"Israel" should be released as a solidarity single now

nicky wire's legs said:
Well I suppose if the Palestinians weren't intent on killing jews it would be a lot easier to come up with a solution. But since, unlike hamas, the Israeli state does care about its citizens, living side by side with people who want to kill them is no longer possible after oct 7th. So if Egypt would just open its doors to the Palestinians, that seems a good solution for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. But as 'zoom zoom the little boy' says, that will never happen. My question is why not? The Palestinians don't want to kill the Egyptians too, do they?

What about that idea is fascism? What do you propose as a reasonable solution to the problem?
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Solution is Israeli give back the land they have stolen. Settlers stop stealing land, attacking Palestinians and destroying their homes Palestine is recognised as a sovereign state. Israel pays for all the damage it has inflicted. The economic blockade which has been starving Palestinians for years is lifted. Palestine controls its own water, power etc. Palestine is free to trade with other countries and develop economically. It's infrastructure is rebuilt. Unemployment in Palestine is reduced from is previous levels of 50 / 60 %. Israel abides by international law.
 
gashonthenail said:
Hamas is a fascist organisation who executed all their political opponents in Gaza. Fascism and Islam have always gone hand in hand.

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So Israeli just murdered the Hama's key negotiator and has a track record of political assignations. So on this basis is a terrorist state. To say fascism and Islam go hand in hand is pure racism. The owner of the WSJ R Murdoch - currently meeting Netanyahu in Israel in talks of starting a new channel is hardly an example of independent unbiased journalism.
 
A great song, with little meaning or agency in terms of the current conflict: It’s hard to imagine Morrissey feeling solidarity with any advocates of genocide.
 
Les Tameside said:
A great song, with little meaning or agency in terms of the current conflict: It’s hard to imagine Morrissey feeling solidarity with any advocates of genocide.
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Very much agree with your first sentence. Although would probably describe it as a 'good' song rather than a 'great' song.
Hamas advocate genocide. And yet the woke left are happy to give them and their allies support. Are they happy to receive support back in return?

 
I think the song does have relevance to the current conflict. Lyrics like "in other climes they bitch and whine just because you're not like them" and "they are jealous of you as well" almost certainly refer to a (perceived) Arab envy, which is pure apologetics. In reality Arabs dislike Israel for the land grab and the occupation. For someone who despised George W. Bush so much, Morrissey is essentially giving us neoconservative boilerplate: "they hate us for our freedom."
 
Lucifer Sam said:
I think the song does have relevance to the current conflict. Lyrics like "in other climes they bitch and whine just because you're not like them" and "they are jealous of you as well" almost certainly refer to a (perceived) Arab envy, which is pure apologetics. In reality Arabs dislike Israel for the land grab and the occupation. For someone who despised George W. Bush so much, Morrissey is essentially giving us neoconservative boilerplate: "they hate us for our freedom."
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Yes. I'm reminded that we spoke about the song in another thread. Malarkey was going on and on about how the song is about sex and nothing else. The song clearly does relate the experience of the singer, or person unknown, throwing off repression and self hatred, to the experience of Israel in the world. But it does so in a rather oblique way.
I just think Moz has been listening to or reading Douglas Murray on Israel. As you clearly need to do more of, Aubs.
 
gashonthenail said:
Yes. I'm reminded that we spoke about the song in another thread. Malarkey was going on and on about how the song is about sex and nothing else. The song clearly does relate the experience of the singer, or person unknown, throwing off repression and self hatred, to the experience of Israel in the world. But it does so in a rather oblique way.
I just think Moz has been listening to or reading Douglas Murray on Israel. As you clearly need to do more of, Aubs.
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Right, it's certainly about sex to an extent, but that's far from the whole of it. My theory: he found himself in love with the sexually liberated air of Tel Aviv and its bronzed male flesh. He decided this aspect of Israel makes Israel great, so he did some cursory research on the subject (probably reading Douglas Murray, as he is wont to do) and out came the song.

I agree with Les Tameside that there are tones of Nietzsche in it, so Morrissey might've had better reading material than just psycho-Zionist Murray.
 
Well, easily in the early lyrics where the Christian God is cast as a gloomy despiser of the flesh. But also in the lyrics where Morrissey considers the Israelis to be the envy of others, and rightfully so in his view: "love yourself | as you should, Israel." Nietzsche favorably contrasted the Jews in Europe to the Christians. For all his insights, Nietzsche was also in many respects totally bonkers:

THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL.—One of the spectacles which the next century will invite us to witness is the decision regarding the fate of the European Jews. It is quite obvious now that they have cast their die and crossed their Rubicon: the only thing that remains for them is either to become masters of Europe or to lose Europe, as they once centuries ago lost Egypt, where they were confronted with similar alternatives. In Europe, however, they have gone through a schooling of eighteen centuries such as no other nation has ever undergone, and the experiences of this dreadful time of probation have benefited not only the Jewish community but, even to a greater extent, the individual. As a consequence of this, the resourcefulness of the modern Jews, both in mind and soul, is extraordinary. Amongst all the inhabitants of Europe it is the Jews least of all who try to escape from any deep distress by recourse to drink or to suicide, as other less gifted people are so prone to do. Every Jew can find in the history of his own family and of his ancestors a long record of instances of the greatest coolness and perseverance amid difficulties and dreadful situations, an artful cunning in fighting with misfortune and hazard. And above all it is their bravery under the cloak of wretched submission, their heroic spernere se sperni that surpasses the virtues of all the saints.​
​
People wished to make them contemptible by treating them contemptibly for nearly twenty centuries, and refusing them access to all honourable positions and dignities, and by pushing them further down into the meaner trades—and under this process indeed they have not become any cleaner. But contemptible? They have never ceased for a moment from believing themselves qualified for the very highest functions, nor have the virtues of the suffering ever ceased to adorn them. Their manner of honouring their parents and children, the rationality of their marriages and marriage customs, distinguishes them amongst all Europeans. Besides this, they have been able to create for themselves a sense of power and eternal vengeance from the very trades that were left to them (or to which they were abandoned). Even in palliation of their usury we cannot help saying that, without this occasional pleasant and useful torture inflicted on their scorners, they would have experienced difficulty in preserving their self-respect for so long. For our self-respect depends upon our ability to make reprisals in both good and evil things. Nevertheless, their revenge never urges them on too far, for they all have that liberty of mind, and even of soul, produced in men by frequent changes of place, climate, and customs of neighbours and oppressors, they possess by far the greatest experience in all human intercourse, and even in their passions they exercise the caution which this experience has developed in them. They are so certain of their intellectual versatility and shrewdness that they never, even when reduced to the direst straits, have to earn their bread by manual labour as common workmen, porters, or farm hands. In their manners we can still see that they have never been inspired by chivalric and noble feelings, or that their bodies have ever been girt with fine weapons: a certain obtrusiveness alternates with a submissiveness which is often tender and almost always painful.​
​
Now, however, that they unavoidably inter-marry more and more year after year with the noblest blood of Europe, they will soon have a considerable heritage of good intellectual and physical manners, so that in another hundred years they will have a sufficiently noble aspect not to render themselves, as masters, ridiculous to those whom they will have subdued. And this is important! and therefore a settlement of the question is still premature. They themselves know very well that the conquest of Europe or any act of violence is not to be thought of; but they also know that some day or other Europe may, like a ripe fruit, fall into their hands, if they do not clutch at it too eagerly. In the meantime, it is necessary for them to distinguish themselves in all departments of European distinction and to stand in the front rank: until they shall have advanced so far as to determine themselves what distinction shall mean. Then they will be called the pioneers and guides of the Europeans whose modesty they will no longer offend.​
​
And then where shall an outlet be found for this abundant wealth of great impressions accumulated during such an extended period and representing Jewish history for every Jewish family, this wealth of passions, virtues, resolutions, resignations, struggles, and conquests of all kinds—where can it find an outlet but in great intellectual men and works! On the day when the Jews will be able to exhibit to us as their own work such jewels and golden vessels as no European nation, with its shorter and less profound experience, can or could produce, when Israel shall have changed its eternal vengeance into an eternal benediction for Europe: then that seventh day will once more appear when old Jehovah may rejoice in Himself, in His creation, in His chosen people—and all, all of us, will rejoice with Him!​
 
Lucifer Sam said:
Well, easily in the early lyrics where the Christian God is cast as a gloomy despiser of the flesh. But also in the lyrics where Morrissey considers the Israelis to be the envy of others, and rightfully so in his view: "love yourself | as you should, Israel." Nietzsche favorably contrasted the Jews in Europe to the Christians. For all his insights, Nietzsche was also in many respects totally bonkers:

THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL.—One of the spectacles which the next century will invite us to witness is the decision regarding the fate of the European Jews. It is quite obvious now that they have cast their die and crossed their Rubicon: the only thing that remains for them is either to become masters of Europe or to lose Europe, as they once centuries ago lost Egypt, where they were confronted with similar alternatives. In Europe, however, they have gone through a schooling of eighteen centuries such as no other nation has ever undergone, and the experiences of this dreadful time of probation have benefited not only the Jewish community but, even to a greater extent, the individual. As a consequence of this, the resourcefulness of the modern Jews, both in mind and soul, is extraordinary. Amongst all the inhabitants of Europe it is the Jews least of all who try to escape from any deep distress by recourse to drink or to suicide, as other less gifted people are so prone to do. Every Jew can find in the history of his own family and of his ancestors a long record of instances of the greatest coolness and perseverance amid difficulties and dreadful situations, an artful cunning in fighting with misfortune and hazard. And above all it is their bravery under the cloak of wretched submission, their heroic spernere se sperni that surpasses the virtues of all the saints.​
​
People wished to make them contemptible by treating them contemptibly for nearly twenty centuries, and refusing them access to all honourable positions and dignities, and by pushing them further down into the meaner trades—and under this process indeed they have not become any cleaner. But contemptible? They have never ceased for a moment from believing themselves qualified for the very highest functions, nor have the virtues of the suffering ever ceased to adorn them. Their manner of honouring their parents and children, the rationality of their marriages and marriage customs, distinguishes them amongst all Europeans. Besides this, they have been able to create for themselves a sense of power and eternal vengeance from the very trades that were left to them (or to which they were abandoned). Even in palliation of their usury we cannot help saying that, without this occasional pleasant and useful torture inflicted on their scorners, they would have experienced difficulty in preserving their self-respect for so long. For our self-respect depends upon our ability to make reprisals in both good and evil things. Nevertheless, their revenge never urges them on too far, for they all have that liberty of mind, and even of soul, produced in men by frequent changes of place, climate, and customs of neighbours and oppressors, they possess by far the greatest experience in all human intercourse, and even in their passions they exercise the caution which this experience has developed in them. They are so certain of their intellectual versatility and shrewdness that they never, even when reduced to the direst straits, have to earn their bread by manual labour as common workmen, porters, or farm hands. In their manners we can still see that they have never been inspired by chivalric and noble feelings, or that their bodies have ever been girt with fine weapons: a certain obtrusiveness alternates with a submissiveness which is often tender and almost always painful.​
​
Now, however, that they unavoidably inter-marry more and more year after year with the noblest blood of Europe, they will soon have a considerable heritage of good intellectual and physical manners, so that in another hundred years they will have a sufficiently noble aspect not to render themselves, as masters, ridiculous to those whom they will have subdued. And this is important! and therefore a settlement of the question is still premature. They themselves know very well that the conquest of Europe or any act of violence is not to be thought of; but they also know that some day or other Europe may, like a ripe fruit, fall into their hands, if they do not clutch at it too eagerly. In the meantime, it is necessary for them to distinguish themselves in all departments of European distinction and to stand in the front rank: until they shall have advanced so far as to determine themselves what distinction shall mean. Then they will be called the pioneers and guides of the Europeans whose modesty they will no longer offend.​
​
And then where shall an outlet be found for this abundant wealth of great impressions accumulated during such an extended period and representing Jewish history for every Jewish family, this wealth of passions, virtues, resolutions, resignations, struggles, and conquests of all kinds—where can it find an outlet but in great intellectual men and works! On the day when the Jews will be able to exhibit to us as their own work such jewels and golden vessels as no European nation, with its shorter and less profound experience, can or could produce, when Israel shall have changed its eternal vengeance into an eternal benediction for Europe: then that seventh day will once more appear when old Jehovah may rejoice in Himself, in His creation, in His chosen people—and all, all of us, will rejoice with Him!​
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Have never thought of the song in that way. Moz doesn't strike me as a fan of Old Fred - but, he likes his own company, and anyone who likes his own company is drawn to him at some point...

en.wikipedia.org

Nietzschean Zionism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
gashonthenail said:
Let's boycott you for supporting the genocide of the Jews. For that is what would happen if the land from the River Jordan to the Mediterranean Sea was put in the hands of your Islamist friends. And goodbye to any 'queers' unfortunate enough to be living in the new woke utopia of Palestine too.
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The historical record tells a different story e.g. how Arabs were willing, before being forced, to make way, while it was the majority-white Christian Europeans who have for millennia persecuted Jews, with America not far behind, a version endorsed by none other than potential US VP Tim Walz:

Walz wrote his masters’ thesis on “Improving Human Rights and Genocide Studies in the American High School Classroom.” It argued that the way we teach the Holocaust and genocide in school was mistaken. Walz pushed for an approach that didn’t separate the Holocaust from other genocides and human rights abuses. He also insisted that it was a mistake to focus on the maniacal character of Hitler and the Nazis. Instead he argued for a more integrated, comparative, and historicist approach, incorporating factors such as colonialism, economics, and civil war, and connecting the Holocaust to the Cambodian and Armenian genocides.

https://coreyrobin.com/2024/08/07/tim-walz-hannah-arendt-and-the-occupation-at-wounded-knee/
 
gashonthenail said:
Very much agree with your first sentence. Although would probably describe it as a 'good' song rather than a 'great' song.
Hamas advocate genocide. And yet the woke left are happy to give them and their allies support. Are they happy to receive support back in return?

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Since 2017 Hamas has sought a ceasefire based on 1967 borders. Israel do not want this and do not want Palestine to be recognised as a sovereign state. Your comments are out of date. Get your facts straight. I'd rather be a woke left than a right wing Nazi, supporting the rape of Palestinian hostages, who you like to call prisoners.
 

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