Madstock

[cih]

Hi,
Apologies for starting a new thread on an ancient topic - I couldn't find how to reply to the old ones I found!
I was googling about the event and found this site and thought I'd chip in my view - that is, the view of a skinhead Madness fan on the day, central front of the crowd...

There is a general assessment from some that the main reason Morrissey was 'bottled' off stage was because he didn't fit the 'laddish' profile the audience demanded. Correct. Now, firstly, I like Morrissey - and I did NOT join in the barracking. But the skinheads around me were hostile BEFORE he came on stage. Ian Dury had just been on, I think(?), and he was ok - part of the norf London knees-up brigade... Gallon Drunk had been on and got FAR more stick than Morrissey - for acting hard and drinking cans of beer and taking themselves too seriously and looking like students pretending to be in a Jim Jarmusch movie.
Anyway, we were all getting impatient. During the wait for Morrissey, some skinheads starting taking the piss out of Morrissey fans - insinuating they were gay or had a crush on Morrissey. There was a bloke from the US near me who was getting abuse from a skinhead child. Morrissey was seen as a floppy, effeminate, poetic, self-pitying aesthete. He came on and things were going ok - nobody taking any notice of the lyrics - it was really irrelevant which songs he was singing, the skinheads wouldn't have known National Front Disco from Mull of Kintyre. But they were getting impatient already, and then, I think (but might be wrong) the banner was unveiled, or unfurled, or maybe people just started directing their attention at it - but a bloke in front of me was screaming "it's got f**k all to do with you" etc and people began throwing plastic bottles etc (nothing to do any serious damage - but cretinous anyway). The indignation was TOTALLY to do with the perception that Morrissey was attempting to ingratiate himself with the skinheads, but wasn't welcome. 100%
After he went off, things got worse, the crowd became a crush, people were being dragged out by security. One man was panicking and shouting 'we're all going to die" and a skin in front of me punched him in the face and so a bouncer leant over the barrier and strangled him until he stopped! I was getting squashed. Some half-naked idiot skinhead was standing on my shoulder feeling around in his underpants for something (!) Eventually Madness came on and started One Step Beyond and the whole crowd surged and the bouncers were going bonkers shouting "stupid crass behaviour" as they rescued people from getting trampled.
Anyway, that's all. Might be of mild interest to somebody!

 

[lainey]

It's always angered me that the music press have never questioned Madness on their skinhead following or the behaviour/beliefs of some of their fans.
I guess it's acceptable when it's Madness as........(fill in excuse)
It also amused me when this happened as it was blowned out of proportion, journalists lied, 'he walked out waving the flag'.....Morrissey was made to be reponsible for these fans actions as he playing with imagery. These were and are Madness Fans so what is it to do with Morrissey.

 

[cih]

Well, they were questioned about it in the very early days, Carl Smith made some ill-advised comment about 'why stop NF followers showing up at gigs - it's just a fad, it'll be football next week' or something along those lines and they got roasted for it. But the skinhead following is complicated. There will be some far right types there, but also a lot who are virulently anti-racist, as I was when I was a skinhead. Trouble is of course, the image is very ambiguous and the reason I stopped dressing in the 'gear' was when an old Asian lady crossed the road to avoid walking past me, and I thought enough was enough.
However, there is certainly a strong patriotism amongst a lot of these skinheads (a type of patriotism different from the "slate grey Victorian skies" kind of thing - though I wouldn't want to guess the exact nature or extent of it).

 

[CrystalGeezer]

Thanks, cih. I've been here for years and never fully understood that event until reading your perspective from the crowd.

 

[Kewpie]

Thanks, cih. I've been here for years and never fully understood that event until reading your perspective from the crowd.

If you scroll down this thread, you'll find some links of old threads of the same subject.


I think it was partly Morrissey's fault to pick up a Union Jack flag and wrapping himself with it.

From the beginning of Two-Tone movement Skinheads / NF idiots often caused troubles at the gigs, Morrissey definitely knew about the problem.

NME jumped on the moment to accuse him as a racist which was a typical lowest tabloid journalism.

 

[cih]

From the beginning of Two-Tone movement Skinheads / NF idiots often caused troubles at the gigs, Morrissey definitely knew about the problem.

Yes, but from where I was standing the issue wasn't the nationalist thing as such, but just that Morrissey was seen to be attempting to be something he wasn't, or he was making an artistic statement out of something which was 'anti-art' - the skinhead girl banner was a poetic, or artistic impression of something that was REAL to the audience. As a skinhead you weren't supposed to dwell on these things, to self-examine or analyse it, you were just supposed to DO it - "f**k art, let's dance"

Actually - a comparable incident... after being a skinhead, I went to art college, and did some photos of skinhead friends with some moody lighting etc and one of the older ones (who I knew less but had been into the scene for a long time) got pretty annoyed and said I was "trying too hard"...

 

[lainey]

.


I think it was partly Morrissey's fault to pick up a Union Jack flag and wrapping himself with it.
.

Why was ok for Oasis to do the same less than 4 years later?
Loads of bands did, Pulp, Suede..........but that was ok.

 

[Uncleskinny]

Why was ok for Oasis to do the same less than 4 years later?
Loads of bands did, Pulp, Suede..........but that was ok.

And the Spice Girls. What a damaging influence on the wee girls they were, the racist bitches.

P.

 

[Maurice E]

Why was ok for Oasis to do the same less than 4 years later? Loads of bands did, Pulp, Suede..........but that was ok.

because it wasn't just about Morrissey waving the flag.
that was the event that triggered the accusations but it followed a whole load of other stuff that Pulp, Suede, the Spice Girls, Oasis etc never had anything to do with e.g.

-Bengalis who don't 'belong here'
-Black and white people will never get along
-To get on Top of the Pops these days, one has to be, by law, black
-England for the English
-the gates are flooded and anybody can have access to England

obviously, some of these are song lyrics, some are from the post-Madstock era, but there is no denying Morrissey's ambiguity when it comes to this subject, and this ambiguity never applied to all the other singers and bands who used the union flag.

 

[mr.m]

Thanks for that, I've been reading up and watching videos of this lately. This has been a lot more insightful than any of the text.

 

[Tingle3]

I always thought that singing "London is dead, London is dead" was an ill-advised thing to do at a Madness gig in London. But yes, for me, impatience was the biggest problem of day. The crowd was in the main just wanting to see Madness, not Morrissey. After Morrissey went 'ill' on the Bowie tour I wrote to him and said he really never should support another act. He really shouldn't.

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the "Insights" into the day itself, C I H.....
I only remember reading about the gig at the time in NME....and thought that they were pretty biased against Morrissey with the whole "Racicist" accusations thing....
I'm certainly NO expert, but Morrissey has always tried to pass himself off as a Truly "Engish" artist, and maybe, just maybe, he thought that a "Madness" crowd would have a few more Potential fans for him in it somewhere....
I do remember the NME at the time being WAYYYY over the top with slagging Mozzer, and quoting certain quotes and lyrics out of context...
I would also agree that certain sections of the Madness audience would indeed see morrissey as just a limp-wristed wooly-woofter ( thanx, NO DOUBT, to the Smiths "Flowery" heyday), and would see him as encroaching on "Their" territory....
Again , from Memory, it seemed that the NME ( Remember....this tired old Rag USED to Once actually Matter,...) was out to "Get" Morrissey, and nearly darned well finished his Career....

I remember at the time thinking what is Morrissey playing at ?? the Real hard-core "Skinhead" crew ( then, and now...)take their symbolism VERY seriously, and a soft northern Jessie flouncing around with a flag in front of a photo of "Skin" girls probably would NOT go down too well....

Maybe, for his next attempt at "Controversy", he should try driving a Harley Davidson onto A Motorhead stage at a Hells Angels arranged gig, and singing about a punctured Bicycle!!!....!!!

All in all,, an Interesting topic, and comments, all around!!! cheers!!

 

[mozfish]

i also was there that day with my sister. we started out near the front, but when Ian Dury came on it started to get rough, im all for a mosh up, but this was getting violent! there were many moz tshirts around, and i heard this commented on in a negative way. we moved back, when moz came on the back drop caused one skin to decide it was 'Myra Hindly'!!??.wtf?? there was shouting and general piss taking, must admit i blocked this out, i was there to see moz, not madness! the flag didnt register with me in a negative way at all, many madness fans are not racists! it was just a few ignorant , impatient people out to cause a problem. the trouble makers would have attacked who ever was up there unless it was an artist of the two tone era or similar. they wanted madness on, it had been a long warm day and much alcohol had been drunk !!! simple as that.
tingle 3..totally agree, moz IS NOT a support act!

 

[cih]

there were many moz tshirts around, and i heard this commented on in a negative way.

Yep - it was like "where the hell did this lot come from??".

The previous year to Madstock, or maybe the same year, I went to a ‘ska festival’ in Sheffield. Two Madness members were there in their new band ‘the Nutty Boys’, and met with extreme hostility from the crowd who were demanding they play ‘ska’ (in other words, the four or five old Madness songs that fitted the bill) - a bloke at the bar threw a pint of beer at the band but it was dodged - then Lee Thompson (the flying sax player from Madness) climbed up on the speakers and did chimp impressions at the crowd. Then they abandoned the set. Afterwards, a skinhead said to me "you ever heard that Jamaican ska? It's f***ing shite" - he had NO IDEA what ska was.
A lot of those ska gigs were like that at the time - Bad Manners, Selecter etc - loads of yobbish bravado. No visible racism though, there were too many hard skins who were against it - remember that Prince Buster showed up on stage at the end of Madstock.
The hardcore racist skins were separate and didn’t attend those gigs - I knew one or two, they invited me on a white power march! Then realised I wasn’t into it - “you’re not one of these f***ing ska skins are you?” (asked with a jocular laugh). The same people had ambushed a Bad Manners concert with tear gas (or so they claimed). They shopped at ‘Merc’ and Cutdown Cavern in Ganton Street off Carnaby Street, which were exposed on BBC2's Def II with the NME’s Steven Wells - who also questioned New Order and Joy Division's possible fascist influences.
I spoke with Lee Thompson several times and he was great - really nice, and you’d never guess he was the writer of such self-probing or sensitive songs. Madness had to appear as laddish as their audience and underplayed their sophistication. Why? well, they sold more records than anyone else in the eighties so there’s an answer there somewhere - the general public is suspicious of art... entertainment is far preferable. Pete Townshend got it right - “steer clear of ‘quality’ and you’re alright”. At least their actual product itself wasn’t compromised.

 

[King Leer]

Always loved (and still love) some of the skins' favourite brands - Merc, Lonsdale, Ben Sherman and Fred Perry. Did my part to reclaim them for non-racist, non skinheaded people (no slight against the considerable number of anti-racist skins, but people's first thought when they see a skin is "uh-oh", especially in North America).

Some videos of the whole Madstock set were posted on Youtube last year. Here's NFD:

Edit: By the way, was this The last time Morrissey actually sang the "...front disco" part live?

 

[Danny_]

I think Morrissey was well aware how his reflecting the skinhead culture back to skinheads would be taken. I doubt very much he expected to be accepted by them or wanted to become one of them. No one is more aware of their own image as him and I don't think he'd been under any illusions about how they'd see him as a soft poof.

That was probably the whole point. The projection of their culture by a "poof" was meant to be challenging and subversive. It was meant to wind them up.

He probably didn't expect the middle classed journalists to miss the point completely and jump on the homophobic bandwagon: "is this a gay thing?"

 

[Kewpie]

I think Morrissey was well aware how his reflecting the skinhead culture back to skinheads would be taken. I doubt very much he expected to be accepted by them or wanted to become one of them. No one is more aware of their own image as him and I don't think he'd been under any illusions about how they'd see him as a soft poof.

That was probably the whole point. The projection of their culture by a "poof" was meant to be challenging and subversive. It was meant to wind them up.

He probably didn't expect the middle classed journalists to miss the point completely and jump on the homophobic bandwagon: "is this a gay thing?"

I bet Andrew Collins and Stuart Maconie would be gutted to read your post.

 

[Cemetry Gates]

I think Morrissey was well aware how his reflecting the skinhead culture back to skinheads would be taken. I doubt very much he expected to be accepted by them or wanted to become one of them. No one is more aware of their own image as him and I don't think he'd been under any illusions about how they'd see him as a soft poof.

That was probably the whole point. The projection of their culture by a "poof" was meant to be challenging and subversive. It was meant to wind them up.

He probably didn't expect the middle classed journalists to miss the point completely and jump on the homophobic bandwagon: "is this a gay thing?"

I can't comment about Collins, but I hardly think you can call Maconie 'middle class' - he's from Wigan!!

 

[not_me_not_I]

I think Morrissey was well aware how his reflecting the skinhead culture back to skinheads would be taken. I doubt very much he expected to be accepted by them or wanted to become one of them. No one is more aware of their own image as him and I don't think he'd been under any illusions about how they'd see him as a soft poof.

That was probably the whole point. The projection of their culture by a "poof" was meant to be challenging and subversive. It was meant to wind them up.

I think it's a little bit funny how the skinheads "got" the subversion bit, while the rest of the world cried, "He's racist!" This, as you say, misses the point entirely.

 

[Raphael Lambach]

I think it was partly Morrissey's fault to pick up a Union Jack flag and wrapping himself with it.

NME jumped on the moment to accuse him as a racist which was a typical lowest tabloid journalism.

Why was ok for Oasis to do the same less than 4 years later?
Loads of bands did, Pulp, Suede..........but that was ok.

I think there's only a purpose to accuse Morrissey of being racist: Morrissey belongs to past generation of singers then, NME would like to promote new artist and to manage that the magazine tried to destroy Morrissey's solo career.

lainey said something important: lots of bands made the same act after Morrissey and no one was accused of being racist or anything like that. It means that when they didn't want to appoint the finger on someone's face, waving a flag was quite different.