Is the HIG Negative Sleeve on EBay Genuine?

Discussion in 'Marketplace archive (read-only)' started by Ann Coates, Sep 14, 2006.

  1. Ann Coates

    Ann Coates Junior Member

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    Just wondering what people thought.

    From the picture, it looks like it has a Manchester address on it. I thought that the negatives came as a result of a later mispress (1987?) and that they had the London address on the rear?

    I just wanted to stimulate some debate and get a view.........
     
  2. dallow_bg

    dallow_bg the one he left behind

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    Damn, look at what he's selling. It is a bit weird that everything he's selling is of very high value, including his non-Smiths items.

    How I wish I had lots of spending money right now.... I really want the Reel 7"

    Hand In Glove Negative
    http://cgi.ebay.com/SMITHS-Hand-In-...ryZ58668QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    Meat Is Murder Live 12"
    http://cgi.ebay.com/SMITHS-Meat-Is-...ryZ68076QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    Meat Is Murder Live 7"
    http://cgi.ebay.com/SMITHS-Meat-Is-...ryZ58668QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

    Reel Around The Fountain 7"
    http://cgi.ebay.com/SMITHS-Reel-Aro...ryZ58668QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
     
  3. NIPPON

    NIPPON Junior Member

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    i'm not sure either. funny how the bidders are kept private. does anyone have one to confirm its genuine
     
  4. grlmopz

    grlmopz Junior Member

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    Beware!!

    Beware of these auctions.

    While the seller does accept paypal, he or she is trying to convince buyers to pay via money order, wire transfer or bipay.com. None of these three methods of payment is insured.

    If you win one of these auctions, insist upon using paypal, which will refund money if the auction is fraudulent AND if specific conditions are met (seller's positive feedback must exceed a certain percentage - 95, I believe - for example). Oddly, the percentage that's considered is the percentage at the time that you contest the auction, not at the time you bid.

    If you consider that the seller has only 27 positive feedback, this is very risky. If the auctions are fraudulent AND if two of the other auction winners file a dispute before you do, suddenly the positive feedback percentage falls below 95%, and you're no longer allowed to file a claim. I only know because this happened to me; fortunately, I only lost $35.

    I hope this helps....
    Scott
     
  5. NIPPON

    NIPPON Junior Member

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    Thought That Myself. The Bidders Are Kept Private Which I Thought Were Strange
    Nice Items Though But A Big Price To Pay If It You Get Shafted In The Process
     
  6. dallow_bg

    dallow_bg the one he left behind

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    Bidders kept private in case people like us..... wanted to contact them and give them fair warning perhaps?
     
  7. Electric

    Electric New Member

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    It's interesting how two highest bidders have retracted their bids today. Hmmmm...
     
  8. dallow_bg

    dallow_bg the one he left behind

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    The people who bid on these are hardcore fans.
    I'm not surprised if they keep up with these forums.
     
  9. Stephane

    Stephane Pashernate member

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    I think the negative sleeve and both "Meat Is Murder" test pressings are fakes...

    Beware...

    Stephane
     
  10. Still ILL

    Still ILL Junior Member

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    I have a negative sleeve and know a few people that own one and do believe that this one is a fake, along with the Meat is Murder 7" which is different to the 'standard' one, and the 12" is NOT Mayking! :eek:
     
  11. serious

    serious New Member

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    Hi there, it happens I came by this forum and it happens I'm the owner of Art Serious, I'm running the auctions someone is trying to ruin.
    All the allegations here are simply ridiculous.
    Our feedback is low because we run auctions only when we have rare items to auction. Ebay fees are outrageous and listing a $20 record to get $8 or less after we have deducted all the fees (incl. paypal fees) and the price we paid for that record it's simply not worth the effort. So we list only rare records.
    Another allegation was related to our feedback rating. Well, write to the last guys who left a feedback comment and ask them what they have purchased and how much they have paid for and especially if they were happy with the purchase.
    A guy bought a Misfits LP, over $1500...happy customer who paid by Paypal. Another one purchased a Cure promo, 500 euro circa paid...another happy customer...and so on.
    Why are the auctions private? Have you ever won an expensive item? And have you ever received an offer from an unknown ebayer for the same title at a cheaper priceafter the auction has ended? Or have you ever received an offer from an unknown ebayer while an auction you are partecipating to is still running? This is a serious problem and it happened to us several times. I always reported this offense to ebay and decided to run private listings only, as long as the item is expensive.
    Fake or not fake?! The Meat is Murder 12" test pressing was manufactured by Mayking and it's quite easy to verify, the matrix info is correct and matches the matrix of the regular version. Also a serious collector should be informed before writing in a public forum and telling jokes such as "the 12" is not Mayking". Not all the 12" test pressings do have the Mayking label. There's a lot of confusion here and all the sources state something different. For example, www.passionsjustlikemine.com states "not all test pressings have a 'Mayking' label, some have a plain light yellow one". While the well known Record Collector article does not even mention the 12" with the Mayking label. They made a mistake believing the 12" without the Mayking label is not a Mayking test pressing. Record collector made two entries for the 7" test pressing, one with Mayking label -they wrote this is a Mayking test pressing- and one with yellow label without mentioning Mayking. Again this is a Mayking test poressing too, to prove this there's the matrix info which is identical. The Meat is Murder 12" test pressing exists with white label and it was seen a couple of times in the last 4 years with the white label variation. Note, the same plate was used to press all these test pressings even if they were pressed in separate moments.
    An interesting story has to be told about the negative sleeve. This comes from a bid Smiths collector who is also a music producer. He got it directly from a sales rep at Rough Trade at the time when the 45 was released in 1986....however identical to the 1984 2nd press. After an in-depth conversation about this negative sleeve was confirmed about 25 copies survived to destruction but the exact numer is impossible to score (may 35 or 15) because a few test proofs were printed and other copies may have been held by the typographer. The first test proofs were done by mistake using the same films of the first pressing, and turned out to be negative. Rough Trade evaluated the chance to release it that way, with inverted colors after replacing the films of course. Another short run was printed after the plans changed to the original one. Please note there are negative sleeves with the Manchester address and negative sleeves with the London address. The sales rep was unable to confirm the number of survived copies of each sleeve but the first one with the Manchester address should be less. I will not write name of the RT sales rep here, but if you wanna get his name feel free to email me.
    As to the first allegation "he/she is trying to convince buyers to pay via money order, wire transfer or bipay.com"....it's wrong....why not to write and ask about the requirements to pay by Paypal? It's that simple, isn't it.
    Paypal fees are simply outrageous but I realize buyers feel more comfortable to pay through Paypal. If the buyer will add the Paypal fees to the total we will be more than glad to accept Paypal.
    In any case our policy is 100% satisfaction guaranteed, so if for any reason the buyer is not satisfied he/she can return the item for a fulll refund (minus shipping). No questions asked!
    I'm open to suggestions and to a fair and polite convesation.
    And before closing this long post I should mention a private deal about 2 UNPARALLELED Smiths rarities we may auction in the near future.- It's up to the owner who has still to take a decision. I'm talking about the unreleased reel to reel 16 track master tape of the Decibel Studio demos from 1982 and the original cassette tape on which Morrissey and Marr recorded 'I Want a Boy For My Birthday' in 1982 in Marr's bedroom. The original one, not a copy of the 30 sec. clip.
    I will not tell the full story behind these two beatiful rarities, I think the owner would not like it if I disclosed too much info. This master tape was recorded in 1982 when "The Smiths" as such didn't exist at that time. Johnny Marr met Morrissey in 1982 and they started to create some music. At this stage they recorded 'I Want a Boy For My Birthday' in Johnny's bedroom on a simple 2 or 4 track recorder. Just Morrissey on vocal and Marr on guitar.
    Then they began to write some songs of their own. E.g. Suffer Little Children and The Hand That Rocks The Cradle. Johnny Marr knew a lot of people in the 'music scene' in Manchester. He arranged with Dale Hibbert to record these songs in the Decibel Studios in Manchester. Dale Hibbert was a studio engineer there and he was also a bass player. Dale managed to use the studio for free after midnight. So they engaged a certain Simon Wolstencroft to play drums; Dale Hibbert would play bass, Johnny Marr guitar and Morrissey voice. So they recorded these songs on a one inch 16 track Ampex tape. At that time "The Smiths" didn't yet exist, there was no contract with a record company or anything. The recorded songs were later (1984) released (of course different versions) on the first album of The Smiths on Rough Trade. The owner is afraid of possible legal issues if he sold an original master tape, an unreleased master tape, which was acquired legally but remember we are speaking of the Smiths and an unreleased Master Tape. The owner of the licensing rights to the entire Smiths catalogue may believe to be the owner of that master tape, if not the medium itself, the contects at least.

    Ah...and as to the 2 guys who retracted their bids, they both were reported to ebay safeharbour because their explanation was "netered wrong amount" but "forgot" to enter the correct amount right after as per ebay rules!!!
    One of these teo bidders loves the "bid retraction" activity, he has 6 previous bid retracrtions. He placed bids on three of our auctions and retracted 2 bids only while he is still bidding on one of our Smiths item. Of course he tried to discover the amount of the highest bid, that's why he bid and then retracted.

    That's all for now.
    Kidn regards to all users on this forum,
    Ferdinando
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2006
  12. dallow_bg

    dallow_bg the one he left behind

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    Well Holy Shi.............

    The 30 Sec clip comes from the first live gig though.

    .
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2006
  13. serious

    serious New Member

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    I do not know where the 30sec clip comes from, I will ask to the tape's owner, but I wrote it to confirm this is not that 30 sec. clip.

    However that clip does not sound like a live gig
     
  14. dallow_bg

    dallow_bg the one he left behind

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    Ask the owners whether or not they feel this should go to the record companies for serious, official release.
    I think this is something more than just an individual should own.
    I obviously could never afford something like this, nor could 99 percent of Smiths fans out there.
    But an official release, well, that would cement their name in some portion of musical history.

    .
     
  15. serious

    serious New Member

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    This is not so easy. Even if a record company purchases the master tape they can't release it on a large scale without getting proper licensing rights from the legal owner. You can buy a master tape, you can be the owner of the physycal tape but you are not the owner of the music recoreded on it and you can't distribute copies of it. If someone sells a reel to reel tape does not transfer the copyright ownership if this is not clearly declared on a piece of paper, a legal agreement. Dale Hibbert was the owner of the tape but I doubt he was the onwer of the licensing rights. There are other details I can't disclose but I think we will not see this tape distributed on CD any time soon.
     
  16. dallow_bg

    dallow_bg the one he left behind

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    And who knows who the legal copyright owner of these recordings actually are right?
    Warner may own the rights to all Smiths material, but these aren't exactly Smiths recordings.
    Oh well, I'll just dream.

    .
     
  17. Despair & I

    Despair & I New Member

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    Caveat emptor.
     
  18. serious

    serious New Member

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    That's the point...Warner, one of the biggest majors on the planet earth, owns all the Smiths material...this may include any material ever written and recorded by the duo Morrissey/Marr. Ok, there was Dale Hibbert, he may be held a 1/4 ownership of those tracks...but maybe he had just to be paid for the studio hours andf the ownership belonged to Morrissey/Marr. Who knows exatly? I may do some conjectures because I was told a story about that night at the Hibbert's studio but since I can't verify it for sure I prefer not to mention it.
    Since a big band is involved it's highly probable Warner would sue whoever would sell this kind of stuff. Let's assume they know to be wrong, but they do have the time and the money to start a legal action and try to get those tapes!
     
  19. serious

    serious New Member

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    Caveat emptor is a principle of commerce stating that if no warranty is provided then a customer buys at his own risk That's not our case, we give 100% guarantee of its authenticity by providing any contact info to verify it with Rough Trade sales rep I mentioned before etc... And last but not least we always take back the record if the buyer is not satisfied. And if this is not enough buyer can pay with a credit card though Paypal!!! Paypal buyer protection + Visa/Mastercard protection.
     
  20. grlmopz

    grlmopz Junior Member

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    Let me just say that I was the one whose eyebrows were raised by the bidpay/money order requirement in a message above.

    I can verify that, four years ago, a single owner revealed to me that he possessed the Decibel recordings AND the "I Want a Boy" tape. So, while it's still *possible* that these auctions are fraudulent, these new revelations make it seem very unlikely now.
     
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