It’s not about politics

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
I hope you realize that the narrative of Putin's regime and yours are basically the same ?
And yes, I still think that both this cartoon and your posts justify Putin's invasion of an independent country.
I also think that both Obama and Biden did not "kill" their political opponents or the journalists who wrote about them critically. But maybe I'm wrong 🤔
The narrative of myself and Putin’s regime is not the same as I strongly condemn what is he doing right now. He has no justification for a full scale invasion of Ukraine and the senseless killing of thousands.

You know it is possible to hold two points of view at the same time. That being that America foreign policy since WW2 has killed millions of innocent people around the world and people like Obama and Biden have blood on their hands. Apparently killing poor people in the Middle East and triggering a refugee crisis is OK but what REALLY makes you a bad guy is killing a journalist.

I’m finding what Vladimir Putin is doing right is repugnant and hoping someone puts a bullet in him.

There are no good guys in this story.

You on the other hand seem to think we must have a bad side and good side. I don’t.

And yes the cartoon is CLEARLY about hypocrisy and not justification. Please tell me what part of the cartoon is factually incorrect?
 
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Layne

Well-Known Member
The only reason to "hate both" is to do nothing in Ukraine & Russia wins because it has a bigger army.

It's Russian propaganda.

And really obvious, bad propaganda.

That hasn't worked.






The reality that corruption and neo-Nazis exist in Ukraine is not predicated on Russian propaganda...

Ironically, you are lapping up deep state propaganda.

Sticking to the facts is much more useful, and that also means not jumping to conclusions. As such, I acknowledge that significant neo-Nazi groups exist in Ukraine and that that country is corrupt as shit. It is another matter as to whether I am willing to trust Putin when he says he is going after those groups. If he is, good, but I don't have any reason to take his word for it absent sufficient evidence.

Similarly, I am not going to blindly believe everything that the media blame on Russia. Why would I when I know well that there are bad forces on the Ukrainian side, including neo-Nazi paramilitary groups with ties to Western funding?
 

Mozzer1980

Well-Known Member
The narrative of myself and Putin’s regime is not the same as I strongly condemn what is he doing right now. He has no justification for a full scale invasion of Ukraine and the senseless killing of thousands.
Thanks for defining your position in the end .
And as for the cartoon, this is my subjective perception . At the same time, I am not denying its general message. There are two points of view at the same time . Right ?

#fckputin
 
D

Deleted member 29417

Guest
The reality that corruption and neo-Nazis exist in Ukraine is not predicated on Russian propaganda...

Ironically, you are lapping up deep state propaganda.

Sticking to the facts is much more useful, and that also means not jumping to conclusions. As such, I acknowledge that significant neo-Nazi groups exist in Ukraine and that that country is corrupt as shit. It is another matter as to whether I am willing to trust Putin when he says he is going after those groups. If he is, good, but I don't have any reason to take his word for it absent sufficient evidence.

Similarly, I am not going to blindly believe everything that the media blame on Russia. Why would I when I know well that there are bad forces on the Ukrainian side, including neo-Nazi paramilitary groups with ties to Western funding?

Only the most "committed" conspiracy theorists are going for the guff about Ukraine being overrun with Nazis.

Russia funds neo-Nazis & has more Neo-Nazis than the country it's currently trying to destroy.

You can hedge your rhetorical bets but you've taken Putin's side.

Not that it matters.

He might plod on but he's lost it.
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
Thanks for defining your position in the end .
And as for the cartoon, this is my subjective perception . At the same time, I am not denying its general message. There are two points of view at the same time . Right ?

#fckputin
Sure there are but watching those who would identify as Lefties on here defend American Foreign Policy/Military Industrial Complex wars and incursions over the past 50 years was something that I wasn’t expecting to see.
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
Only the most "committed" conspiracy theorists are going for the guff about Ukraine being overrun with Nazis.

Russia funds neo-Nazis & has more Neo-Nazis than the country it's currently trying to destroy.

You can hedge your rhetorical bets but you've taken Putin's side.

Not that it matters.

He might plod on but he's lost it.
Imagine being so clueless you don't think these guys exist:

azov1.jpg


This a good piece from the Jimmy Dore show, though really it is Max Blumenthal that will run you through everything. Aaron Mate and Matt Taibbi have also written some good pieces on them.



This is a good piece on the problematic nature of Azov and the growing far-Right movement in Ukraine from 2020.


Another article from 2018.

 
D

Deleted member 29417

Guest
Imagine being so clueless you don't think these guys exist:

View attachment 79599

This a good piece from the Jimmy Dore show, though really it is Max Blumenthal that will run you through everything. Aaron Mate and Matt Taibbi have also written some good pieces on them.



This is a good piece on the problematic nature of Azov and the growing far-Right movement in Ukraine from 2020.


Another article from 2018.



I know they exist - they don't dominate Ukraine, they're not fighting Russians because of Nazi ideology & they're not a reason to abandon Ukraine to Russia or "both sides" this conflict.

UK neo-Nazis are backing Russia.

20220305_225258.jpg


So is most of the American far right...

“Can we get a round of applause for Russia?” asked Nick Fuentes, on stage last week at a white nationalist event. Amid a roar of applause for the Russian president, just days after he invaded Ukraine, many attendees responded by shouting: “Putin! Putin!”


The 2014 annexation of the Crimean Peninsula by Russian forces turned the region into a playground for war tourists, mercenaries, and far-right extremists from around the world. An estimated 15,000 foreign fighters flocked to that conflict between 2014 and 2019, 3,000 of them siding with Ukraine, versus around 12,000 who sided with the Russian-backed separatists, according to a report by the Soufan Center...

The Russia-Ukraine split among accelerationist types isn’t new, according to Kriner.
“We saw this schism in Atomwaffen,” Kriner said, referencing the hardcore neo-Nazi group. “Some in Atomwaffen were pro-Azov but critical of Russia. Others were like, no, we need to do what Dugin said, Russia is the future of Aryan imperialism.”


 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
I know they exist - they don't dominate Ukraine, they're not fighting Russians because of Nazi ideology & they're not a reason to abandon Ukraine to Russia or "both sides" this conflict.

UK neo-Nazis are backing Russia.

View attachment 79606

So is most of the American far right...

“Can we get a round of applause for Russia?” asked Nick Fuentes, on stage last week at a white nationalist event. Amid a roar of applause for the Russian president, just days after he invaded Ukraine, many attendees responded by shouting: “Putin! Putin!”


The 2014 annexation of the Crimean Peninsula by Russian forces turned the region into a playground for war tourists, mercenaries, and far-right extremists from around the world. An estimated 15,000 foreign fighters flocked to that conflict between 2014 and 2019, 3,000 of them siding with Ukraine, versus around 12,000 who sided with the Russian-backed separatists, according to a report by the Soufan Center...

The Russia-Ukraine split among accelerationist types isn’t new, according to Kriner.
“We saw this schism in Atomwaffen,” Kriner said, referencing the hardcore neo-Nazi group. “Some in Atomwaffen were pro-Azov but critical of Russia. Others were like, no, we need to do what Dugin said, Russia is the future of Aryan imperialism.”


If you'd care to watch the video you'd know that they have infiltrated parts of the Ukrainian govt. I agree that this isn't a reason to cheer what Putin is doing, there is nothing that can justify how far he has gone. I do 'both sides' this conflict in a much as war in Eastern Ukraine has been going for 8 years not two weeks and over 13,000 people have already lost their lives. This should count too. Zelensky ran his campaign on bringing peace to that region and once in office abandoned trying to do so and let the bombings and murders continue.
 
D

Deleted member 29417

Guest
If you'd care to watch the video you'd know that they have infiltrated parts of the Ukrainian govt. I agree that this isn't a reason to cheer what Putin is doing, there is nothing that can justify how far he has gone. I do 'both sides' this conflict in a much as war in Eastern Ukraine has been going for 8 years not two weeks and over 13,000 people have already lost their lives. This should count too. Zelensky ran his campaign on bringing peace to that region and once in office abandoned trying to do so and let the bombings and murders continue.

They haven't infiltrated the Ukrainian government - that's bollocks put out by Putin.

Operating in Ukraine are several nationalist paramilitary groups, such as the Azov movement and Right Sector, that espouse neo-Nazi ideology. While high-profile, they appear to have little public support. Only one far-right party, Svoboda, is represented in Ukraine’s parliament, and it only holds one seat.
Now Putin is trying to paint Zelensky’s government as “Nazis supported by NATO,” McFaul said.
According to Putin, he must fight to save the Russian-speaking community in eastern Ukraine.
In his speech announcing the start of the operation, he said that the “goal is to protect the people who are subjected to abuse, genocide from the Kyiv regime.”

“To this end, we will seek to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine and put to justice those that committed numerous bloody crimes against peaceful people, including Russian nationals,” Putin said, according to Russia’s state news agency.

His language is also a red flag that he intends to overthrow the government in Kyiv, said Sergey Radchenko, a professor of international relations at Johns Hopkins University.
The Kremlin has long tried to “present the whole idea of Ukrainian nationalism as a neo-Nazi movement,” he said, adding that the narrative is historically false.

 

Layne

Well-Known Member
Only the most "committed" conspiracy theorists are going for the guff about Ukraine being overrun with Nazis.

Russia funds neo-Nazis & has more Neo-Nazis than the country it's currently trying to destroy.

You can hedge your rhetorical bets but you've taken Putin's side.

Not that it matters.

He might plod on but he's lost it.
Your only argument is to insist that I have taken a side in the conflict when I have not. I have clearly stated that I endorse neither side. You can only assert that I have in order to draw a false equivalency between me and you as you have taken a side. Indeed, you have taken a side because you were told to and you are a follower.

I will even tell you why I will never endorse Putin: because he does not believe in liberal values.

Now, if, like Stalin, Putin is helping to defeat nazzies and corrupt people who want equally as bad or worse things than he does, then good for him. Unlike you, I do not stand with the Nazis. You have to because you have taken a side. Furthermore, keep in mind that you are getting rather close to using the neo-Nazi side of things as a strawman. I do think the much bigger issue in Ukraine is corruption involving Western connections, including American politicians (the Bidens, the Pelosis, the Romneys, etc.) and other rich and powerful influencers.

You may be fine with being used as a vehicle to help promote certain narratives that allow truly evil people to cover their own asses, but I will not play that game.
 

Layne

Well-Known Member
If you'd care to watch the video you'd know that they have infiltrated parts of the Ukrainian govt. I agree that this isn't a reason to cheer what Putin is doing, there is nothing that can justify how far he has gone. I do 'both sides' this conflict in a much as war in Eastern Ukraine has been going for 8 years not two weeks and over 13,000 people have already lost their lives. This should count too. Zelensky ran his campaign on bringing peace to that region and once in office abandoned trying to do so and let the bombings and murders continue.
Putin does not think like Westerners. He does not believe in a liberal foundation because that is not part of Russian history or philosophy in the same way as it is for us. Clearly, he has taken a "the ends justify the means" approach here, and I could never endorse that because I firmly believe that the means must always justify the ends.

However, it is possible that he has his reasons for doing what he is doing that are currently beyond public knowledge. The best reasons we can get from the fake news are that he has gone insane or he randomly wants to take over a desperately poor country that is one of the most corrupt on Earth, neither of which seem to be compelling.

I would speculate that the corruption in Ukraine is worse than we comprehend. Would this justify Putin's means for me? No, but I do think he may very well prove to be the lesser of two evils when we have the full picture.
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
Putin does not think like Westerners. He does not believe in a liberal foundation because that is not part of Russian history or philosophy in the same way as it is for us. Clearly, he has taken a "the ends justify the means" approach here, and I could never endorse that because I firmly believe that the means must always justify the ends.

However, it is possible that he has his reasons for doing what he is doing that are currently beyond public knowledge. The best reasons we can get from the fake news are that he has gone insane or he randomly wants to take over a desperately poor country that is one of the most corrupt on Earth, neither of which seem to be compelling.

I would speculate that the corruption in Ukraine is worse than we comprehend. Would this justify Putin's means for me? No, but I do think he may very well prove to be the lesser of two evils when we have the full picture.
Like you I think Putin is far from crazy, quite the opposite in fact, cold and calculating. I thought if he'd gone into just Eastern Ukraine no-one would've really done/said anything. Even Biden gave him a nod and a wink a few weeks ago when he all but said he'd overlook a 'minor incursion.'

Why he has gone as far as he has I don't know. Maybe he's maybe looking to make a move that tidies up everything in on go, Ukraine start adhering to the Minsk accord, annex eastern Ukrainian for good and get the Azov's out of that area permanently. I like your point about the ends justifying the means and agree. These are people's lives he's callously playing with.
 

Born to Harangue

Kanye 2024
Are you really this stupid?

All right then Miss Thing, if you're so clever let's put you to the test. Here's the challenge: Words With Friends (scrabble) or chess, best of three. If I lose I delete my account, if you lose you record a voice clip saying "okay Born you won, maybe you weren't as stupid as I thought. I'm going to do some reevaluating. And you're right, Rifke is definitely the Queen, she's more intelligent than me, I'm sorry for my impertinence towards her and I promise to mind my Ps and Qs in future.".

I'm willing to play three different games instead of one if you prefer: Words With Friends first, then chess, and if needed the third game can be of your choosing. I couldn't possibly be more accommodating so what excuse do you have to say no!? You can even add an extra condition to the bet if you want.

Surface, Janice, Baz and Barking all baulked at the challenge, will you baulk too? I would have put money on the line against Carlisle Baz but he didn't have the grapefruits to accept.

For full disclosure here's my Words With Friends results which I haven't played in months:
Screenshot_20220306-023356.jpg


And I only recently began playing chess so maybe you stand a chance of vanquishing me and getting me to delete my account. If I receive no response or an excuse I'll take it as an admission of defeat and I'll put 'beat Vex 2-0 by default' as the custom title under my profile picture.

Eagerly awaiting your reply! 🕒🕒
Waiting Patiently GIF by General Hospital
 
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D

Deleted member 29417

Guest
All right then Miss Thing, if you're so clever let's put you to the test. Here's the challenge: Words With Friends (scrabble) or chess, best to three. If I lose I delete my account, if you lose you record a voice clip saying "okay Born you won, maybe you weren't as stupid as I thought. I'm going to do some reevaluating. And you're right, Rifke is definitely the Queen, she's more intelligent than me, I'm sorry for my impertinence towards her and I promise to mind my Ps and Qs in future.".

I'm willing to play three different games instead of one if you prefer: Words With Friends first, then chess, and if needed the third game can be of your choosing. I couldn't possibly be more accommodating so what excuse do you have to say no!? You can even add an extra condition to the bet if you want.

Surface, Janice, Baz and Barking all baulked at the challenge, will you baulk too? I would have put money on the line against Carlisle Baz but he didn't have the grapefruits to accept.

For full disclosure here's my Words With Friends results which I haven't played in months:
View attachment 79609

And I only recently began playing chess so maybe you stand a chance of vanquishing me and getting me to delete my account. If I receive no response or an excuse I'll take it as an admission of defeat and I'll put 'beat Vex 2-0 by default' as the custom title under my profile picture.

Eagerly awaiting your reply! 🕒🕒
Waiting Patiently GIF by General Hospital

I'm happy to concede defeat, I've got zero interest in online games.
 

Mozzer1980

Well-Known Member
Brave russians citizens vs NAZI Putin's regime
🇺🇦

 
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