Kill Uncle and Southpaw Grammar - what ifs...

[Dazza]

Hiya - hope we're good.

I've put these two albums together in the title as they seem to be regarded (in my view not altogether wrongly) as sort of 'career stopping' albums for Moz.

Many of us have great affection for both Your Arsenal (probably his most consistent and complete album IMO) and I struggle to find even a mediocre track on it. Vauxhall is excellent, but I do think there's a slight lull round tracks 7-10. I'm nitpicking, it's a great record it really is.

Kill Uncle came at quite an important time in Morrissey's career as the immediate post-Smiths fuss around him had quelled slightly and so there was pressure to make a record that would keep him in the public consciousness as well as making a creative impact. I've 'no issue' with a lot of the individual songs on here but as an album experience it just doesn't 'grab' on anything like the two records that followed it and sounds more like something a man of Morrissey's stature and profile could have 'got away with' a bit later on. I genuinely don't think the production helps and that Langer/Winstanley were a 'bad fit' for Moz from that point of view.

That said, keep some of the 1990-91 era singles back for this record and you suddenly have quite a different proposition. Relegate a couple of the weaker tracks to B-sides and stick November/Palare on there, you get what I'm getting at.

Sing Your Life is a lovely, chilled out tune and End of the Family Line has that gorgeous piano hook. Much of the rest is pretty ordinary, by no means bad but merely average - and a little bit plodding when stuck together as an album experience.

Now Southpaw almost seems to be an over-compensation for Kill Uncle. It comes at a time when Moz has re-claimed his place as a major player following two albums that were critically acclaimed and commercially successful (Arsenal saw him crack America while Vauxhall, an altogether more British album, went to #1 over here and spawned the brilliant Introducing Morrissey live film).

We had 'Boxers' in the interim which could have improved Southpaw no end.

Now Southpaw has its fans here and I get why. It has some great moments and I do love the way it 'rocks out' in places although ultimately there are a couple of clunkers in there and even Southpaw (a track I love conceptually) goes on too long - as does the opener. Perhaps wind those both in by a couple of minutes, add Boxers to the record and you have something altogether stronger.

I get that Morrissey wanted to go in a 'new direction' and get where that direction was heading, personally I think he should have waited another year and got some better songs together with his band. Then Southpaw could have benefited from the best bits of what turned out to be the sessions for Maladjusted.

So...what are people's thoughts on Kill Uncle and Southpaw Grammar?

Could they have been done better? Would Moz have been better hanging onto material in the case of Uncle and waiting for better in the case of Southpaw?

Would the 1997 hiatus have been avoided in different circumstances?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Anonymous]

I think 'Southpaw' is a creative masterpiece and a triumph though it really only works when experienced as a full album, rather than taken on a 'song by song' basis. I think the main problem in terms of sales etc was just that it came at a bad time. Britpop was exploding at the time in the UK, and something more in the indie-Smiths-pop-radio-friendly vein would have seen Morrissey propelled to the top again alongside Oasis, Blur, Pulp etc. Unfortunately it happenned to be the time he decided to put out his most 'difficult' work, so saw him relegated to the fringes.

But I'd rather have a great record than a bland hit record (ie 'You are the Quarry').

 

[uwotm8]

Kill uncle is a mediocre album for me with a few very good songs, like anonymous I love southpaw grammar, the long tracks especially. The boy racer I think is a bit rubbish, boxers for instance as you mentioned is a much better song (love boxers) I'm in a minority who doesn't love your arsenal and vauxhall though, would take southpaw and years or refusal over those two (or maybe southpaw and viva hate to choose a more rocky and more mellow album)

 

[Gregor Samsa]

Boxers wouldn’t make any sense on an album like SG. It has a lot more to do with Vauxhall.

 

[Eldritch]

Kill Uncle is a strange one. Lasting barely 30 minutes it sounds like they had trouble filling a whole album, but history shows that there's lots of material that didn't end up on the album for some strange reason. Let's also remember that it was originally supposed to be released in 1989, but Morrissey's depression and the poor reception of Ouija Board killed that plan. So people had been waiting for the follow-up to Viva Hate for three yeras and in the light of expectations it was definitely underwhelming.

As for Southpaw, it was a brave and applaudable move for Morrissey to do an album like that. However, he just didn't have the songs. The epic opener and closer are good, but The Operation, Dagenham Dave, Best Friend on the Payroll and Do Your Best and Don't Worry are just woefully weak -- and that's half of the album. Dagenham Dave was also a terrible lead single. Leaving Nobody Loves Us was a bizarre move also, since it's just about the best song of the whole era, but other than that, Boy Racer has live tracks on the b-side, so they just didn't have enough songs. After the success of Vauxhall and a new record contract they really should have waited until 1996 and written more songs.

 

[bhops]

Hiya - hope we're good.

I've put these two albums together in the title as they seem to be regarded (in my view not altogether wrongly) as sort of 'career stopping' albums for Moz.

Many of us have great affection for both Your Arsenal (probably his most consistent and complete album IMO) and I struggle to find even a mediocre track on it. Vauxhall is excellent, but I do think there's a slight lull round tracks 7-10. I'm nitpicking, it's a great record it really is.

Kill Uncle came at quite an important time in Morrissey's career as the immediate post-Smiths fuss around him had quelled slightly and so there was pressure to make a record that would keep him in the public consciousness as well as making a creative impact. I've 'no issue' with a lot of the individual songs on here but as an album experience it just doesn't 'grab' on anything like the two records that followed it and sounds more like something a man of Morrissey's stature and profile could have 'got away with' a bit later on. I genuinely don't think the production helps and that Langer/Winstanley were a 'bad fit' for Moz from that point of view.

That said, keep some of the 1990-91 era singles back for this record and you suddenly have quite a different proposition. Relegate a couple of the weaker tracks to B-sides and stick November/Palare on there, you get what I'm getting at.

Sing Your Life is a lovely, chilled out tune and End of the Family Line has that gorgeous piano hook. Much of the rest is pretty ordinary, by no means bad but merely average - and a little bit plodding when stuck together as an album experience.

Now Southpaw almost seems to be an over-compensation for Kill Uncle. It comes at a time when Moz has re-claimed his place as a major player following two albums that were critically acclaimed and commercially successful (Arsenal saw him crack America while Vauxhall, an altogether more British album, went to #1 over here and spawned the brilliant Introducing Morrissey live film).

We had 'Boxers' in the interim which could have improved Southpaw no end.

Now Southpaw has its fans here and I get why. It has some great moments and I do love the way it 'rocks out' in places although ultimately there are a couple of clunkers in there and even Southpaw (a track I love conceptually) goes on too long - as does the opener. Perhaps wind those both in by a couple of minutes, add Boxers to the record and you have something altogether stronger.

I get that Morrissey wanted to go in a 'new direction' and get where that direction was heading, personally I think he should have waited another year and got some better songs together with his band. Then Southpaw could have benefited from the best bits of what turned out to be the sessions for Maladjusted.

So...what are people's thoughts on Kill Uncle and Southpaw Grammar?

Could they have been done better? Would Moz have been better hanging onto material in the case of Uncle and waiting for better in the case of Southpaw?

Would the 1997 hiatus have been avoided in different circumstances?

Thanks in advance.

You've pretty much summed up 100% how I feel about both records. I got to see Moz play on the Outsiders tour in '95 and at Battersea Power Station in '97 and can say that Southpaw is a much better album to hear live. I wish he'd play more songs from that album.

 

[bhops]

Kill Uncle is a strange one. Lasting barely 30 minutes it sounds like they had trouble filling a whole album, but history shows that there's lots of material that didn't end up on the album for some strange reason. Let's also remember that it was originally supposed to be released in 1989, but Morrissey's depression and the poor reception of Ouija Board killed that plan. So people had been waiting for the follow-up to Viva Hate for three yeras and in the light of expectations it was definitely underwhelming.

As for Southpaw, it was a brave and applaudable move for Morrissey to do an album like that. However, he just didn't have the songs. The epic opener and closer are good, but The Operation, Dagenham Dave, Best Friend on the Payroll and Do Your Best and Don't Worry are just woefully weak -- and that's half of the album. Dagenham Dave was also a terrible lead single. Leaving Nobody Loves Us was a bizarre move also, since it's just about the best song of the whole era, but other than that, Boy Racer has live tracks on the b-side, so they just didn't have enough songs. After the success of Vauxhall and a new record contract they really should have waited until 1996 and written more songs.

With Southpaw, I always felt he went into the studio looking for something to do while getting over Jake.

 

[Eldritch]

With Southpaw, I always felt he went into the studio looking for something to do while getting over Jake.

Simon Goddard also points out in Mozipedia that Southpaw Grammar contains lengthwise more instrumental passages than parts in which Moz is singing. Considering that he is a singer known and loved for his lyrics, this is extraordinary.

 

[Jamie]

As for Southpaw, it was a brave and applaudable move for Morrissey to do an album like that. However, he just didn't have the songs. The epic opener and closer are good, but The Operation, Dagenham Dave, Best Friend on the Payroll and Do Your Best and Don't Worry are just woefully weak -- and that's half of the album. Dagenham Dave was also a terrible lead single. Leaving Nobody Loves Us was a bizarre move also, since it's just about the best song of the whole era, but other than that, Boy Racer has live tracks on the b-side, so they just didn't have enough songs. After the success of Vauxhall and a new record contract they really should have waited until 1996 and written more songs.

There could have been more songs, but Morrissey elected to move on from "Honey You Know Where To Find Me" and "You Should Have Been Nice To Me" between the initial session at Miraval in late 1994 and when the Lads reconvened after the In Person tour. The song "Laughing Anne" was also not taken beyond Alain's demo either.

I think it's important to remember that Southpaw, as recorded/demoed/whatever permutation in between in Miraval, was an album much closer in spirit to Vauxhall And I. The early version of "Dagenham Dave" is perhaps the closest thing to the ultimately released version. There are barely any electric guitars to be found on the Miraval versions of the songs. Which is interesting because the "Boxers" single and "Sunny" were in the can by fall 1994. "Have-A-Go Merchant" and "Whatever Happens I Love You" feel heavily Southpaw-adjacent in sound, themes and Morrissey's more nasal, restrained vocal sound of the time.

The real catalysts were the return of Spencer Cobrin, which re-energized the live band, and the road-readiness of the Lads coming off the In Person tour. They were "hot" at the time and they consequently played a lot looser and louder. In some respects, Southpaw reminds me R.E.M.'s New Adventures In Hi-Fi album from 1996, which featured a number of songs built on recordings made during soundchecks on their Monster tour.

I know in the first "wilderness years" and later Morrissey first started the "we is Morrissey" trope, i.e., the band around him as a whole is part of Morrissey. But, in my opinion, the only two albums where that ever felt concretely accurate was Your Arsenal and Southpaw Grammar. It doesn't seem coincidental that both were preceded/informed by big tours. I would speculate much of the lassitude of the weaker Maladjusted material is down more to Morrissey's attention being divided by the court case as he was writing the lyrics. It didn't help that he expected a hat trick from Lillywhite after it was determined Joe Strummer would not be a match as a producer. A different set of ears may have made a real impact on how much better the songs could have fared.