It’s not about politics

Charlie Cheswick

Well-Known Member
Tell me Charlie what is your ideal economic system? Would you like to dismantle capitalism completely? If not how would you restructure it? For instance what would your top tax rates be? What socialist elements would you like to see introduced?
I'm not an economist so can't say what would work but it's obvious what doesn't work.

To say how difficult it is to change the tide, our last PM told us how he was gong to tackle tax avoidance while at the same time it was revealed that he gained his family's wealth from his father's tax avoidance schemes. What we're dealing with is corruption on a grand scale across the nations and how do you combat that?

You can tax people more heavily in your own country and give them the choice to stay or fuck off. That's how it used to be and I'm ok with that. My friend is a conservative and I mentioned him in my last post and he was saying we basically need to tax people more. My argument back was that people are taxed enough already, the problem is where we have the idea that a person can earn 300 times more than other people in an organization and then store his riches overseas and avoid paying tax on them.

Tackle that and then we'll talk money shortages and if any other tax rises are needed.

Socialism is just a theory, in reality the system run by the corrupt is taking the piss more than it ever has and political bias allows it. If all of us outside of that 1% realize and demand different that's what will make change. While we argue about poor people and Muslims or some other bullshit the smokescreen will continue. It's all just about divide and rule so a few greedy bastards can take what they can. Just think Robin Hood but in reverse.
 
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bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
I'm not an economist so can't say what would work but it's obvious what doesn't work.

To say how difficult it is to change the tide, our last PM told us how he was gong to tackle tax avoidance while at the same time it was revealed that he gained his family's wealth from his father's tax avoidance schemes. What we're dealing with is corruption on a grand scale across the nations and how do you combat that?

You can tax people more heavily in your own country and give them the choice to stay or fuck off. That's how it used to be and I'm ok with that. My friend is a conservative and I mentioned him in my last post and he was saying we basically need to tax people more. My argument back was that people are taxed enough already, the problem is where we have the idea that a person can earn 300 times more than other people in an organization and then store his riches overseas and avoid paying tax on them.

Tackle that and then we'll talk money shortages and if any other tax rises are needed.

Socialism is just a theory, in reality the system run by the corrupt is taking the piss more than it ever has and political bias allows it. If all of us outside of that 1% realize and demand different that's what will make change. While we argue about poor people and Muslims or some other bullshit the smokescreen will continue. It's all just about divide and rule so a few greedy bastards can take what they can. Just think Robin Hood but in reverse.
Ok cool, I agree racing people more doesn’t work because the super rich just find ways to avoid paying it while the man in the street takes the hit. Here we are on common ground I think.

A follow-up question. Have the lives of the working middle class improved in the last 20 years?
 

Charlie Cheswick

Well-Known Member
Ok cool, I agree racing people more doesn’t work because the super rich just find ways to avoid paying it while the man in the street takes the hit. Here we are on common ground I think.

A follow-up question. Have the lives of the working middle class improved in the last 20 years?
That's an interesting question where you'd probably need to look at earnings compared to house prices and inflation in that time.

Considering how house prices have risen here I'd say we're definitely worse off economically but that's just opinion.
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
That's an interesting question where you'd probably need to look at earnings compared to house prices and inflation in that time.

Considering how house prices have risen here I'd say we're definitely worse off economically but that's just opinion.
So has membership of the EU made life better or worse for Britons? House prices globally seems to be a challenge. Specifically in the UK what do you feel has driven the cost of housing up?
 

Derek17

Well-Known Member
To be fair if everything was reported purely factually you would probably hold extremely different views as it appears clear that you have bought into a distinct narrative. The same would be said for most of us seeing as the majority of what is force fed to us is utter horse shit.
I go out of my way to consider many different points of view. For me, my views have continued to evolve. I'm not sure that's the case for the average person. Of course, generally, people would be affected by a more matter-of-fact brand of news reporting. However, there are problems with our educational system as well. Our society, generally, has dumbed things down in many regards. We can speculate as to why that might be, but that's another topic. My point above in regard to reporting is basically that we shouldn't be insulting people's intelligence, although people also need to learn to use their own minds again and more fully. People rejecting the "programming" and actually thinking about what they are being fed tends to be the exception to the rule. This is a problem.

Overall, though, it is easy enough to separate the basic reporting of the news from editorialization. Right now, CNN and essentially every news network have turned in to discussions of very select news articles that are framed in very deliberate ways and then discussed by guests who are hand-picked deliberately to, hopefully, fulfill a certain narrative. Even the people they have from the "other side" are typically not the best and brightest and are brought on largely to discredit the side that they represent.

It's all so contrived and ridiculous, and, I would argue, insidious.
 

Derek17

Well-Known Member
Obviously I can't speak for Derek but I watch a whole range of news outlets, everything from Fox to CNN, to internet sources such as Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire, Joe Rogan and Dave Rubin have a ton on interesting guests from all political spectrums right through to the Young Turks, alongside my own individual research in order to arrive at my own conclusions. I'm, a conservative, I believe in lower taxes, I believe in property rights, I believe in personal responsibility, I don't believe there is really anything that govt can do better than private enterprise and to that extent I strongly believe in limited govt. I don't swallow everything that comes from the right side of aisle, for instance I have a ton of things that I found unsettling with the last Bush presidency, most notably the Iraq war. I like mostly what Trump has done but not everything. He could've handled Charlottesville better, I'm still not sold on his trillion dollar infrastructure plan.

I'm pretty sure that from a 'factual' basis my views wouldn't change a jot, because as a Conservative I (mostly) find Progressive or Left leaning solutions to social and economic problems to be the worst. The idea of some Marxist/egalitarian dystopia scares me. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for equality of opportunity, but what you do with that opportunity is entirely up to the individual and I feel that better reflects the reality of human nature. I'll end with one last caveat that I also agree with Jordan Peterson that we must ensure for the sake of a healthy functioning society that the gulf in wealth in the middle class doesn't get too large, it's when the middle class starts spiralling into debt and destruction that we have real problems. When I say 'Middle Class' (because I know it has a slightly different meaning in Britain) I'm talking abut people that have a solid job that allows home ownership, the ability to educate their kids and save for retirement, take a decent holiday once a year, that type of thing.

To that end (and here is where I guess I sound a little like a conspiracy theorist) those that currently sit at the very tip of the power structure, the truly elite and wealthy, aren't capitalists so much as they desire a totalitarian outcome where only a very very very select few hold ALL the money and ALL the power. That's a very monopolistic outcome and I think it's something that both conservatives capitalists and liberal socialists would agree upon.

Maybe Derek has something further to add.
Same here as far as news sources. I question what I watch all the time even if it is stuff I tend to agree with. I'm not comfortable relying on a particular person or channel to give me "the truth" or "the news." Every source has something to offer, and of course different people have purer and better intentions and provide better and more insightful content than others, but there are definitely many pieces of the puzzle that you can gain by considering different sources.

I'm more of a big-picture guy. I've stopped really caring about the conspiracy label. I certainly don't discuss certain things in certain circles for my own sake, but I'm more focused on the fundamental aspects of our culture and society. I think we can not only bring back some of the important things that are part of the conservative agenda but that we can be better than ever before.

For example, conservatives tend to be outright in favour of capitalism just because it is not socialism. Now, I am totally in favour of capitalism and the free market. However, I also go beyond the small-time things that allow a person merely to fit in to the capitalist system and not question it. What I mean is, I think about how pointless it is, in many ways, that we agree to be confined to this system in the first place without improving it to ensure that some of the abuses that have occurred cannot continue in the future. It's not really about capitalism though; it's about how governments and certain powerful individuals have abused capitalism to benefit themselves and keep people in line. If we're not on the gold standard, countries can pretty much print as much money as they want. If you put $1,000 in the bank, it just becomes, essentially, less and less valuable over time. It seems ridiculous in that sense. But all of the big-picture things fit in well with conservative policies that are totally against big government and in favour of personal responsibility. I just think that we can do even more and even better in some regards than perhaps the average, more modest conservative might suggest.
 
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Derek17

Well-Known Member
I'm not an economist so can't say what would work but it's obvious what doesn't work.

To say how difficult it is to change the tide, our last PM told us how he was gong to tackle tax avoidance while at the same time it was revealed that he gained his family's wealth from his father's tax avoidance schemes. What we're dealing with is corruption on a grand scale across the nations and how do you combat that?

You can tax people more heavily in your own country and give them the choice to stay or fuck off. That's how it used to be and I'm ok with that. My friend is a conservative and I mentioned him in my last post and he was saying we basically need to tax people more. My argument back was that people are taxed enough already, the problem is where we have the idea that a person can earn 300 times more than other people in an organization and then store his riches overseas and avoid paying tax on them.

Tackle that and then we'll talk money shortages and if any other tax rises are needed.

Socialism is just a theory, in reality the system run by the corrupt is taking the piss more than it ever has and political bias allows it. If all of us outside of that 1% realize and demand different that's what will make change. While we argue about poor people and Muslims or some other bullshit the smokescreen will continue. It's all just about divide and rule so a few greedy bastards can take what they can. Just think Robin Hood but in reverse.
I just have a problem with taxes in general. Why should the government steal my money when they can just print as much as they want anyway? There is no accountability.

Every time we buy something, we hand the government more money to waste. It's a scam.
 
T

Truth

Guest
Derek "questions everything" and then decides to follow the craziest alt-right conspiracy theory available.

You can see him turning logic inside out in this thread. When Obama makes a hand gesture it's proof of satanic pedophilia but when Trump makes the same gesture it means that he is being forced to work from inside the system to destroy it. Or something.
And of course none of this is political. None of this is a tactic. And he's not copy/pasting a bunch of debunked nonsense and claiming that he is THINKING for himself. No, it's a total coincidence that his thoughts about "QAnon" can be found anywhere alt-right people gather online.
 
F

firstodie..

Guest
A thing that drives me crazy is when government deliberately demeans public sector workers with the old chestnut 'better use of resources'. As though everything that's wrong with public services is as a result of mismanagement and nothing to do with the fact that the obsceneley rich aren't willing to pay back their fair share of themoney they've looted. I also don't like the irony of a minimum price for alcohol in Scotland. Government drive the most vulnerable to drink and then have the gall to charge them more for it.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Morrissey attracts the nuttiest people.

He's now an alt-right magnet because they're desperate for representation; regardless of the the shit they hate about him.

Desperate little men.

The Internet attracts these damaged, personality disordered types. Otherwise, they would be sitting alone at a lunch counter, muttering to themselves, declaring victory against their own arguments.
 

Charlie Cheswick

Well-Known Member
So has membership of the EU made life better or worse for Britons? House prices globally seems to be a challenge. Specifically in the UK what do you feel has driven the cost of housing up?
We aren't out of the EU yet. Our issues are twofold, our affordable housing was sold off and not replaced and we haven't built enough houses for a long time. Sorry three things, people buying property for investment. It's just a case of supply not meeting demand.
 

Charlie Cheswick

Well-Known Member
I just have a problem with taxes in general. Why should the government steal my money when they can just print as much as they want anyway? There is no accountability.

Every time we buy something, we hand the government more money to waste. It's a scam.
I'm happy for you to not pay taxes as long as you don't use a hospital, a road, the fire service, the police, schooling or anything else.

Those could all be done privately you say?

They can and they'd cost you a lot more. In short, the taxation is theft argument is for morons. Don't be a moron Derek.
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
We aren't out of the EU yet. Our issues are twofold, our affordable housing was sold off and not replaced and we haven't built enough houses for a long time. Sorry three things, people buying property for investment. It's just a case of supply not meeting demand.
It's an interesting phenomenon for sure, you see it in capitalist countries and you also see it in countries with a slightly more shall we say socialist type system (much higher taxes for better social programs) such as those in Scandinavia.
 

Charlie Cheswick

Well-Known Member
It's an interesting phenomenon for sure, you see it in capitalist countries and you also see it in countries with a slightly more shall we say socialist type system (much higher taxes for better social programs) such as those in Scandinavia.
For what we'd pay for a two bedroom terrace you'd be able to buy a mansion.

There are so many things wrong here that people just see as normal now.

You're expected to have a degree for the jobs that really shouldn't require them. A while ago the government set a limit on the amount Universities can charge per course for a year at 9K. So instead of most Universities just charging their usual 3K they trebled their prices so now if you go to University you'll have debts of almost 30K minimum before you start. This may work if you're on a technology course but if you're studying English? Come on!

Chances are after you finish University your earnings won't be too hot because everyone expects you to work for not too much to get 'experience'.

So you're a youngster, with an education, on fairly low wages looking to get together enough money to pay £250k upwards on your house. Even with two of you earning it's a struggle to get close.

After all of this there is still a chance you can get a foot up if one of your grandparents dies and leaves you enough to get started but when you've worked all of your life and saved up the Government take what you have to pay for your care.

All of this would be palatable if those at the top weren't allowed to take the piss but we have a system where normal working people take it up the arse from every direction to subsidise a wealth grab.
 
V

vegan.cro spirit #775

Guest
I'm not an economist so can't say what would work but it's obvious what doesn't work.

To say how difficult it is to change the tide, our last PM told us how he was gong to tackle tax avoidance while at the same time it was revealed that he gained his family's wealth from his father's tax avoidance schemes. What we're dealing with is corruption on a grand scale across the nations and how do you combat that?

You can tax people more heavily in your own country and give them the choice to stay or fuck off. That's how it used to be and I'm ok with that. My friend is a conservative and I mentioned him in my last post and he was saying we basically need to tax people more. My argument back was that people are taxed enough already, the problem is where we have the idea that a person can earn 300 times more than other people in an organization and then store his riches overseas and avoid paying tax on them.

Tackle that and then we'll talk money shortages and if any other tax rises are needed.

Socialism is just a theory, in reality the system run by the corrupt is taking the piss more than it ever has and political bias allows it. If all of us outside of that 1% realize and demand different that's what will make change. While we argue about poor people and Muslims or some other bullshit the smokescreen will continue. It's all just about divide and rule so a few greedy bastards can take what they can. Just think Robin Hood but in reverse.

This is as 100 percent incoherent as you can get.:crazy:
"Money shortages?" "Socialism is JUST A THEORY"?
'a smokescreen' that prevents druggie layabouts from easy money.:confused:

Robin Hood in reverse? How can you steal A from someone who does not have A?

Perhaps you should consider deletion of post option here, Chezz.
(Robin Hood stealing from the broke, steal what:crazy:?)
 
V

vegan.cro spirit #775

Guest
For what we'd pay for a two bedroom terrace you'd be able to buy a mansion.

There are so many things wrong here that people just see as normal now.

You're expected to have a degree for the jobs that really shouldn't require them. A while ago the government set a limit on the amount Universities can charge per course for a year at 9K. So instead of most Universities just charging their usual 3K they trebled their prices so now if you go to University you'll have debts of almost 30K minimum before you start. This may work if you're on a technology course but if you're studying English? Come on!

Chances are after you finish University your earnings won't be too hot because everyone expects you to work for not too much to get 'experience'.

So you're a youngster, with an education, on fairly low wages looking to get together enough money to pay £250k upwards on your house. Even with two of you earning it's a struggle to get close.

After all of this there is still a chance you can get a foot up if one of your grandparents dies and leaves you enough to get started but when you've worked all of your life and saved up the Government take what you have to pay for your care.

All of this would be palatable if those at the top weren't allowed to take the piss but we have a system where normal working people take it up the arse from every direction to subsidise a wealth grab.
So if some dude fresh of "uni" is not paid a million pounds off the bat so he can buy a 250 000 estate
at once, this constitutes some sort of 'wealth' grab? You just said the young dude has no bread how can someone grab something exist?
All these broke layabouts have no money to be grabbed.:crazy:
 
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vegan.cro spirit #773

Guest
Chezzer, the readership is interested in finding out how this bizarre concept-central to you economic proposals:)rolleyes:)-actually works out...how can the 'greedy' grab something that doesnt exist from somone who is broke and doesnt have it?
How does it work? Im sure you must know as you carry on about it on just about every post:lbf:
Humor us , O GREAT CHEZZER:rock:
 

Charlie Cheswick

Well-Known Member
Chezzer, the readership is interested in finding out how this bizarre concept-central to you economic proposals:)rolleyes:)-actually works out...how can the 'greedy' grab something that doesnt exist from somone who is broke and doesnt have it?
How does it work? Im sure you must know as you carry on about it on just about every post:lbf:
Humor us , O GREAT CHEZZER:rock:
5 minutes.
 
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vegan.cro spirit #773

Guest
I guess Chezz is taking a pass.. so do any of the other communists out there have an explanation for this wacky and wild theory? Some dude is broke and lazy doing bong hits in the council house and some 'greedy' tory swoops in and steals his 'wealth' adding the funds to his bank account!!!!:crazy:
Maybe Stalins Pipe can enlighten us?
 
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