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B

Ben Dana

Guest
Fair point, although he didn't blame Johnny for everything - I thought he was generally very kind about Johnny in Autobio.

From the outside, it looks like the rot set in when the public backlash started against Moz in 2018 (and the questions started coming to JM about Moz ruining the Smiths legacy, etc). I think the media stirred up the pot and who knows - maybe something happened in private before that, but I think the real 'turning point' was then.

I also think that Morrissey believed the headlines and the press more than what Johnny actually says. It's ironic considering all the headlines he himself has generated and the way the press has treated him.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
I also think that Morrissey believed the headlines and the press more than what Johnny actually says. It's ironic considering all the headlines he himself has generated and the way the press has treated him.
Absolutely agree. Especially since the letter seemed (?) to be sparked by an article in Uncut, where the Express misquoted Johnny in the headline.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Fair point, although he didn't blame Johnny for everything - I thought he was generally very kind about Johnny in Autobio.

From the outside, it looks like the rot set in when the public backlash started against Moz in 2018 (and the questions started coming to JM about Moz ruining the Smiths legacy, etc). I think the media stirred up the pot and who knows - maybe something happened in private before that, but I think the real 'turning point' was then.
I don't think that's a general oipnion about what's being said on autobio. There are some kind quotes, yes, but for the most events between the two he blames Johnny. He literally wrote that it's all JM's fault that their relationship is broken. Morrissey wrote in the open letter as if he had always complimented Marr, but that's simply not the truth. Morrissey himself made digs at Marr sometimes in spoken interviews or at his concerts.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
I don't think that's a general oipnion about what's being said on autobio. There are some kind quotes, yes, but for the most events between the two he blames Johnny. He literally wrote that it's all JM's fault that their relationship is broken. Morrissey wrote in the open letter as if he had always complimented Marr, but that's simply not the truth. Morrissey himself made digs at Marr sometimes in spoken interviews or at his concerts.
Where does he blame him? I can't think of much. He mentions a time where he writes to Johnny, they go for a drive and then M ends up shouting that he doesn't understand why the split happened - that's fair enough. There's a bit of schadenfreude when Johnny gets kicked out of the Pretenders. He's irritated by JM's comments in the media and has memorised all the offending headlines ('Morrissey was hell to worth with, says Johnny Marr') - and he gets miffed with the courtroom performance. That's pretty reasonable stuff, isn't it? It's not cruel.

Most intriguing to me was that he doesn't explain why things faltered again after that pub meet in 2008 - he just says "Johnny tells me he is ready to reunite" and leaves it hanging. Whereas in JM's retelling of it, things were great for a few days after and then Morrissey went cold.
To me, their grievances look like this:

M - Johnny blames me for his leaving and has never forgiven me. He thinks I'm evil, slags me off and talks like he hated being in The Smiths
J - Morrissey blames me for leaving and has never forgiven me. He thinks I slag him off incessantly, he thinks I hate him, he blows hot and cold.

And on and on it goes. The split is like a tumour in their relationship, they just can't work it out.
 
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A

Anonymous

Guest
Where does he blame him? I can't think of much. He mentions a time where he writes to Johnny, they go for a drive and then M ends up shouting that he doesn't understand why the split happened - that's fair enough. There's a bit of schadenfreude when Johnny gets kicked out of the Pretenders. He's irritated by JM's comments in the media and has memorised all the offending headlines ('Morrissey was hell to worth with, says Johnny Marr') - and he gets miffed with the courtroom performance. That's pretty reasonable stuff, isn't it? It's not cruel.

Most intriguing to me was that he doesn't explain why things faltered again after that pub meet in 2008 - he just says "Johnny tells me he is ready to reunite" and leaves it hanging. Whereas in JM's retelling of it, things were great for a few days after and then Morrissey went cold.
To me, their grievances look like this:

M - Johnny blames me for his leaving and has never forgiven me. He thinks I'm evil, slags me off and talks like he hated being in The Smiths
J - Morrissey blames me for leaving and has never forgiven me. He thinks I slag him off incessantly, he thinks I hate him, he blows hot and cold.

And on and on it goes. The split is like a tumour in their relationship, they just can't work it out.

1. M wrote JM is responsible for all the breakdown of their relationship. It comes after the notorious lawsuit part.

2. He didn't write that he shouted because he didn't understand why JM left. He wrote that if someone had the right to scream, it's him, although he himself was extremely difficult person to work with and it eventually made JM leave the band. He guessed at one point JM thought he would become more famous outside of The Smith. Of course, it's not the truth at all.

3. After reading most of JM's post-Smiths interviews during 87-early 90s, I can't see what kinds of irritating comments he made to the media. If M was annoyed by the headlines, it's his own fault for not reading the full interview. ("Morrissey was hell to work with" is direct but good summary though. It's just truth)

IMO, Morrissey's problem is that he makes a lot of bad (and wrong) assumption about people. And crucially, he wouldn't ever admit that his behaviors contributed to the breakup of the band, nor that JM was the victim too.

If someone has decided to end friendship with you and you want to reconcile, the first thing to do is to reflect on your own actions and apologize, rather than yelling "Why did you leave me?" How can someone restore a relationship when this simple thing doesn't work?
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
1. M wrote JM is responsible for all the breakdown of their relationship. It comes after the notorious lawsuit part.

2. He didn't write that he shouted because he didn't understand why JM left. He wrote that if someone had the right to scream, it's him, although he himself was extremely difficult person to work with and it eventually made JM leave the band. He guessed at one point JM thought he would become more famous outside of The Smith. Of course, it's not the truth at all.

3. After reading most of JM's post-Smiths interviews during 87-early 90s, I can't see what kinds of irritating comments he made to the media. If M was annoyed by the headlines, it's his own fault for not reading the full interview. ("Morrissey was hell to work with" is direct but good summary though. It's just truth)

IMO, Morrissey's problem is that he makes a lot of bad (and wrong) assumption about people. And crucially, he wouldn't ever admit that his behaviors contributed to the breakup of the band, nor that JM was the victim too.

If someone has decided to end friendship with you and you want to reconcile, the first thing to do is to reflect on your own actions and apologize, rather than yelling "Why did you leave me?" How can someone restore a relationship when this simple thing doesn't work?
1. Again, where did he write that?

2. He shouted "I know NOTHING" because Johnny had said - "You really don't know why..?".

Maybe it was true, maybe he didn't know because Johnny couldn't face telling him the truth and chose to run away rather than argue it out. In all these years they've never argued it out, they've always tried to side-step it and that's why it's still there, under the surface. I think both Moz and Johnny think they are the biggest 'victim' and can't see the other guy's side.
 

kissmyshadestoo

Nobody ever looks at me twice
slightly off topic but still a "Marr discussion" :)
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Note the dogs name in the article: https://www.inquirer.com/news/phila...arians-animals-mount-airy-woods-20220801.html

(Also, people are morons)
 

Redacted

I think I must be, absolutely, a total sex object.
Someone needs money

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