Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer

[FER]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

I'm pretty sure YOU are smelling something else. Yuck.

 

[BrummieBoy]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

Is there a historical narrative about the Holocaust that differs from the one embraced by the Anti-Defamation league, other than ones held by revisionist historians and Holocaust deniers?




I am sure the Jews feel honored to have been singled out for genocide. What a freaking privilege.



Very True. That is why we have to wear them under other shirts.

Yes, ask Armenians and progressive Jews about the ADL's support to suppress recognition of other Holocausts:

http://muzzlewatch.com/2007/05/16/“never-again”-means-for-everyone/

The Jews were NOT singled out for Genocide. Find out what "Hindu Kush" actually means. Are you saying that the Middle Passage or extermination of indigenous American "Indians" doesn't amount to a holocaust? The Irish Potato Famine?

regards
BB

 

[Iona Mink]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

I'm pretty sure YOU are smelling something else. Yuck.

That's argumentum ad hominem.

Do it again! Do it again!

 

[realitybites]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

That one can infer all vegetarians are susceptible to megalomania and perpetrating genocide based on a former leader's diet? You think this is an appropriate and reasonable comparison?

What about all people who have moustaches should shave them off because, you know, Stalin. Or people should switch to contacts because Mugabe wears glasses.

You're right. It's not stupid at all.

I think that is a poor analogy. Vegetarianism--especially veganism--is an ideology, just as fascism is. Mustache wearing is an aesthetic preference, not an ideology. Mustache wearing would never be argued to have anything to do with totalitarianism by ANYONE. And never has, that I am aware of.

The question asked, is, do vegetarians/vegans share similar traits with fascists? Does embracing the former lead one to embrace the latter? Answer? No. Vegetarianism/veganism is a dietary/environmental ideology motivated by compassion. It embraces the concepts, freedom and liberation. Fascism is motivated by power and control. It proposes the removal of rights and liberties. They are actually in contrast to one another. So anyone arguing that Hitler was fascist because of his vegetarianism, is making an irrational and erroneous claim. I'd say it is more likely, and more accurate, to claim he was fascist despite being vegetarian.

 

[FER]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

So this is the part where we move on right?

Especially when we consider that you have failed to make any good points. Kinda like how you compared Hitlers vegetarianism to Stalins moustache.

 

[realitybites]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

Yes, ask Armenians and progressive Jews about the ADL's support to suppress recognition of other Holocausts:

http://muzzlewatch.com/2007/05/16/“never-again”-means-for-everyone/

The Jews were NOT singled out for Genocide. Find out what "Hindu Kush" actually means. Are you saying that the Middle Passage or extermination of indigenous American "Indians" doesn't amount to a holocaust? The Irish Potato Famine?

regards
BB

I never said other groups have not been targeted for genocide. Bosniak (Bosnian Muslim) and Croatian civilians were. As were the ethnic Tutsis in Rawanda. There are more examples. I misunderstood you. I was referring to the Holocaust of WWII-otherwise known as Shoah. I was not aware the the ADL wants to be the exclusive owners of the term genocide. Is that true?

 

[Iona Mink]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

So this is the part where we move on right?

Especially when we consider that you have failed to make any good points. Kinda like how you compared Hitlers vegetarianism to Stalins moustache.

Kinda like how you compared all vegetarians to Hitler.

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I think that is a poor analogy. Vegetarianism--especially veganism--is an ideology, just as fascism is. Mustache wearing is an aesthetic preference, not an ideology. Mustache wearing would never be argued to have anything to do with totalitarianism by ANYONE. And never has, that I am aware of.

The question asked, is, do vegetarians/vegans share similar traits with fascists? Does embracing the former lead one to embrace the latter? Answer? No. Vegetarianism/veganism is a dietary/environmental ideology motivated by compassion. It embraces the concepts, freedom and liberation. Fascism is motivated by power and control. It proposes the removal of rights and liberties. They are actually in contrast to one another. So anyone arguing that Hitler was fascist because of his vegetarianism, is making an irrational and erroneous claim. I'd say it is more likely, and more accurate, to claim he was fascist despite being vegetarian.

You're right but it was a nonsense claim so I wasn't going to spend any time trying to defend my position with anything other than a ridiculous comparison.

 

[FER]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

Kinda like how you compared all vegetarians to Hitler.

Except for the fact, that I didn't. Maybe you should reread what I posted.

 

[Iona Mink]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

Except for the fact, that I didn't. Maybe you should reread what I posted.

Be careful where you place your priorities. Hitler was a vegetarian.

You're not inferring that anyone who is a vegetarian for animal welfare reasons is comparable to Hitler?

 

[realitybites]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

Kinda like how you compared all vegetarians to Hitler.

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You're right but it was a nonsense claim so I wasn't going to spend any time trying to defend my position with anything other than a ridiculous comparison.

It IS a ridiculous claim. I think, like I stated, it is more likely, and more accurate, that he was fascist despite being vegetarian.

I think the reasoning (being generous here) goes like this... vegetarians/vegans want to take away my rights/liberties to consume meat. They are like fascists in that way. Thing is, many political ideologies like to limit civil rights and liberties. Fascism is just one example. Here are a few more: totalitarianism, dictatorships, theocracies. Hell, the only political ideology that truly embraces freedom is libertarianism. So if you are a vegetarian, by their logic, you could just as easily be a member of any of those other groups, if we are simply talking about curtailing civil rights and liberties.

 

[Iona Mink]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

It IS a ridiculous claim. I think, like I stated, it is more likely, and more accurate, to claim he was fascist despite being vegetarian.

I think the reasoning (being generous here) goes like this... vegetarians/vegans want to take away my rights/liberties to consume meat. They are like fascists in that way. Thing is, many political ideologies like to limit civil rights and liberties. Fascism is just one example. Here are a few more: totalitarianism, dictatorships, theocracies. Hell, the only political ideology that truly entrances freedom is Libertarianism. So if you are a vegetarian, by their logic, you could just as easily be a member of any of those other groups, if we are simply talking about curtailing civil rights and liberties.

I get that argument. I think there is a flaw in its primary assumption though, and that is, as a vegetarian I want to take away your rights to consume meat. I don't. It's a choice I make for myself. Would I like it if the world became vegetarian overnight? Absolutely! But I am in no way prepared to enforce my habits to make that happen.

You can likewise make a similar argument that we as atheists want to take away society's freedom to worship. Sorta true but mainly not.

 

[FER]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

You're not inferring that anyone who is a vegetarian for animal welfare reasons is comparable to Hitler?

Not at all.

It is a rather ironic post if you consider the context of this thread. "Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer."

 

[Iona Mink]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

Not at all.

It is a rather ironic post if you consider the context of this thread. "Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer."

Oh you were being ironic? Sarcastic. Disparaging. Ridiculous.

I see.

 

[FER]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

Oh you were being ironic? Sarcastic. Disparaging. Ridiculous.

I see.

Oh yes. Just as disparaging and ridiculous as the myriad of statements Morrissey hasn't made.

Sure, yeah. Right on.

 

[BrummieBoy]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

Be careful where you place your priorities. Hitler was a vegetarian.

He also had one testicle.

 

[BrummieBoy]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

No god gave humans animals. Nature, evolution, gave the earth animals and human animals. If the concept of 'dominion' is embraced, it is because of the survival of the fittest dynamics of evolution, not Abrahamic religious texts. Though either one can be embraced/used as rational for humans to have dominion over non-human animals. I certainly don't adhere to the latter, as justification. Many do, however.

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Yes, duh! But animals are not humans.

If you don't "adhere" to it as a culturally-identified Jewish human, why do you mention it as a valid option?

 

[realitybites]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

If you don't "adhere" to it as a culturally-identified Jewish human, why do you mention it as a valid option?

I am not Jewish by culture or religion though. And neither are my ancestors. My grandparents, on both sides, were Protestant. And that was the end of the religious line. My parents are not Christians, or any religion at all. I was not brought up with any religion whatsoever. And I am a self-identified atheist and so is my son. It is safe to assume his children will be atheists as well.

I don't need to be Jewish or religious in order to have great compassion for the Jews, and empathy for their historical suffering.

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I get that argument. I think there is a flaw in its primary assumption though, and that is, as a vegetarian I want to take away your rights to consume meat. I don't. It's a choice I make for myself. Would I like it if the world became vegetarian overnight? Absolutely! But I am in no way prepared to enforce my habits to make that happen.

You can likewise make a similar argument that we as atheists want to take away society's freedom to worship. Sorta true but mainly not.

Yes, the same claim is made about atheists. But most atheists do not want to take away others' rights to believe and practice religion--outside of the government domain and public schools, that is. They believe in the live and let live idiom. As long as it doesn't negatively impact their rights and liberties--force them to follow laws and statues with religious undertone/origins--then it should be tolerated. You are that type of atheist, as you have stated in these forums. And my guess is, that type of vegetarian, as well.

Then you have anti-theists. They DO want all religious belief and practice to be irradiated. They DO think the world would be a better place if these things ceased to exist. I am this type of atheist. So, I DO get the radical vegan mindset. But calling these types of atheists and vegans militant is erroneous, as Brummie pointed out. Because they are not soldiers enforcing their ideologies, with the support and sponsorship of the state--a military state. Saudi Arabia outlaws pork. This is a dietary law enforced by the State. Stalin outlawed religious practice. It was forbidden by the state. I do not wish for religion to be outlawed. I just hope we evolve to no longer need or want it--it loses its appeal and utility in the future. I am not so certain all vegans see things the same. Some do not want meat-eating outlawed. But others do--even resorting to terrorism in the name of their cause. Those people ARE militant.

 

[BrummieBoy]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

I am not Jewish by culture or religion though. And neither are my ancestors. My grandparents, on both sides, were Protestant. And that was the end of the religious line. My parents are not Christians, or any religion at all. I was not brought up with any religion whatsoever. And I am a self-identified atheist and so is my son. It is safe to assume his children with be atheists as well.

I don't need to be Jewish or religious in order to have great compassion for the Jews, and empathy for their historical suffering.

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Yes, the same claim is made about atheists. But most atheists do not want to take away others' rights to believe and practice religion--outside of the government domain and public schools, that is. They believe in the live and let live idiom, as long as it doesn't negatively impact their rights and liberties--force them to follow laws and statues with religious undertone/origins. You are that type of atheist, as you have stated in these forums. And my guess is, that type of vegetarian, as well.

Then you have anti-theists. They DO want all religious belief and practice to be irradiated. They DO think the world would be a better place if these things ceased to exist. I am this type of atheist. So, I DO get the radical vegan mindset. But calling these types of atheists and vegans militant is erroneous, as Brummie pointed out. Because they are not soldiers enforcing their ideologies, with the support and sponsorship of the state--a military state. Saudi Arabia outlaws pork. This is a dietary law enforced by the Sate. Stalin outlawed religious practice. It was forbidden by the state. I do not wish for religious practice and belief to be outlawed. I just hope we evolve to no longer need or want it--it loses its appeal and utility in the future. I am not so certain all vegans see things the same. Some do not want meat eating outlawed. But others do--even resorting to terrorism in the name of their cause. Those people ARE militant.

I feel great compassion for the Jewish holocaust under Hitler. What I find enraging is how so many other Jewish-affiliated groups and icons have appropriated that suffering and used it as a pretext to invalidate fierce probing of their behaviour. Ariel Sharon. r.i.p.

 

[Iona Mink]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

Yes, the same claim is made about atheists. But most atheists do not want to take away others' rights to believe and practice religion--outside of the government domain and public schools, that is. They believe in the live and let live idiom, as long as it doesn't negatively impact their rights and liberties--force them to follow laws and statues with religious undertone/origins. You are that type of atheist, as you have stated in these forums. And my guess is, that type of vegetarian, as well.

Then you have anti-theists. They DO want all religious belief and practice to be irradiated. They DO think the world would be a better place if these things ceased to exist. I am this type of atheist. So, I DO get the radical vegan mindset. But calling these types of atheists and vegans militant is erroneous, as Brummie pointed out. Because they are not soldiers enforcing their ideologies, with the support and sponsorship of the state--a military state. Saudi Arabia outlaws pork. This is a dietary law enforced by the Sate. Stalin outlawed religious practice. It was forbidden by the state. I do not wish for religious practice and belief to be outlawed. I just hope we evolve to no longer need or want it--it loses its appeal and utility in the future. I am not so certain all vegans see things the same. Some do not want meat eating outlawed. But others do--even resorting to terrorism in the name of their cause. Those people ARE militant.

I think that's a fair summary of my position. Although I'd love to see society evolve to no longer need or want religion (or animal based products ), I just don't see it happening hence I'll take the lesser of two evils and embrace the live and let live philosophy.

 

[BrummieBoy]

Re: Meat, Morrissey and Mein Führer.

I feel great compassion for the Jewish holocaust under Hitler. What I find enraging is how so many other Jewish-affiliated groups and icons have appropriated that suffering and used it as a pretext to invalidate fierce probing of their behaviour. Ariel Sharon. r.i.p.

I regard both Carnism and Theism as profound mental illness. The appropriate response is both compassion and political action. What enrages me about Morrissey is that he uses the debate about Carnism as a personal bauble to self-aggrandise his personal narrative without any subsequent commitment to political action. He eats in Carnist restaurants, doesn't support vegan restaurants, cavorts in front of dairy cows, wears cashmere wool, and overall seems to use the suffering of other humans and animals to emote his own ridiculous victim-script. He has the wealth, time and baseline intelligence to use his cultural power and financial resources to create demand for a vegan option via tour riders, hotel catering, clothes endorsements, etc. But he does very little other than to troll these debates for brief, inflammatory publicity. I'm very clear he's not a serious artist and i suspect many others now agree with me. The fact that he's an 'institution' for Boomers who can't face the pain that all that sweat and drama at gigs was before a false idol is very understandable, but some of us have to actually live the Outsider script, not just mock it for notorieity and Ker-ching!