James Maker Statement: Is Morrissey a racist?

Discussion in 'General Discussion archive 2018 (read-only)' started by Famous when dead, Apr 26, 2018.

By Famous when dead on Apr 26, 2018 at 4:15 PM
  1. Famous when dead

    Famous when dead Vulgarian Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2000
    Messages:
    5,266
    Location:
    Birmingham, U.K.

    Statement:

    Is Morrissey a racist?

    The answer is an emphatic 'no'. In the forty years that I have known Morrissey, I have never once heard a racist epithet pass his lips. The terms 'racist', 'fascist', and 'Islamophobe' are so freely used nowadays against those whose opinions and worldview differs from our own, that they have lost their power and meaning.
    Also, there is a worrying trend on the Left that, ironically, echoes fascism in its intolerance of reasoned debate. One is not only 'wrong' in expressing a different opinion, but one is also now 'evil'. I believe that calling Morrissey a racist is unjustifiable and wrong.
    However, if you want to run out of the house wearing a garment ill-suited to the elements in order to throw Viva Hate into the Manchester Ship Canal, then that is, of course, your right.

    In supporting Brexit, this does not make Morrissey an immigrant-hating 'Little Englander' who lives only to reverse the metric system and bring back steam trains. The truth is, there are myriad reasons why people voted to leave the EU. One of them is a mistrust of Brussels technocracy where unelected representatives make decisions that are arguably a matter for sovereignty.
    Patriotism and Nationalism are very distinct: the former is characterised by an affection for one's country; the second is a more extreme and unforgiving form of allegiance to one's homeland. Morrissey might be guilty of patriotism, but not of nationalism.

    Opposing Sharia Law in the UK, or FGM, or institutionalised misogyny—which is (trigger warning) widespread in the developing world—is an appropriate Western response borne of democracy and the development of civil liberties. It is neither racist nor Islamophobic.
    After all, if I were to move to the United Arab Emirates in search of a better life, I wouldn't reasonably expect to be able to build a hot dog stand empire, serving pork products whilst dressed in a gender-neutral miniskirt.

    To oppose halal slaughter is to oppose slaughter with additional cruelty. The zakat tax payable for Halal certification is used by Islamic organisations to fund mosques and religious schools. Such is the many-tentacled nature of zakat, it is difficult to determine whether it is also being used to crowdfund Islamist extremism. There is a growing concern in some quarters that it might be.

    Hitler was indeed 'Left-wing' in the sense of incorporating the word 'socialist' into the party's name to cynically draw voters away from communism and towards populist nationalism dressed as socialism. Hence, 'Hitler was Left-wing.' Morrissey was not suggesting that Hitler and Yvette Cooper (for example) share the same political ideals. The fact is, Left-wing totalitarianism looks little different to Right-wing authoritarianism — if you're being oppressed, it's the same experience.

    Again, is Morrissey a racist?
    My answer is an emphatic 'no'.

    James Maker.
    26.04.18

    Regards,
    FWD.
     
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    1. Charlie Cheswick
      Charlie Cheswick
      Derek, just do a quick google as to what Socialism actually is rather than talking bollocks. Lest you end up in the same intellectual tank as Vegan.Cro. Thanks.
    2. Derek17
      Derek17
      What would a "quick Google search" tell me, Charlie? Would I see an article from the New York Times celebrating Karl Marx? I'll pass, thanks, and I'll continue using my own brain so long as I remain able.

      Can you address any of the points I raised? Let's try this:

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, believes in big government and the domination of individuals by said government. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, believes in the necessity of radical wealth redistribution. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, is dominated by an obsession with identity politics. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, is based on equity rather than equality. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, scapegoats particular groups of people for the ills of society. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, asserts that particular groups of people are inherently flawed and/or malevolent and that these "flaws" and "malevolence" need to be eradicated from society. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, opposes capitalism. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Terms such as "Jewish privilege," "white privilege," or "Asian privilege" are reprehensible. Agree or Disagree? Explain.
      • Like Like x 1
    3. Derek17
      Derek17
      Thank you. Good job.

      So you should have found also that this socialism is the basis of Nazism. Gregor Strasser hated capitalism. So did Hitler. Nazism is indeed a distinct form of socialism but it is socialism nonetheless, and I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise with any credibility.

      As well, I suggest that people look in to who controlled Hitler. He was far from autonomous, and this reality provides perhaps the most important insights.
      Last edited: May 9, 2018
    4. Charlie Cheswick
      Charlie Cheswick
      Wrong on all counts Derek. Go read a book or two for fuck's sake instead of celebrating your own stupidity. I don't see why it's up to me to point out quite how fuckwitted all of that was.
      • Like Like x 1
    5. Derek17
      Derek17
      If you can't explain why I'm wrong, how can I understand the "correct" way of thinking? It seems to me that you're in denial. You see the disturbing parallels between Hitler's socialism and modern socialism.

      Hitler hated capitalism. He hated democracy and individual autonomy. How can you possibly argue that he was right-wing? Please explain.
    6. Charlie Cheswick
      Charlie Cheswick
      I can explain, you have no idea what you're talking about Derek, at all. I'm a busy man but you ask me to counter the load of shit that you just trotted out. Your trouble with the modern left is that you don't seem to be fond of being called out when you spout shit. If you want to compare being called out on your shit to Hitler that's your lookout.

      Here's something for you to chew on. Now read that, and stop being a fuckwit.

      The Basic Principles of Marxism – Critique Sociale

      Marxism is a way of thinking critically, but it is not a “system”: “I have never established a ‘socialist system’”, Karl Marx wrote in his “Notes on Adolph Wagner's Lehrbuch der politischen Ökonomie” (1880). Marxism is analysis of the development of the world as it is, a method that must forge an intimate connection between practice and theory.

      Here are the basic principles of Marxism:

      • Opposition to an economic system based on inequality and on the alienation and exploitation of the majority (by means of the system of wage labor), a system whose purpose is to obtain profits for some people rather than satisfying the needs of all. This describes capitalism, but one can obviously imagine other systems that would present similar essential characteristics, to which Marxists would be equally opposed.

      For the transformation of society, Marxism considers that a revolutionary process that will lead to a society based on cooperation and the free distribution of goods and provision of services is necessary.

      • “The emancipation of the workers must be the task of the workers themselves.” This is principle is inherent to real Marxism, which implies democracy and self-emancipation; it also means that democracy is the indispensable foundation for a new society (called socialism or communism). This society, liberated from the diverse forms of domination, will have to be freely constructed by its members.

      • Internationalism, which is simultaneously the recognition of the common interests of the workers of the entire world and of the need to struggle on a world scale, and of the goal of abolishing nations in the transition to a human world community.

      • The knowledge and analysis of History (the materialist conception of history).

      • The recognition of the existence of social classes that divide men and women into distinct segments of the population; the recognition of the profound inequalities and injustices that separate these classes; and the recognition that as long as society is divided into classes, there will be conflicts between these classes (the class struggle).

      As a result, while they participate in the day-to-day class struggle of the workers, Marxists work on behalf of a reorganization of society that will put an end to this class division.

      • The free exercise of the critical spirit. “Doubt everything”, Marx said; for the goal is to perceive reality as it is, in order to understand it better and thus to transform it.

      These principles, or some of them, could very well be embraced by other political and social tendencies: if this is the case, then so much the better! Marxism does not attempt to isolate itself, quite the contrary: the goal is to contribute to the constitution of a movement of all of society for the creation of “an association, in which the free development of each is the condition for the free development of all” (Karl Marx, The Communist Manifesto).

      Critique Sociale
      March 12, 2009
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    7. Cornflakes
      Cornflakes
      Really wasn't expecting you to be an expert on the Third Reich, Vegan.
    8. Derek17
      Derek17
      If you're going to make claims, you should be able to argue them on your own. Copying and pasting some generic information about Marx to explain to me the intricacies of socialism and why Hitler's brand of socialism is NOT comparable to modern socialism falls pitifully short. Everyone's busy. Stop making excuses and come up with the goods if you have them, or call it quits.

      You've just proved my point, Charlie. You can't address anything specific that I've said. You should be able to refute my claims point by point, but you can't. That, to me, and I think to most people reading this as well, is telling.
    9. Anonymous
      Anonymous
      Im still trying to figure out what someone having the property of 'being stabby' means:crazy:
      • Interesting Interesting x 1
    10. Charlie Cheswick
      Charlie Cheswick
      Most people reading this are probably thinking your aint all there Derek. Nor I, but I know that.

      Firstly a disclaimer, I know you alt righters like to stereotype but not everyone on the left thinks the same things so I'll speak for myself.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, believes in big government and the domination of individuals by said government. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Disagree, an utterly stupid comment to suggest that I believe in being dominated by my government. In fact, I don't remember ever voting for a winning government let alone wanting to be dominated by them.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, believes in the necessity of radical wealth redistribution. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Disagree, Hitler was into taking all resources to make the state stronger through military means so he could kill the people responsible for real socialism, as he saw it. Personally I think some wealth distribution is neccessary and to be honest most non-socialists feel the same way. You'd have to be insane to believe that one person working at a company was worth 300 times more than another or that most of the world's wealth is hoarded by a handful of people.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, is dominated by an obsession with identity politics. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Silly alt right buzzword peddled by fuckwits. Hitler was into murdering Jews, Socialists, disabled people, gay people, modern day socialists believe in defending minorities against racists bastards. By identity politics I'm assuming you're really angry about the last point.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, is based on equity rather than equality. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Disagree as this is obviously horseshit. Studies show that societies that have less of a wealth gap have less problems with crime and other societal issues. Go read a fucking book.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, scapegoats particular groups of people for the ills of society. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Disagree, this is you alt righters remember.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, asserts that particular groups of people are inherently flawed and/or malevolent and that these "flaws" and "malevolence" need to be eradicated from society. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      You mean we think racists are flawed and we'd like to eradicate it? Sure. I'll run with that. Except once again, Hitler was a massive racist. Fuckwit.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, opposes capitalism. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Hitler was about getting all of the resources to create a strong state which neither opposes nor promotes capitalism. Personally I think mixed systems are necessary but some on the left are definitely staunchly opposed to capitalism.

      Terms such as "Jewish privilege," "white privilege," or "Asian privilege" are reprehensible. Agree or Disagree? Explain.

      You forgot the Hitler comparison here. Hitler was into the belief of Jewish privilege without doubt. I don't fully run with the term white privilige personally because I find it divisive, institutional racism is certainly real though.

      There you go.
      Last edited: May 9, 2018
    11. URBANUS
      URBANUS


      "
      One, two, one, two, three, four
      Yes I needed some time to get away
      I needed some peace of mind
      Some peace of mind that'll stay
      So I thumbed it, now it's six in L.A.
      Maybe a Greyhound could be my way
      Police and niggers, that's right
      Get outta my way
      Don't need to buy none of your
      Gold chains today
      Now don't need no bracelets
      Clamped in front of my back
      Just need my ticket 'till then
      Won't you cut me some slack
      You're one in a million
      Yeah that's what you are
      You're one in a million babe
      You're a shooting star
      Maybe some day we'll see you
      Before you make us cry
      You know we tried to reach you
      But you were much to high
      Much too high
      Much too high
      Much too high
      Immigrants and fagots
      They make no sense to me
      They come to our country
      And think they'll do as they please
      Like start some mini-Iran
      Or spread some fucking disease
      And they talk so many God damn ways
      It's all Greek to me
      Well some say I'm lazy
      And others say that's just me
      Some say I'm crazy
      I guess I'll always be
      But it's been such a long time
      Since I knew right from wrong
      It's all the means to and end I'm
      I keep it moving along
      Hey, hey, hey, yeah
      You're one in a million
      You're a shooting star
      You're one in a million babe
      You know that you are
      Maybe some day we'll see you
      Before you make us cry
      You know we tried to reach you
      But you were much to high
      Much too high
      Much too high
      Much too high
      Radicals and racists
      Don't point your finger at me
      I'm a small town white boy
      Just tryin' to make ends meet
      Don't need your religion
      Don't watch that much TV
      Just makin' my livin' baby
      Well that's enough for me
      You're one in a million
      Yeah that's what you are
      You're one in a million babe
      You're a shooting star
      Maybe some day we'll see you
      Before you make us cry
      You know we tried to reach you
      But you were much too high
      Much too high yeah, yeah, yeah
      Much too high
      Much too high
      Much too high yeah, yeah, yeah
      Much too high
      Much too high
      Much too high
      Much too high
      Much too high
      Much too high"
      • Like Like x 1
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    12. vegan.cro  spirit #712
      vegan.cro spirit #712
      O NO, Marxism is not a system LOL
      Of course not. I take it Hegel is piecemeal as well.
      Socialist loons were running rampant in Europe prior to Marx. His intent was to create 'scientific' socialism ie Marxism, ie Upsidedown Hegel.
      He took most of his ideas from left wing Hegelians.:squiffy: and that other nut duck Rousseau.

      Now Hegel is 'absolute' lol nonsense, but Marx went one up on him. Nothing is quite as stupid as Marxism.
      The "engine" of history: in the planet Jupiter maybe the engine is located.LOL Nostradamus makes more sense.:crazy:
      • Redundant Redundant x 1
    13. reelfountain
      reelfountain
      Cool badass lyrics.
    14. URBANUS
      URBANUS
      • Interesting Interesting x 1
    15. Bluebirds
      Bluebirds
      What the fuck is going on here? Succinct praise for a shit G n R song from 30 years ago and the peddling of the Hitler was a socialist false narrative continuing unabated.
      I remember when this website was merely full of nutters. Oh for those halcyon days of Andy Rourke's stalker and Brummie Boy
    16. URBANUS
      URBANUS
      Don't blame me Cardiff lad (congrats on your promotion). I was the nutter that used to talk a lot about Hitler and other controversial things and then one day it became popular here at Solo.

      I can't help but agree with you.
    17. Quando quando quando
      Quando quando quando
      Well, as Marx said so himself, I doubt everything, and I’ll start with him. :rolleyes:
    18. vegan.cro  spirit #712
      vegan.cro spirit #712

      Geez , why do left wing loons always have to make histrionic, grand entrances.?:drama:

      This is NOT a movie set.

      There is no such thing as a Rourke stalker. AR is broke has no bread. Do the math.doh:
    19. Derek17
      Derek17
      First, a disclaimer: I'm not alt-right.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, believes in big government and the domination of individuals by said government. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Disagree, an utterly stupid comment to suggest that I believe in being dominated by my government. In fact, I don't remember ever voting for a winning government let alone wanting to be dominated by them.

      It's not about your personal beliefs. Socialism increases governmental control. Conservatism reduces governmental control. Read 1984 and tell me what kind of system they live under.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, believes in the necessity of radical wealth redistribution. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Disagree, Hitler was into taking all resources to make the state stronger through military means so he could kill the people responsible for real socialism, as he saw it. Personally I think some wealth distribution is neccessary and to be honest most non-socialists feel the same way. You'd have to be insane to believe that one person working at a company was worth 300 times more than another or that most of the world's wealth is hoarded by a handful of people.

      You're missing the connection. Men and whites (and Asians, increasingly) are expected, based on modern socialist-neo-Marxist standards, to give up some of their rightfully earned opportunities and wealth in order to satisfy the "oppressed." As well, the "rich," which has become synonymous among socialists with "white men," are invariably blamed for society's ills, much like Hitler blamed the Jews for all of society's ills. Bernie Sanders saying that white people don't know what it's like to be poor is really an early stage of Hitler's claim that Jews hoard the wealth and are vermin that need to be exterminated.

      Don't you appreciate the implications of this type of system? It enforces inequality by necessity because if everyone were truly equal, socialism itself would not function!

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, is dominated by an obsession with identity politics. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Silly alt right buzzword peddled by fuckwits. Hitler was into murdering Jews, Socialists, disabled people, gay people, modern day socialists believe in defending minorities against racists bastards. By identity politics I'm assuming you're really angry about the last point.

      If you believe in equity, you are acquiescing to a discriminatory ideology. There's no way around that. You could argue that it is beneficial discrimination, but it's still discrimination, and it is apparent that equity, even as it can have short-term benefits to marginalized people, has long-term detrimental effects because it is unable to help people to rise in society based on their own empowerment and personal responsibility, and neither does it assert the ideal of equality.

      Identity politics and equity assert that there must ALWAYS be an oppressed and an oppressor. Equality is UNATTAINABLE under a system that idealizes equity. The bottom line is, there is no ultimate justification for taking the wealth and standing of the Jews and giving it, unearned, to the Germans, and neither is there an ultimate justification for taking the wealth of "straight white males" and giving it, unearned, to any group that is deemed to be oppressed. Even worse, equity is totally subjective. Hitler, when applying neo-Marxist reasoning, was at first justified in standing up for the "oppressed," was he not? You can see how easily socialism can spiral out of control. We are seeing it begin to spiral out of control in many societies today.


      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, is based on equity rather than equality. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Disagree as this is obviously horseshit. Studies show that societies that have less of a wealth gap have less problems with crime and other societal issues. Go read a fucking book.

      Do you not know what equity is?

      As I mentioned above, socialism needs inequality to survive. It addresses inequalities by enforcing equity rather than aiming for equality. In other words, it addresses perceived inequalities that one group faces (the oppressed) by enforcing inequalities on the "privileged" group (the oppressor). It really doesn't matter whether the "oppressor" is Jews, whites, or Asians; you have the same discriminatory practices that equity enforces.

      To be clear, EQUALITY CANNOT BE ACHIEVED SO LONG AS EQUITY IS ENFORCED.


      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, scapegoats particular groups of people for the ills of society. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Disagree, this is you alt righters remember.

      What?

      To be clear, you do agree that Hitler scapegoated Jews, yes? Now, there was some truth that Jews dominated in society, but so what? Now whites (and increasingly Asians) are being scapegoated for the same reasons. Jews happen now to be untouchable despite their continued domination in terms of wealth and standing, but that's beside the point. Scapegoating is wrong and you should worry about tending your own lawn and use your personal responsibility to do so. Hitler's socialism and modern socialism, however, prefer to scapegoat people and, as a rule, remove them from their "illegitimate" places in society. Hardcore socialists hate white males just like hardcore Nazis hated Jews. It's the same exact thing in a different outfit.


      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, asserts that particular groups of people are inherently flawed and/or malevolent and that these "flaws" and "malevolence" need to be eradicated from society. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      You mean we think racists are flawed and we'd like to eradicate it? Sure. I'll run with that. Except once again, Hitler was a massive racist. Fuckwit.

      How do you eradicate racism when you promote and accept racism against certain people while condemning it in regard to others? This is what equity does. Rather than eradicating racism, it enforces it endlessly against "the oppressors," just like Hitler's brand of socialism enforced an endless hate of Jews.

      Hitler's socialism, like modern socialism, opposes capitalism. Agree or disagree? Explain.

      Hitler was about getting all of the resources to create a strong state which neither opposes nor promotes capitalism. Personally I think mixed systems are necessary but some on the left are definitely staunchly opposed to capitalism.

      Ultimately, Hitler believed in the government controlling the wealth because the people could not be trusted. This is the root of socialism. No right-winger advocates for this.

      Terms such as "Jewish privilege," "white privilege," or "Asian privilege" are reprehensible. Agree or Disagree? Explain.

      You forgot the Hitler comparison here. Hitler was into the belief of Jewish privilege without doubt. I don't fully run with the term white privilige personally because I find it divisive, institutional racism is certainly real though.

      Exactly my point. Terms like "white privilege" and "Jewish privilege" are vile, racist terms that are based on identity politics. If you don't like the term identity politics, fine, let's call it identitarianism. Hitler was obsessed with identity just like socialist neo-Marxists are today. There are members of BLM who claim that whites are inferior and defective due to their lack of melanin. Such people want to eradicate whites, whom they believe to be inferior.

      ALL of this divisive garbage is rooted in identitarianism. Identitarianism can, of course, infiltrate on both the left and right, and identity extends beyond politics, but there is only one type of identitarianism that is accepted by many people and by mainstream society as a whole today. Can you guess what kind of identitariansim that is? It's the socialist-neo-Marxist intersectional identitarianism that is propagated by neo-Marxists everywhere. from openly socialist politicians to gender studies "professors." Just because it is accepted doesn't make it OK; it's all horrid, disgusting stuff.
      • Interesting Interesting x 1
    20. Bluebirds
      Bluebirds
      Andy ison was the username the person used. It was a long long time ago when you were but a tadpole in the milkman's bollocks

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