It’s not about politics

[Aubrey McFate]

as ben shapiro said: if the israelis laid down their weapons tomorrow, there would be another holocaust; if the palestinians laid down their weapons tomorrow, there would be a palestinian state.

He’s right on the first point, but I see nothing to support the second. Presumably the Palestinians shouldn’t expect the West Bank as part of their state—Israel has been brusquely putting up settlements there and expanding them for years now: an ongoing project of land grab. Why do Palestinians get criticized for chanting “from the river to the sea” when it seems like that’s the very same thing Israel wants for itself? For the Palestinians it’s a pathetic pipe dream, but Israel has the actual muscle to make it happen (and so it does). Can Ben Shapiro give us a certified map of where the settlements are going to end?

At this point, what are the Palestinians supposed to settle for: a continually reducing West Bank and a 25-mile strip of land consisting of refugee camps and a city of rubble? The reason they are never going to put down their arms is because Israel has never behaved like an honest broker.

 

[gashonthenail]

He’s right on the first point, but I see nothing to support the second. Presumably the Palestinians shouldn’t expect the West Bank as part of their state—Israel has been brusquely putting up settlements there and expanding them for years now, and that can’t be for anything than an ongoing project of land grab. Why do Palestinians get criticized for chanting “from the river to the sea” when it seems like that’s the very same thing Israel wants for itself? For the Palestinians it’s a pathetic pipe dream, but Israel has the actual muscle to make it happen (and so it does). Can Ben Shapiro give us a certified map of where the settlements are going to end?

At this point, what are the Palestinians supposed to settle for: a continually reducing West Bank and a 25-mile strip of land consisting of refugee camps and a city of rubble? The reason they are never going to put down their arms is because Israel has never behaved like an honest broker.

It does feel incredibly intractable. There are basically 3 options:

1. The current situation but with Israel basically continuing to expand and expelling Arabs from Gaza and the West Bank into surrounding territories.
2. Some form of 'Free' Palestine. A new multi-ethnic state combining what was formerly Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.
3. Some form of 2-state solution.

Many think that Netanyahu and his cabinet are committed to the first option. It does look that way.
The second option is never going to be accepted by Israelis. Why would any sane person want to agree to that option?
And the third option is probably never going to be agreed to by the Palestinians. They have been offered it on several occasions and have turned it down. It is certainly never going to be agreed to by Hamas.

Events since 7th October have also made the third option seem more and more impossible for both sides. Maybe that was/is the intention?

 

[nicky wire's legs]

It is complicated which is why it's good that gaza will soon be eradicated. Then all the questions of right and wrong will be in the past, which is the best place for them!

 

[goinghome]

Interesting that you mention Madagascar, weren’t the Nazis planning on sending them there to build a colony?
Then they all sat and had dinner and decided they couldn’t be bothered and it would be more cost effective to just murder them all.

I think that island now has a population of about 30 million, it’s a little tricky plonking 7 million people into another country, especially if they have as you put it ‘been bad neighbours’.
I don’t think they will ever abandon Israel, even if they were offered the same amount of land somewhere else full of natural resources to exploit and without the constant fear of rockets or invasion.
The connection they have with the land, their history and the holy sites is something that is hard for people like us to understand.

So yes, maybe in an ideal world one side could just pack up and leave but in reality both groups will claim this land for a very long time and there will be no solution. The only hope is that future generations will gradually care a little bit less about their religion and how much their ancestors hated each other, and try to get on a little better.

Also, it's been going through famines and drought and flooding due to sea level rise leading to submersion and loss of property, so it could be tight.

Not that they're alone. Making the mistake of watching the news today revealed that global daily average temperature is now 2C above the pre-industrial norm for the first time

​

 

[goinghome]

Call me a cynic but I’m thinking in terms of hundreds of years time rather than the next generation. That’s as good of a ‘solution’ as we’re likely to get here.
So where do they go now then if there is to be an exodus of Jews from Israel, Siberia? Antartica? Inside the hollow earth?

They have been pushing the Palestinians inside the hollow earth.
https://countercurrents.org/2023/11/israel-is-shutting-down-its-human-laboratory-in-gaza/

Gash's second option of a multi-ethnic country in Israel opening Gaza and West Bank borders and giving equal rights to all is not insane for those who believe in tolerance and justice, and is what many Jews and Arabs would welcome. Wasn't this the arrangement in the 19th century? The 2-state alternative is in a way what has been existing for decades, seguing into apartheid, and now genocide. Coming back from this, not just for Israel and Palestinians but for the world, in terns of what the international community now permits without intervention, will take some doing, if it can be done at all.

Something similar wad done in Iraq, without apology or compensation, and probably at least partly with similar spoils in mind, the kind causing those temperature rises imperilling earth.

It isn't enough. They want more.

 

[goinghome]

i think it should be expected that they wouldnt fight at all. common sense should tell a person that if you dont have an army, dont commit terrorism against a country with one of the best militaries in the world. that's being, at the very least, incredibly irresponsible towards the citizens of your land. but of course hamas had a strategy: hide among the civillians, so that in order to get to you israel will half to kill a bunch of civillians and look really really bad in the eyes of the world. perfect.

the problem is not israel. israel doesnt want a war with the palestinians, and the framing of this as being a war is absurd. israel has to defend themselves and keep their citizens safe, because unlike hamas, israel cares about it's citizens and because hamas seems to have a genocidal intent. as ben shapiro said: if the israelis laid down their weapons tomorrow, there would be another holocaust; if the palestinians laid down their weapons tomorrow, there would be a palestinian state. it's possible that if the palestinians just f***ing behaved themselves and proved themselves trustworthy their lives would improve massively. but again, as ben shapiro said, they prefer a chant to a palestinian state.

The Israeli government just downgraded the number of those killed in October 7 attack to 1200 from 1400. Haaretz Newspaper was able to name less than 980 (some yet to be identified). George Galloway wrote: “The foul allegations of rape have been dropped by the Israeli government. The forty beheaded babies has been downscaled to one dead baby, not beheaded, and killed by persons unknown.” Does the truth of what happened on October 7 matter? Yes it does because it is used to justify an ongoing genocide (of course nothing justifies genocide even exaggerated and fabricated stories). But why do many western leaders and western media parrot Israeli lies and not just about 7 October but for the past 75 years of committing atrocities against a largely defenseless Palestinian population? DOES THE TRUTH MATTER? The links below are a glimpse of the overwhelming body of evidence about Israeli/Zionist lies. You be the judge. In the end I will say why this is important if not CRITICAL to achieve peace.

Does the Truth Matter?

Does the truth of what happened on October 7 matter? Yes it does because it is used to justify an ongoing genocide.

peaceandplanetnews.org

 

[gashonthenail]

Gash's second option of a multi-ethnic country in Israel opening Gaza and West Bank borders and giving equal rights to all is not insane for those who believe in tolerance and justice, and is what many Jews and Arabs would welcome. Wasn't this the arrangement in the 19th century? The 2-state alternative is in a way what has been existing for decades, seguing into apartheid, and now genocide. Coming back from this, not just for Israel and Palestinians but for the world, in terns of what the international community now permits without intervention, will take some doing, if it can be done at all.

Would you want to live in a 'Free Palestine', goinghome? I wouldn't.
Please point out a Muslim majority state in the Middle East that is a democracy 'giving equal rights to all'. Turkey and Indonesia are the only countries that maybe come close, Turkey as much a part of Europe as the Middle East, and Indonesia is in Asia. Lebanon comes close, but is 54% Christian.
If I was an Israeli I wouldn't want to live in a 'Free Palestine'. The risk that it would descend into ethnic tension and bloodshed would be huge. There is the risk that it would get invaded and swallowed up by one or more of its neighbours - very common in the Middle East. And there would also be the risk that it wouldn't respect human rights and minorities. Again, show me the state in the Middle East that does do that. Oh wait, that's Israel isn't it?
Some form of 2-state solution is the only viable way forward. The Arabs should have accepted something along the lines of the Peel Commission in 1937. They rejected it out of hand. There is peace in Ireland since the Good Friday Agreement. How did that come about? Because the IRA accepted the existence of the state of Northern Ireland - something they had previously refused to do.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Maybe a crack on both heads. Have they/could they … ever get on?

 

[Born to Harangue]

Actress fired from Scream 7 over Israel-Gaza posts - BBC News

Melissa Barrera is sacked from the film sequel for posts the production company say were antisemitic.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Born to Harangue]

 

[goinghome]

Would you want to live in a 'Free Palestine', goinghome? I wouldn't.
Please point out a Muslim majority state in the Middle East that is a democracy 'giving equal rights to all'.

Countries calling themselves democracies do not treat people equally.

Jaw-dropping insight into the unapologetic supremacist aims of an iconic popular Israeli leader -
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

Very final solution the only game in town, new Jerusalem, Xanadu, Utopia - defined by exclusion but with God on our side...

 

[gashonthenail]

Countries calling themselves democracies do not treat people equally.

You didn't answer the question, goinghome. In which of the countries of the Middle East would you prefer to live? Syria? Jordan? Saudi Arabia? Egypt? Iraq? Iran?
Especially if you were a woman or a gay man?
Or would you rather live in Israel? I know which one any sane person would choose.
It's an uncomfortable question to answer, I know. But an important one.

 

[Aubrey McFate]

You didn't answer the question, goinghome. In which of the countries of the Middle East would you prefer to live? Syria? Jordan? Saudi Arabia? Egypt? Iraq? Iran?
Especially if you were a woman or a gay man?
Or would you rather live in Israel? I know which one any sane person would choose.
It's an uncomfortable question to answer, I know. But an important one.

I can't speak for goinghome, but by "people" I think he meant more than just a country's own citizens. If you boil it down to enjoying individual liberties, then yes, Israel comes out looking good. But that can't be the whole calculus, because it's always going to be better to be the nightclubber in a wealthy and free country than the impoverished child somewhere else dodging that same country's bullets and bombs. The more salient question is whether Israel treats Palestinians well.

 

[Mozzer1980]

 

[gashonthenail]

I can't speak for goinghome, but by "people" I think he meant more than just a country's own citizens. If you boil it down to enjoying individual liberties, then yes, Israel comes out looking good. But that can't be the whole calculus, because it's always going to be better to be the nightclubber in a wealthy and free country than the impoverished child somewhere else dodging that same country's bullets and bombs. The more salient question is whether Israel treats Palestinians well.

Israeli bullets and bombs, as you put it, aren't a factor across the rest of the Middle East and North Africa. The Arab Spring quickly petered out into a Muslim Winter. It is authoritarian regimes across the region that kill off freedom and human rights, not Israel. I know the USA and the West are not blameless in propping up some of these regimes over the years, but when it comes to where any sane person would want to live in the region, there is no contest.

 

[Aubrey McFate]

Israeli bullets and bombs, as you put it, aren't a factor across the rest of the Middle East and North Africa. The Arab Spring quickly petered out into a Muslim Winter. It is authoritarian regimes across the region that kill off freedom and human rights, not Israel. I know the USA and the West are not blameless in propping up some of these regimes over the years, but when it comes to where any sane person would want to live in the region, there is no contest.

Already conceded: the U.S. and Israel are pretty good when it comes to human rights for their own citizens. The point I think goinghome was making is whether a democratic country like the U.S. is good for other peoples. What good did my country do for the Vietnamese peasant in the 1970s who returned to his decimated village, his raped daughter, and his burned-out farm to find his water buffalo (essentially his livelihood) reduced to a bloody pulp by the American G.I.s who giggled when they used it for target practice? Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. Our "peace through power" thing has not been very good for many of the non-Americans to whom we're constantly trying to show our so-called American goodwill, as Morrissey frequently points out.

It's not going to work out well for Israel either (unless they can somehow just kill all the Palestinians). Otherwise they're only further radicalizing them, as well as their neighbors in the Middle East, who increasingly seem to hate the Israelis even more than they hate their own tyrants.

 

[Aubrey McFate]

Why doesn't Douglas Murray apply his own views of immigration to England in the late 20th and early 21st century to the immigration of Jews to Palestine in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, when the inhabitants of that territory were marching and rioting for less Jewish immigration?

 

[Born to Harangue]

I was very proud of my fellow Irish people last night for these scenes coming out of Dublin and while I had hoped to see more rioting like this over the next few days, I’m afraid that that’ll be it for now. Primarily what I want to see is fear instilled in the hearts of politicians!

They need to be made aware that if they’re not going to obey the will of the people of Ireland then there are repercussions for that and they will be removed from their positions with no chance of ever regaining them. No more being allowed to condescend to the Irish people with the Irish people constantly backing down. If they refuse to get the message, which appears to be the case, then I wouldn’t mind seeing these riots become a permanent fixture all across the country. I’d rather live amongst rubble and burnt out cars, if my own people cause it, than to witness the slow death that the government is subjecting the country to through mass immigration for short-term economic gains. The country will be burning in a few decades anyway when the Irish are effectively replaced as the majority in our own country, so I figure why shouldn’t the Irish burn it themselves now; a taste of what’s to come!



(But for the record, nobody was killed during these protests or anything, so the protests were mostly peaceful )

 

[Barking]

(I haven't read a single comment on this thread.)
I'm just wondering:
Trump. Bolsonaro. Milei.
Logical question: Is Morrissey going to be President soon?

And will he too turn to me for advice then? And finally listen??

(Note: I know I'm uncloneable.)( And now you do, too.)

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

I was very proud of my fellow Irish people last night for these scenes coming out of Dublin and while I had hoped to see more rioting like this over the next few days, I’m afraid that that’ll be it for now. Primarily what I want to see is fear instilled in the hearts of politicians!

Why do you think they stopped?

Anyway, I think these protests from civilians always happen too far from any politician’s doorstep. Usually neighbors hurting other neighbor’s property, sadly.

They need to be made aware that if they’re not going to obey the will of the people of Ireland then there are repercussions for that and they will be removed from their positions with no chance of ever regaining them. No more being allowed to condescend to the Irish people with the Irish people constantly backing down. If they refuse to get the message, which appears to be the case, then I wouldn’t mind seeing these riots become a permanent fixture all across the country. I’d rather live amongst rubble and burnt out cars, if my own people cause it, than to witness the slow death that the government is subjecting the country to through mass immigration for short-term economic gains. The country will be burning in a few decades anyway when the Irish are effectively replaced as the majority in our own country, so I figure why shouldn’t the Irish burn it themselves now; a taste of what’s to come!



(But for the record, nobody was killed during these protests or anything, so the protests were mostly peaceful )