Marr discussions

A

Anonymous

Guest
What truth is that?

I'm not begrudging Johnny's success - like I said, he didn't choose the timing or circumstances. He's a great guitar player and if there were even an ounce of goodwill between him and Moz, I think most Smiths fans would be on cloud 9 - we can and go and see them both tour, buy two sets of albums, there wouldn't be any of this 'team' nonsense.

It's not like that though. Johnny has benefited from Moz being enormously 'out of favour', and he has undoubtedly added fuel to that fire by stoking up the Twitter mob. Fans all over social media were routinely saying things like, "Thank God one of The Smiths isn't a bellend", "#TeamMarr" (and much worse) - and not once did he ever step in to say "Hang on guys, that's not what The Smiths were about, we were a partnership." He just soaked up the attention, changed his profile pic to one from the Simpsons sketch, let his stupid son pour petrol on the situation... he absolutely joined in. Even when Moz was riding high in the media (with Quarry for example) - he wasn't sitting there smirking at the failure of Boomslang, he was still praising Johnny.

Yes, of course Johnny has benefitted from Morrissey being out of favor. But really, whose fault is that? It's not Johnny's fault that Morrissey is dismantling any goodwill he's earned through the Smiths and his early solo career. If you've read Johnny's book or listened to any of his older podcasts, he always gave full credit to Morrissey and talked in glowing terms about the Smiths. But you know how Twitter and social media is, it's fueled by drama and controversy. That's not what gets the headlines or re-tweets. Morrissey's the one that attacked Johnny with that ill-conceived open letter which was frankly embarrassing and untrue. Of course Johnny's going to respond to that. Why wouldn't he, that was a very personal attack. It just completely laid bare to the world that their relationship was irrevocably broken.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
Yes, of course Johnny has benefitted from Morrissey being out of favor. But really, whose fault is that? It's not Johnny's fault that Morrissey is dismantling any goodwill he's earned through the Smiths and his early solo career. If you've read Johnny's book or listened to any of his older podcasts, he always gave full credit to Morrissey and talked in glowing terms about the Smiths. But you know how Twitter and social media is, it's fueled by drama and controversy. That's not what gets the headlines or re-tweets. Morrissey's the one that attacked Johnny with that ill-conceived open letter which was frankly embarrassing and untrue. Of course Johnny's going to respond to that. Why wouldn't he, that was a very personal attack. It just completely laid bare to the world that their relationship was irrevocably broken.
I still don't know what to make of the open letter. It was quite personal in parts ('you don't know me, move on' etc) - but at the same time, he sounded like a wounded kid crying because Mum doesn't love him anymore. Like he wanted JM to refute it all and reassure him that wasn't an 'eyesore monster' ... I think that was the heart of it but like everything with M, it backfired.
 

Catholic

English Blood, Irish Heart
Many excellent points, Amy. Believe it or not, I hope to cut, paste and file away your acute analysis here.
 

Catholic

English Blood, Irish Heart
I shall add to the above by saying that I truly appreciate how — speaking in Jungian terminology now— you can see each of Marr and Morrissey's shadows and yet retain such great empathy and intelligent concern for them both for them both.
 
N

No Fuehrer Dates

Guest
As far as I can see, 3 major things have contributed to the “Marr hatred” on here.
  1. The Great Estrangement with Moz, the general froideur between them and the cattiness that some fans seem to be absorbing. That situation should be heartbreaking for Smiths fans, I don’t understand how anyone could possibly enjoy it.

  2. The bizarre circumstance of JM going solo late in life and suddenly becoming visible / being exalted in the media at a time when Moz’ reputation is at an all-time low. A situation that just highlights and compounds the general misery of #1

  3. He’s over-exposed now. For an indie guitarist, he is absolutely everywhere and it gets tiresome, he’s even flogging shoes. He can’t particularly sing, he can’t write lyrics, even his fans acknowledge that - and yet he’s become a ‘bulletproof’ figure in the Press, just because The Singer is seen as so awful. It leaves a bad taste.
I don’t think JM created or ever intended this set of circumstances – ultimately he’s not responsible for what another adult says and does, and he has a right to pursue his own career. Even so, it’s hard to look at the current situation and not think that he has benefited very heavily from the Fall of Moz. Too heavily. And where he could have tried to balance the narrative a bit (‘the one good Smith’ etc etc), he didn’t. He watched M being publicly mauled and eventually, he joined in - knowing just how much it would hurt and doing it just to please idiots on Twitter. I love Johnny but even for me, that's hard to take.
Mostly that Johnny Marr isn't racist or extremely right-wing.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I still don't know what to make of the open letter. It was quite personal in parts ('you don't know me, move on' etc) - but at the same time, he sounded like a wounded kid crying because Mum doesn't love him anymore. Like he wanted JM to refute it all and reassure him that wasn't an 'eyesore monster' ... I think that was the heart of it but like everything with M, it backfired.

Why oh why did he have to do it in public like that? Yes, the letter did make Morrissey seem like a wounded child, that after all these years he still can't get Johnny's leaving out of his system. We know how Morrissey can hang on to grudges. And I think he wounded Johnny as well with it. It was cringeworthy, surprising, ultimately sad.
 

Catholic

English Blood, Irish Heart
Something interesting re the letter I noticed was that in an interview Marr said the letter had taken him by surprise.

Then he definitely qualified his words, indicating it wasn't completely by surprise. Indicating he may have anticipated at least something about the letter.

Wish I had a link for this. But it made me wonder if something had happened between them privately before the Open Letter.

Any thoughts?
 

Redacted

I think I must be, absolutely, a total sex object.
Hushand and I are both Smiths fans. We supported both Moz and Marr solo. I was still a Johnny fan until fairly recently. The Rick Astley thing brought out an ugliness in Johnny that I found shocking. I also became aware of all the things he was saying and has said about Morrissey, which was completely uncalled for, but he knows he won't get interviews unless he does that. Seeing how he treats people in general on social media was also quite shocking. He tries to act like he is not THAT miserable prick, but he really is and I had heard stories about him a while ago that lined up with that behavior. Then the Moz thing exploded, and he is right. Johnny cannot keep his mouth shut about him. Maybe if Johnny lived up to his own hype and was a better person and artist, some of this could be overlooked, but he is completely fake and highly overrated and he makes the mistake of believing his own press. He talks himself up qute a bit but never delivers, he has to rely on the Smiths and Morrissey's lyrics to even get people to want to listen to him since his solo stuff is so bad. Also, Nile joining in is really pathetic, I really do wonder what went on in that home that Nile has such a hatred of Morrissey.

at one point he gently calls out someone for looking down at their phone with the pitch-perfect “I hope you’re texting ‘Johnny Marr is f***ing badass'” = conceited asshole, it is never about the audience with him, it's always about him. He has the uncanny inability to connect with the audience, even in very small venues, which is basically the opposite of Morrissey.

I do not like 2 faced people who kick former friends when they are down, and that is exactly who Marr is. It was really devastating to learn that Marr continued his attacks on Morrissey after his mother died and then even further when Morrissey publicly admitted he had a nervous breakdown. Just gruesome.

These are just some of my thoughts, the others are posted in various places on this site.
 
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Catholic

English Blood, Irish Heart
Thank you, Redacted. At times, I wonder if your language re Marr need not be quite so harsh.

But I really do appreciate hearing your impressions and insights into this awful tragedy. And that, of course, you care for Morrissey—as do I.
 

Redacted

I think I must be, absolutely, a total sex object.
Thank you, Redacted. At times, I wonder if your language re Marr need not be quite so harsh.

But I really do appreciate hearing your impressions and insights into this awful tragedy. And that, of course, you care for Morrissey—as do I.
I don't think my language is harsh.
Interesting fact about me and this site - I have never judged anyone or called them out or attacked for their criticism of Morrissey. I expect the same courtesy.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Hushand and I are both Smiths fans. We supported both Moz and Marr solo. I was still a Johnny fan until fairly recently. The Rick Astley thing brought out an ugliness in Johnny that I found shocking. I also became aware of all the things he was saying and has said about Morrissey, which was completely uncalled for, but he knows he won't get interviews unless he does that. Seeing how he treats people in general on social media was also quite shocking. He tries to act like he is not THAT miserable prick, but he really is and I had heard stories about him a while ago that lined up with that behavior. Then the Moz thing exploded, and he is right. Johnny cannot keep his mouth shut about him. Maybe if Johnny lived up to his own hype and was a better person and artist, some of this could be overlooked, but he is completely fake and highly overrated and he makes the mistake of believing his own press. He talks himself up qute a bit but never delivers, he has to rely on the Smiths and Morrissey's lyrics to even get people to want to listen to him since his solo stuff is so bad. Also, Nile joining in is really pathetic, I really do wonder what went on in that home that Nile has such a hatred of Morrissey.

at one point he gently calls out someone for looking down at their phone with the pitch-perfect “I hope you’re texting ‘Johnny Marr is f***ing badass'” = conceited asshole, it is never about the audience with him, it's always about him. He has the uncanny inability to connect with the audience, even in very small venues, which is basically the opposite of Morrissey.

I do not like 2 faced people who kick former friends when they are down, and that is exactly who Marr is. It was really devastating to learn that Marr continued his attacks on Morrissey after his mother died and then even further when Morrissey publicly admitted he had a nervous breakdown. Just gruesome.

These are just some of my thoughts, the others are posted in various places on this site.

That's hilarious. You're acting as if Morrissey's never said anything bad about anyone. You know as well as I do that Morrissey has a long history of insulting people. I don't see why you don't hold that against him.

Let's see how about this famed Morrissey quote about Elton John: “Bring me the head of Elton John…which is one instance in which meat would not be murder if it were served on a plate.” Or Black music: "I detest Stevie Wonder. I think Diana Ross is awful. I hate all those records in the Top 40 – Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston. I think they’re vile in the extreme.” Or this bit from Brix Smith from the Fall looking for her husband: " I remember we were all playing a gig in Manchester, and the smoke alarm went off in the hotel. I was quite panicked. I saw Morrissey, and asked if he’d seen Mark, and he said: “Yeah, he’s upstairs burning.” I never spoke to him again after that."
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
Why oh why did he have to do it in public like that? Yes, the letter did make Morrissey seem like a wounded child, that after all these years he still can't get Johnny's leaving out of his system. We know how Morrissey can hang on to grudges. And I think he wounded Johnny as well with it. It was cringeworthy, surprising, ultimately sad.
I have no idea. All it really did was make a bad situation worse and guarantee that journalists would ask about it in every interview (if they didn't before). Their UK houses are five minutes' drive from each other, it could have been sorted out privately.

After Johnny joined the Killers at Glasto in 2019, the official Moz account re-tweeted an article where Brandon said "Morrissey is still a king" - with Johnny in the photo.

still a king.jpg


It seemed obvious to me, back then, that this stuff ^ is the kind of comment he really wanted to hear from Johnny, more than anyone else. The letter just sounds like he got sick of waiting, you know - 'I've never attacked you, I've openly said you were a genius, yet...". A few kind words in his direction, at the right time, would probably have prevented it all.
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><>
Why oh why did he have to do it in public like that?
Yes why did Johnny have to reply in public also? I mean, if you think he’s better than that, or at least a better person than Morrissey.

Just goes to show.


Yes, the letter did make Morrissey seem like a wounded child, that after all these years he still can't get Johnny's leaving out of his system. We know how Morrissey can hang on to grudges. And I think he wounded Johnny as well with it. It was cringeworthy, surprising, ultimately sad.
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
Or this bit from Brix Smith from the Fall looking for her husband: " I remember we were all playing a gig in Manchester, and the smoke alarm went off in the hotel. I was quite panicked. I saw Morrissey, and asked if he’d seen Mark, and he said: “Yeah, he’s upstairs burning.” I never spoke to him again after that."

Is that really an insult, though? I guess it does imply that Smith would be so inebriated that he'd burn to death in a hotel fire. But it's pretty impressive if it is an insult: to be that acerbic and flippant on the spot, and to direct it at the man's worried wife. You do have to solidly score one for Morrissey there.
 

Malarkey

Active Member
That's hilarious. You're acting as if Morrissey's never said anything bad about anyone. You know as well as I do that Morrissey has a long history of insulting people. I don't see why you don't hold that against him.

Let's see how about this famed Morrissey quote about Elton John: “Bring me the head of Elton John…which is one instance in which meat would not be murder if it were served on a plate.” Or Black music: "I detest Stevie Wonder. I think Diana Ross is awful. I hate all those records in the Top 40 – Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston. I think they’re vile in the extreme.” Or this bit from Brix Smith from the Fall looking for her husband: " I remember we were all playing a gig in Manchester, and the smoke alarm went off in the hotel. I was quite panicked. I saw Morrissey, and asked if he’d seen Mark, and he said: “Yeah, he’s upstairs burning.” I never spoke to him again after that."

None of those are serious insults - & he's never targeted anyone in the business the way he's been targeted.
 
N

Nakedbrunch

Guest
I still don't know what to make of the open letter. It was quite personal in parts ('you don't know me, move on' etc) - but at the same time, he sounded like a wounded kid crying because Mum doesn't love him anymore. Like he wanted JM to refute it all and reassure him that wasn't an 'eyesore monster' ... I think that was the heart of it but like everything with M, it backfired.
That letter was a long time coming. For Morrissey it was not only restrained but positively polite, I would have thrown in some f*** you's for good measure. It's quite clear that he doesn't expect Marr to say anything nice about him or defend him from criticism, the gist of the letter was that he wants Marr to stop mentioning him at all.
 
A

Aynsley Funbar

Guest
Johnny Marr's album Fever Dreams Pts. 1-4 is number 31 in the Top Vinyl Albums of 2022 and number 20 in the Top Vinyl Singles with Spirit Power and Soul.

 
A

Anonymous

Guest
What truth is that?

I'm not begrudging Johnny's success - like I said, he didn't choose the timing or circumstances. He's a great guitar player and if there were even an ounce of goodwill between him and Moz, I think most Smiths fans would be on cloud 9 - we can and go and see them both tour, buy two sets of albums, there wouldn't be any of this 'team' nonsense.

It's not like that though. Johnny has benefited from Moz being enormously 'out of favour', and he has undoubtedly added fuel to that fire by stoking up the Twitter mob. Fans all over social media were routinely saying things like, "Thank God one of The Smiths isn't a bellend", "#TeamMarr" (and much worse) - and not once did he ever step in to say "Hang on guys, that's not what The Smiths were about, we were a partnership." He just soaked up the attention, changed his profile pic to one from the Simpsons sketch, let his stupid son pour petrol on the situation... he absolutely joined in. Even when Moz was riding high in the media (with Quarry for example) - he wasn't sitting there smirking at the failure of Boomslang, he was still praising Johnny.
That's not fair comparison, as Johnny was doing the same until their relationship got worse after the publication of Morrissey's autobiography where he blamed Johnny for everything. Before that Johnny was usually very complimentary on Morrissey's talent and his solo stuff and he still does so when it comes to his contribution during the Smiths.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
That's not fair comparison, as Johnny was doing the same until their relationship got worse after the publication of Morrissey's autobiography where he blamed Johnny for everything. Before that Johnny was usually very complimentary on Morrissey's talent and his solo stuff and he still does so when it comes to his contribution during the Smiths.
Fair point, although he didn't blame Johnny for everything - I thought he was generally very kind about Johnny in Autobio.

From the outside, it looks like the rot set in when the public backlash started against Moz in 2018 (and the questions started coming to JM about Moz ruining the Smiths legacy, etc). I think the media stirred up the pot and who knows - maybe something happened in private before that, but I think the real 'turning point' was then.
 
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