I suppose, but when it's
    > concerning somebody's life... how could you say to someone
    > "You can't have the life-saving operation, but he can,
    > because he's richer.."

    > LMC x

    > P.S I'm sure there's some Morrissey content in here somewhere...

    we could speculate that morrissey moved to the U.S. to receive better health care because he can afford it!(hehehehehe)
     
  19. Re: stupid so -n- so

    > A susbstandard national health care system is 40 million
    > Americans without health care

    im not sure that is a valid number. i lived for 7 years with no health care because i was young and thought it wasnt important. there may be a large number of your 40 million who feel the same as i did then.

    > i have

    > You don't mix well with others, do you?

    not with idiots like you......but otherwise i do fine, thank you.
     
  20. Re: dreams

    > i really hope pursuing your dream turns out to be the right
    > choice for you.

    turns out to be the right choice for her? how can pursuing your dream ever be the wrong choice? damn.

    Birth Name: Timothy Burton
    Birthdate: August 25, 1958
    Birthplace: Burbank, CA
    Occupations: Actor, Director, Writer, Producer

    Quote: "I grew up in this puritanical, American Dream kind of thing where everybody's suppose to be normal, and people attacked anybody who tried to make something . . . I shielded myself from that and punched through it. Because I couldn't draw either. If I had listened to those people, I'd have ended up like everyone else. 'I can't do this, I can't do that.' " --Village Voice, October 4, 1994
     
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