Madstock

[Stuheff]

If you scroll down this thread, you'll find some links of old threads of the same subject.


I think it was partly Morrissey's fault to pick up a Union Jack flag and wrapping himself with it.

No, I cant agree with that. I remember arguing with people at the time (leftist types I was at school with) about the fact that an Anglo Irish singer picks up the Union flag - the flag of his birth nation and waves it is not racist.

It is a show of strength to the cretins who abuse that flag. They had already stolen Skinhead culture and made that about nationalistic ideoligies.

Thanks to the NME they did the same to Moz.

To have a pop at him for waving the flag of his nation - in whatever company - is ridiculous.

 

[Bluebirds]

I'm confused with the connotations of the Union flag. Noone batters an eyelid when an athlete (or more pertinently a black athlete) wraps themselves up in the flag. Its seen as positive and claiming the flag back from zealots and racists etc etc

However when certain sections of society or Northern Irish unionists (and Morrissey!) use it it suddenly becomes a symbol of overwhelming nationalism. And why Rangers fans and Swansea fans (jack barstewards! You deserved it today tho') fly it I'll never know.

Btw strictly speaking the Union Jack is the term for the flag when boats are sailiing at sea and flying the Union flag as they're British registered

 

[Stuheff]

I'm confused with the connotations of the Union flag. Noone batters an eyelid when an athlete (or more pertinently a black athlete) wraps themselves up in the flag. Its seen as positive and claiming the flag back from zealots and racists etc etc

However when certain sections of society or Northern Irish unionists (and Morrissey!) use it it suddenly becomes a symbol of overwhelming nationalism. And why Rangers fans and Swansea fans (jack barstewards! You deserved it today tho') fly it I'll never know.

Btw strictly speaking the Union Jack is the term for the flag when boats are sailiing at sea and flying the Union flag as they're British registered

Its because some people associate it with Oppresion - see the scots that call it hte Butchers Apron, historically inaccurate. And im afraid anyone who knows their History knows that Flag had little to do with oppression.

It has been hijacked over time and whenever someone tries to take it to the people, they are accused of nationalist sentiment... It is the flag of Britain. The union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In 1900 it would have been the flag of Great Britain and Ireland. Those are facts.. It is not the English Flag or the Scots or Welsh flag. And yet somehow it has been taken over by Leftists as an historically inaccuract oppression guide, and by Rightists as a rally point for 'all fings that make dis c***ry grate innit'.

It is netiher of those things, it is an amalgamated flag of 4 countries. It is the embodiment of Democracy and globalism. However, as it is no ONES flag it is hard to defend or get behind, and no one wishes to make a case for it as it is unfasionable - as Morrissey found to his cost.

 

[Emotional Guide Dog]

Why was ok for Oasis to do the same less than 4 years later?
Loads of bands did, Pulp, Suede..........but that was ok.

Suede, Oasis & Pulp didn't do it until after the press had invented 'Britpop' & said it was alright.

Blur did it in 1993 & the 'racism' accusations got thrown at them. It was widely ignored & forgotten because Blur weren't selling many records at the time.

 

[murder and desire]

because it wasn't just about Morrissey waving the flag.
that was the event that triggered the accusations but it followed a whole load of other stuff that Pulp, Suede, the Spice Girls, Oasis etc never had anything to do with e.g.

-Bengalis who don't 'belong here'
-Black and white people will never get along
-To get on Top of the Pops these days, one has to be, by law, black
-England for the English
-the gates are flooded and anybody can have access to England

obviously, some of these are song lyrics, some are from the post-Madstock era, but there is no denying Morrissey's ambiguity when it comes to this subject, and this ambiguity never applied to all the other singers and bands who used the union flag.

I understand what your saying but the very instances you have noted are storms in a DD cup created by the music press.
They know Moz isn't PC so it's very easy to go through quotes and lyrics to create a story.
The only reason the music press did this is because he wouldn't give them interviews anymore.
With Morrissey it's a case of he knows his reasons, he doesn't have to explain, especially to a group of people who are trying to frame him.

 

[Bluebirds]

Suede, Oasis & Pulp didn't do it until after the press had invented 'Britpop' & said it was alright.

Blur did it in 1993 & the 'racism' accusations got thrown at them. It was widely ignored & forgotten because Blur weren't selling many records at the time.

Good memory recall! They went for the Dr Martens look and all. I saw them that year (Modern Life Is Rubbish era) their look and imagery was obviously influenced by skinhead culture and some might say (if you'll pardon) Morrissey and/or the Smiths but you're right, they didn't get that much negative press yet arguably that record lay the foundations for their subsequent success.

I think they were on the verge of getting dropped by their label at the time?

 

[lainey]

I understand what your saying but the very instances you have noted are storms in a DD cup created by the music press.
They know Moz isn't PC so it's very easy to go through quotes and lyrics to create a story.
The only reason the music press did this is because he wouldn't give them interviews anymore.
With Morrissey it's a case of he knows his reasons, he doesn't have to explain, especially to a group of people who are trying to frame him.

Yes, All the above is the truth and has been confirmed by people who worked at the magazine at the time.(their names, most be in one of the threads) Thankfully, you can't buy and control everyone just most of those 'Britpop' lot.

 

[Maurice E]

Suede, Oasis & Pulp didn't do it until after the press had invented 'Britpop' & said it was alright.

Blur did it in 1993 & the 'racism' accusations got thrown at them. It was widely ignored & forgotten because Blur weren't selling many records at the time.

well I was a big Blur and Morrissey at the time, and I was very interested in the way it was handled.
basically, Albarn dealt with the whole issue much more deftly than Morrissey. he made it clear that his celebration of Britishness was much more about modern-day, multi-cultural Britain than Morrissey's 1950's nostalgia.
as I've mentioned elsewhere in this thread, Morrissey didn't get into trouble just for waving the union flag - it was for all the other things that he'd said in lyrics and in interviews (about black and white people never getting on, having to be black to go on top of the pops, England for the English, Bengalis not belonging here etc).
it is ironic however, that Asian Rut, a clearly anti-racial violence song also gets cited as evidence for his dubious views (presumably just because it has the word 'Asian' in it).

 

[King Leer]

Big fan of Modern Life is Rubbish-era Blur, but I'm pretty sure Albarn got a little scared at the notion of losing his career over a few 'ard-looking photos. Other than his haircut tell me this isn't the last type of person someone of colour in "multi-cultural England" wants to see coming toward them on a lonely street.

Years later (after Britpop had been declared dead) I remember a minor flare-up over the cover (and lyrics) of that Bluetones single "Keep the Home Fires Burning". Talk about an innocuous, friendly band and even they get the PC brigade after them.

Morrissey had been rubbing people the wrong way for a few years and the NME, in its boneheaded arrogance, thought "It's time we took Mozzer down a notch...or ten."

 

[Emotional Guide Dog]

Good memory recall! They went for the Dr Martens look and all. I saw them that year (Modern Life Is Rubbish era) their look and imagery was obviously influenced by skinhead culture and some might say (if you'll pardon) Morrissey and/or the Smiths but you're right, they didn't get that much negative press yet arguably that record lay the foundations for their subsequent success.

I think they were on the verge of getting dropped by their label at the time?

They were. The label rejected Modern Life Is Rubbish unless Albarn went away & put a single on it. So Albarn went away, wrote For Tomorrow & for me, Britpop was born.

Even then Blur's manager had to convince the label's Dave Balfe that it was the way to go. He got it bang on by saying that Modern Life Is Rubbish set the scene, Parklife the following year blew the bleeding doors off.

 

[Emotional Guide Dog]

well I was a big Blur and Morrissey at the time, and I was very interested in the way it was handled.
basically, Albarn dealt with the whole issue much more deftly than Morrissey. he made it clear that his celebration of Britishness was much more about modern-day, multi-cultural Britain than Morrissey's 1950's nostalgia.

What Albarn did was come to the press from their side. They were all semi posh Uni boys & girls and he managed to convince them of his intentions. I'm pretty sure Allbran's 'British Image' explaination was still in their minds when they were trying to find the 'next big thing' after Kurt Cobain shot down grunge.

Morrissey basically shut up shop, he didn't want to explain himself & even if he did, those same posh Uni boys & girls didn't want to listen.

While I'm here, did Bluetones really get grief over the Home Fires Burning cover? I had no idea, I've got that cover somewhere, will have to have a butchers. Love that song though, been listening to it today. Unbelievable as it may seem, The Bluetones are still going... somewhere. The last Britpop survivors.

 

[cih]

The question about his views on race is just a moot point as far as I'm concerned - Caravaggio was a murderer, Ike Turner was a wife-beater, Picasso was a misogynist, Andre Breton a homophobe, Chuck Berry a git, Charlie Parker a heroin addict... they all produced great art. If Morrissey makes a living expelling bile, some of it won't taste good - so what? Everybody, unfortunately, has a little racism deep down somewhere, Morrissey no exception - or for that matter the music press who talk about Hip Hop and RnB being 'black music', so implying that rock and pop is 'white music'... As somebody once said "Racism is not like pregnancy... it's not possible to be 'a little bit pregnant', but with the other, various gradations are possible whether or not they are admitted to"...

 

[Kewpie]

The question about his views on race is just a moot point as far as I'm concerned - Caravaggio was a murderer, Ike Turner was a wife-beater, Picasso was a misogynist, Andre Breton a homophobe, Chuck Berry a git, Charlie Parker a heroin addict... they all produced great art. If Morrissey makes a living expelling bile, some of it won't taste good - so what? Everybody, unfortunately, has a little racism deep down somewhere, Morrissey no exception - or for that matter the music press who talk about Hip Hop and RnB being 'black music', so implying that rock and pop is 'white music'... As somebody once said "Racism is not like pregnancy... it's not possible to be 'a little bit pregnant', but with the other, various gradations are possible whether or not they are admitted to"...

Morrissey trusted the intelligence of the listeners, but unfortunately some people didn't get what he meant.

No need for comparing with him to those horrible people if you believe Morrissey is not a racist.

 

[cih]

Maybe he's not 'a racist' - however, he has proved that he's held a few racist views in the past. But he's not betraying any kind of blissful harmony that otherwise exists in the musical world he inhabits.

Also I'm not saying that those other people I mentioned are 'horrible people' - just that the art is separate from the artist, all those people did great things.

 

[mozmic_dancer]

Maybe he's not 'a racist' - however, he has proved that he's held a few racist views in the past. But he's not betraying any kind of blissful harmony that otherwise exists in the musical world he inhabits.

Also I'm not saying that those other people I mentioned are 'horrible people' - just that the art is separate from the artist, all those people did great things.

You make a good point. Morrissey is an artist of contradictions, for how is it possible for an artist to write such beautiful and moving songs about the human condition while at the same time being accused of having such ugly and "racist" views. There seems to be a disconnect there.

I would like to give credit to Morrissey for being more open to different cultures and ideas now than when he was much younger. He seemed to be as a young man to be much more xenophobic. With the Smiths, they really didn't tour much outside of the UK and US because I believe Morrissey did not have any interest in the Smiths being anything more than an English phenomenon. This is where he may have differed in attitude with Marr. Even in his early interviews, he didn't seem interested in anything outside his English culture.

Now, he seems to be alot more worldly; he likes his foreign movies, he has toured extensively in Europe, Mexico, the Middle East, Scandinavia and even Eastern Europe. I give him credit for trying, anyway. It's like he is trying to overcome his insular nature.

 

[King Leer]

I really like these two paragraphs. I haven't seen it articulated this way on the boards.

While lyrical snippets like "welfare house" might get on some purists' goats I'm glad Morrissey has become much more of an international playboy over the years.

I would like to give credit to Morrissey for being more open to different cultures and ideas now than when he was much younger. He seemed to be as a young man to be much more xenophobic. With the Smiths, they really didn't tour much outside of the UK and US because I believe Morrissey did not have any interest in the Smiths being anything more than an English phenomenon. This is where he may have differed in attitude with Marr. Even in his early interviews, he didn't seem interested in anything outside his English culture.

Now, he seems to be alot more worldly; he likes his foreign movies, he has toured extensively in Europe, Mexico, the Middle East, Scandinavia and even Eastern Europe. I give him credit for trying, anyway. It's like he is trying to overcome his insular nature.

 

[murder and desire]

" I believe Morrissey did not have any interest in the Smiths being anything more than an English phenomenon. This is where he may have differed in attitude with Marr. Even in his early interviews, he didn't seem interested in anything outside his English culture."

This part isn't quite, true.
At the start Moz may have thought The Smiths would be no more than a local concern but it became clear there was an audience out there and Morrissey wanted that audience and more.
If he hadn't they would have never went with a major label, Morrissey wouldn't have cared less about radio play etc.
It is true that Morrissey was quite closed off ( though not quite as closed he he makes out now) in a mental sense to the outside world.
That said there was more to Morrisseys world view than his Salford Side streets.
He had looked to London, America as well as taking in world cinema- as it's now known.

 

[murder and desire]

Big fan of Modern Life is Rubbish-era Blur, but I'm pretty sure Albarn got a little scared at the notion of losing his career over a few 'ard-looking photos. Other than his haircut tell me this isn't the last type of person someone of colour in "multi-cultural England" wants to see coming toward them on a lonely street.

Years later (after Britpop had been declared dead) I remember a minor flare-up over the cover (and lyrics) of that Bluetones single "Keep the Home Fires Burning". Talk about an innocuous, friendly band and even they get the PC brigade after them.

Morrissey had been rubbing people the wrong way for a few years and the NME, in its boneheaded arrogance, thought "It's time we took Mozzer down a notch...or ten."

Not to be rude but I wish people wouldn't mention Albarn in the same breath as Morrissey.
Albarn, is a talent with melody and has made some good pop songs BUT he and Moz are very different Men and artists.
Albarn, Came from a wealthy background and wrote (from blurs 1st LP all through Brit Poop) from a very distant and cartoon stand point.
There was no real emotion in any song. He didn't understand the people he was writing about at all or himself- all very middle class 6th form.
Also, Albarn created Brit Poop with a few people from a PR company and the Music Press.
He was always hand in hand with the music press, as were Pulp.
The Smiths were there own animal.

Albarn, only handled it more "deftly", because he was friends with the music press and they weren't hounding him like they were Moz.
For Morrissey to even speak to the music press would play into their hands.

 

[cih]

Albarn... didn't understand the people he was writing about at all or himself- all very middle class 6th form.

Right. Step up Guy Ritchie!

I just remembered another important factor about what happened at Finsbury Park (or rather, what happened in the press afterwards). The year 1992 was a very bad time to adopt the Union flag and the ambiguous imagery of the skinhead. This was a time when fascist political parties grew rapidly in the UK and Europe - don't know if anyone remembers the demonstrations on Brick Lane against the BNP, either '92 or '93 (they got their first council seat in Tower Hamlets around that time) - the Anti-Nazi League was relaunched, and in 1993 Stephen Lawrence was murdered. The same year a Bengali student was attacked by BNP activists in the Isle of Dogs... I remember, as a skinhead, adopting the S.H.A.R.P. logo (Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice) on my jacket in 1991 - you had to be really explicit about your politics then. There was not, at that time, a general awareness that most, or any skinheads were anti-racist.

 

[murder and desire]

Right. Step up Guy Ritchie!

I just remembered another important factor about what happened at Finsbury Park (or rather, what happened in the press afterwards). The year 1992 was a very bad time to adopt the Union flag and the ambiguous imagery of the skinhead. This was a time when fascist political parties grew rapidly in the UK and Europe - don't know if anyone remembers the demonstrations on Brick Lane against the BNP, either '92 or '93 (they got their first council seat in Tower Hamlets around that time) - the Anti-Nazi League was relaunched, and in 1993 Stephen Lawrence was murdered. The same year a Bengali student was attacked by BNP activists in the Isle of Dogs... I remember, as a skinhead, adopting the S.H.A.R.P. logo (Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice) on my jacket in 1991 - you had to be really explicit about your politics then. There was not, at that time, a general awareness that most, or any skinheads were anti-racist.

Cih,
I went to that gig also, I was quite young then, as soon as I heard Morrissey wasn't there I went back home.
I like Madness but I was furious and I sort of guessed what had happened.
The thing is most non media, working class people know skinheads aren't always racist.
Its just the silly media and the middle class people whom have never really got their shoes dirty in life who get things incorrect.