Johnny
Well-Known Member
It's true.
Let's talk about 'Beethoven Was Deaf'
- Thread starter AtImber2022
- Start date
Was I ever any good
Labour to my death.
Well it’s the first I’ve ever heard of such skullduggery.....
I’m quite shocked really...
I’m even thinking of calling
Trading standards......
Yes Morrissey the phone will ring
I’m quite shocked really...
I’m even thinking of calling
Trading standards......
Yes Morrissey the phone will ring
ALLIE WALLS
Junior Member
Deep purples live LP "made in Japan" from 1972, often considered to be the best live album ever was put together from various gigs.
Harsh Truth
Ever Felt Had?
Sometimes, yes, but in this case the packaging specifically states that the songs were all from one specific date.
AtImber2022
Seasick, Yet Still Docked
Most live releases (audio or video) are culled from several concerts.
Changing the order of songs is slightly more unusual but also not unprecedented.
I still think Beethoven Was Deaf is a fantastic document in the Morrissey catalogue.
Changing the order of songs is slightly more unusual but also not unprecedented.
I still think Beethoven Was Deaf is a fantastic document in the Morrissey catalogue.
Agreed, Jamie. It also features a beautiful and underrated version of "He Knows I'd Love To See Him."
I don't know why Moz didn't bring back Gary and Spencer for the recording of Vauxhall.
Jamie
Bluff, Ardour & Assoc.
Prevailing thought seems to have been that they weren't musically suited to the quieter fare on the album so Morrissey asked Boz to find others. Morrissey clearly had second thoughts about it because Gary & Spencer were brought back to record "Moonriver" and "A Swallow On My Neck" around March 1994. But they were out again for the "Boxers"/"Sunny" session later in the year. Spencer got reinstated for the In Person tour which led directly into Southpaw Grammar. Imo, that was a smart move - I find Woodie Taylor's drumming to be distinctly underwhelming on the Miraval sessions.
Juan Dulces
I just see trees.
Oh yeah, He Knows on Beethoven is wonderful. It's so much more personal too, as he starts with 'I HAVE LIVED in...' instead of 'cause when I lived in'. Back then when I first listened to that live version, that's when I really knew what he was saying in that song - and it's been a track that I hold dear ever since.
I like both Gary and Spencer too, but Morrissey hit the jackpot the day Boz told him about Jonny B., and however Woodie Taylor got roped into that project - who cares? That duo either is the best (or is tied) as the top rhythm section in his solo recording history at least, as I don't think Woodie played any live shows with the band, but I could be wrong. I'm certain that Gary and Spencer too would respect Morrissey's decision to replace them for V&I - once they heard the final result. Woodie and Jonny were just better for V&I's songs (and Boxers/Sunny) - I don't know how it happened that those two came on board for that project, but the result was as smooth as silk.
You know what else is a good Morrissey live album? The live disc that came with the V&I reissue. Spencer plays drums on that one.
Juan Dulces
I just see trees.
Woodie is an accurate and dynamic player. The drums were not in the forefront of any Morrissey recordings that featured him, but he provided a purposeful and swift pulse that drove the music forward. You said it best with 'quieter fare', where being a 'sensitive' and more musical drummer would matter.
Are you sure it wasn't Spencer on the Miraval sessions? I mean, the drums on Miraval Southpaw are pretty identical to the drums on SG's Southpaw - and that's just one big similarity on Miraval vs. SG proper - regarding the drums. And just so you know, I love Spencer's role in the band history because he was the first drummer in the 'Morrissey Band' - whose sound was guitar-driven and pseudo-rockabilly to boot (so the drums are going to be much more simplistic anyway), he was also their pal, fit the band image, and wrote a few good songs. I love how he's the player on SG, because the sound was back to being more 'guitar rock' so to speak.
Also, Woodie certainly played on Swallow (Spencer just didn't drum that way). You can just tell that the musicians who recorded V&I are the same exact players on Boxers/Sunny singles and the B-sides therein. Hands down. I can't possibly see that I'd be wrong about Swallow, at least not the version of Swallow that we've all heard from the Sunny single and Burglary Years.
I think that people love Spencer in a nostalgic way mostly. He was Morrissey's best touring drummer until there was someone better - and if you compare him to Andrew P. - he was never the best studio drummer for Morrissey. I do, however, think Spencer was a WAY(!) better fit for the band than Dean Butterworth. There are plenty of live recordings, featuring Spencer, where a song's speed went up and down because of him not keeping the correct time, also several moments where Spencer dropped a stick (no biggie in general, happens to the greats like Gadd, Copeland, Hawkins) yet the song always took a little too much extra time (because he's not really a drummer) to find it's path again - and Spencer knows all of this. He also knows that he specifically said, in an interview, that he 'never liked playing drums'. You know who would never say that? --- Taylor, Paresi, Matt Walker. You can hear that they love to play the drums.
Jamie
Bluff, Ardour & Assoc.
Woodie played on Miraval. He said so himself in an interview and Simon Goddard corroborated it in Mozipedia. And Spencer IS the drummer on "Swallow" - don't have a source offhand but it was stated at some point by someone in the band. Compare "Swallow" to "Black-Eyed Susan" on the same single - two completely different sounding drummers, with the only similarity being the use of a splash cymbal, which Spencer used for In Person and Southpaw (visible in Introducing and on Jools Holland '95). The snare fills are similar to Spencer's work on Southpaw, esp the first triplet. The back and forth alternations between thin and heavy crashes is also something of a trademark in Spencer's playing - abundant examples going back to Kill Uncle tour boots, but it's strongly evident on Beethoven and Maladjusted, too. If anything, the reason the drums sound similar to the Vauxhall recordings is because Supple/Lillywhite mixed them lower - whereas on Southpaw they are prominent and forceful. If you listen to "Swallow" back to back with "Dagenham Dave," "Do Your Best And Don't Worry," or "Best Friend on the Payroll," I think you'll hear it is Spencer.
I'm a drummer myself and the simpler work on the Miraval sessions sounds nothing like Southpaw Grammar. It's rote time-keeping, no flair or much in the way of fills. While he suited Vauxhall perfectly, Wooden was not the best fit for the Southpaw songs.
Juan Dulces
I just see trees.
Yep, you're right about Miraval. I don't know all the Morrissey 'lore' really, just the songs. Since you know drums, you know that Spencer is sometimes clumsy and forces the beat - that's what threw me off. Miraval has a few of those moments, though to be honest I haven't studied Miraval - and was primarily going off of the Southpaw song itself. And yes, I agree that Spencer was the correct choice for SG. But, since Taylor was the drummer for that session, I will go back and listen to it closely to see if there's anything I enjoy about the drumming on it - because I respect Taylor and enjoy his playing. Honestly, I was also confused about what those sessions actually were --- basically demos for the SG album, as the drumming on Southpaw itself was so similar to the finished result.
Yeah, Lillywhite fooled me good if the Swallow thing is true - it just fit so well with the natural sound of the others from that time. At least Spencer can be proud of his work on that track because that's one of Morrissey's top 50 universally I would think. From a Morrissey era filled with very 'pretty music', even though I'm surprised - I'm happy Spencer got to participate in that, and is on a released recording from that time. Although I may have been wrong, either way I'm happy with it. I love fun discussions about music where we get into the intricate details of the sounds themselves. That's right up my alley ---- kudos!!!
FYI --- I checked Passions Just Like Mine, where they have the song index - which for like 99% of songs gives a roster of the musicians who played on each one - but NOT Swallow. HAHAHA.
Wikipedia lists the single it was on - the personnel listed Taylor and no Spencer, so it is deceptive - though I'm certainly not one to constantly be fact checking, looking stuff up.
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Juan Dulces
I just see trees.
And hey Jamie --- we've had this type of chat before, 11 years ago
https://www.morrissey-solo.com/threads/woodie-taylor-on-memories-of-vauxhall-and-i.123034/
I am first Anonymous in that thread. At least we get to talk about it in greater detail this time around!
https://www.morrissey-solo.com/threads/woodie-taylor-on-memories-of-vauxhall-and-i.123034/
I am first Anonymous in that thread. At least we get to talk about it in greater detail this time around!
Jamie
Bluff, Ardour & Assoc.
And hey Jamie --- we've had this type of chat before, 11 years ago
https://www.morrissey-solo.com/threads/woodie-taylor-on-memories-of-vauxhall-and-i.123034/
I am first Anonymous in that thread. At least we get to talk about it in greater detail this time around!
I think this just means we've been around here too long!
Speaking of "A Swallow On My Neck" - since we've deviated WELL-CLEAR of Beethoven already - it's a shame the acoustic early version has yet to see light of day like "alternate mix" (circa 2004) from the scrapped Reprise remaster series.
It also would be nice if Alain could bend M's ear to resurrect this one a la "Our Frank." I was lucky enough to see it in 2000 but it merits revisitation.
Juan Dulces
I just see trees.
I think this just means we've been around here too long!
Speaking of "A Swallow On My Neck" - since we've deviated WELL-CLEAR of Beethoven already - it's a shame the acoustic early version has yet to see light of day like "alternate mix" (circa 2004) from the scrapped Reprise remaster series.
It also would be nice if Alain could bend M's ear to resurrect this one a la "Our Frank." I was lucky enough to see it in 2000 but it merits revisitation.
Awesome! Hey, we were eventually given I Want A Boy (of all the possible rarities), so I'm hopeful for that one down the road. Also, he brought Lazy Sunbathers to the live set in recent times, which is a gem of a song from the Swallow era.
Hey, we can come back to Beethoven
. I voted a 9/10. The live versions of the pre-Arsenal tracks (like November, He Knows, Loop) are excellent. Fatty and Jack are also never heard better than on that album. The band is full of energy, and the guitars are wonderful on it. It was also recorded very well, very brightly. There's only about two tracks I usually pass on, and out of 16 total that's a great percentage.
A
Anonymous moz junky
Guest
I just want to say, as a relatively new Moz fan, this thread made me find a way to listen to this. It's been on replay since. What a cracker of a live record. The entire band on their A game.
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