Is MOZ obsessed / fixated with death ?

Is MOZ obsessed with death ?


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marred

Member
It certainly doesn't make one a hero. I know what was going on. Chemicals. Heroin addiction. Mucked up dopamine and serotonin levels. Rehab and therapy and medication take effort. Pulling a trigger is easy... cowardly. There is nothing glamorous about suicide. Just ask the survivors. My guess is you have never lost a close loved one to suicide. It is always those who have not that defend suicide as some legitimate escape route. Suicide is a form of murder. It is murdering the self. And it creates victims just like other forms of murder. Most likely that is why it is taboo in most societies. It violates the social contract. And we are social animals despite what depressives like Morrissey wish to proclaim.
Sure so you know what substances he was taking. That's what was going on inside his bloodstream. I'm talking about his mind. You didn't have access to that did you? How do you know he didn't put in any effort to beat his depression?

Where have I defended suicide? I'm defending people and their fragile minds against your judgemental point of view. I never said suicide was heroic or glamorous. btw your guess about me not having lost a loved one from suicide is wrong. I also know a lot about depression, unfortunately. There is no such thing as a social contract. I don't really give a shit about societies taboos on suicide. I can tell you right now if someone is sitting there right now with a gun to their head ready to pull the trigger there is nothing easy about it. I'd go through your album collection and start removing all the cowards. I think you'll find quite a few beautiful records missing.

We humans are very fragile creatures and most of us try to do the best we can for ourselves and others but if you think people who end up taking their own lives are somehow failed human beings then I really am at a loss for words.
 
It is too tiresome to explain? Why don't you step up to the plate and give it a shot. Or do you prefer to take the easy way, the cowardly way: ad hominem attack with no intelligent refutation of my argument. My guess is you react emotionally and not logically to the stimuli surrounding you. Thus you CANNOT construct a rational retort. Prove me wrong wise guy (gal).
Ok i'll pick one point , ur confusing weakness with cowardice. You're attitudes f***ing shit, you've just called a dead person a coward lol, what does that make you. No one knows what any person contemplating suicide is thinking except that they must be feeling an unbearable amount of pain, i'm sure you havent been there, not to that extent anyway and if you have contemplated death then the only thing stopping you was the cowardice to go thru with it, not strength. f***ing good on Cobain for having the balls to do it, not a hero and not a coward but a weak man.
 

realitybites

making lemonade
Subscriber
Just because your art or music is in the public domain that doesn't mean you now have to be a role model. How people behave and treat each other is their own responsibility. It's not up to celebrities and artists to show us the way. They have enough trouble keeping their own lives on track. Do you really want guidance from them?

No one knows what was going on inside Cobain's head. Yes it is always impressive when someone gets the black dog off their shoulder but the last thing people need is to be labeled a coward if they fail to rise above it and fall by the wayside. Committing suicide doesn't make one a coward. Sometimes it's beyond their control. Look up some stats re male depression and it's suicide rate. Are they all cowards too? Frankly I am kinda surprised at your angle on this.

btw I don't agree with Morrissey's honourable comment. I remember when he said it and I just sighed.
You are surprised at my angle? Why, because it seems, as a survivor, I would take offense at the term 'coward' being used to describe a lost loved one? I can be objective. If the label fits for others then it must fit in all cases. And it does:


cow·ard

1.
a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.


An artist who creates art is not a social, political, and moral role model until he or she opens his or her mouth and starts touting ideologies. How many people has Morrissey influenced to become vegetarian? How many cite his influence? A great many. Even here in these forums. So it is OK if he has the means and power to be a role model in an AREA you approve of. But when it comes to suicide he is off the hook? It is little Jimmy's fault for taking his views seriously about suicide and adopting them as his own? But great that he no longer eats meat after listening to Meat is Murder? Who are you kidding with that illogical argument?
 

marred

Member
Ok i'll pick one point , ur confusing weakness with cowardice. You're attitudes f***ing shit, you've just called a dead person a coward lol, what does that make you. No one knows what any person contemplating suicide is thinking except that they must be feeling an unbearable amount of pain, i'm sure you havent been there, not to that extent anyway and if you have contemplated death then the only thing stopping you was the cowardice to go thru with it, not strength. f***ing good on Cobain for having the balls to do it, not a hero and not a coward but a weak man.
A weak man, maybe but I suspect his mind was weakened by his depression.
 

marred

Member
You are surprised at my angle? Why, because it seems, as a survivor, I would take offense at the term 'coward' being used to describe a lost loved one? I can be objective. If the label fits for others then it must fit in all cases. And it does:


cow·ard

1.
a person who lacks courage in facing danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.


An artist who creates art is not a social, political, and moral role model until he or she opens his or her mouth and starts touting ideologies. How many people has Morrissey influenced to become vegetarian? How many cite his influence? A great many. Even here in these forums. So it is OK if he has the means and power to be a role model in an AREA you approve of. But when it comes to suicide he is off the hook? It is little Jimmy's fault for taking his views seriously about suicide and adopting them as his own? But great that he no longer eats meat after listening to Meat is Murder? Who are you kidding with that illogical argument?
He doesn't have control over who eats meat and who doesn't. Do you think he's a hypnotist or something? And now you're quoting the dictionary? Please don't ever go into the mental health profession for god's sake.
 

realitybites

making lemonade
Subscriber
Ok i'll pick one point , ur confusing weakness with cowardice. You're attitudes f***ing shit, you've just called a dead person a coward lol, what does that make you. No one knows what any person contemplating suicide is thinking except that they must be feeling an unbearable amount of pain, i'm sure you havent been there, not to that extent anyway and if you have contemplated death then the only thing stopping you was the cowardice to go thru with it, not strength. f***ing good on Cobain for having the balls to do it, not a hero and not a coward but a weak man.
Dead people are sacred and off limits from criticism? Was Hitler a coward? YES. In more ways than one. He is dead. Thank gawd. He took the easy way out. Suicide.

I suffered with clinical depression for over ten years. I do know what it is like to hover in that gray area: not dead but not living--the living dead. It took courage and effort and all the strength I could muster to keep searching for hope. Hope that things COULD change. And after much hardship and strength on my part, I found my way out. And I am alive. My son is very grateful for this, as is my mother. I could have ended MY suffering painlessly and quickly. I chose NOT to give up. Balls to walk away in the face of opposition? Hardly. Just the opposite.

(Thanks for taking the challenge and replying. :) )
 
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A weak man, maybe but I suspect his mind was weakened by his depression.
Yeah obviously, people dont take there lives on a whim, more too it than depression, like it said its unbearable, loneliness, guilt, childhood trauma, a million and one other things that seemingly you guys have been lucky to avoid.
 
Dead people are scared and off limits from criticism? Was Hitler a coward? YES. In more ways than one. He is dead. Thank gawd. He took the easy way out. Suicide.

I suffered with clinical depression for over ten years. I do know what it is like to hover in that gray area: not dead but not living--the living dead. It took courage and effort and all the strength I could muster to keep searching for hope. Hope that things COULD change. And after much hardship and strength on my part, I found my way out. And I am alive. My son is very grateful for this, as is my mother. I could have ended MY suffering painlessly and quickly. I chose NOT to give up. Balls to walk away in the face of opposition? Hardly. Just the opposite.

(Thanks for taking the challenge and replying. :) )
I know you're reaching a bit when u throw hitler in the mix
 

realitybites

making lemonade
Subscriber
He doesn't have control over who eats meat and who doesn't. Do you think he's a hypnotist or something? And now you're quoting the dictionary? Please don't ever go into the mental health profession for god's sake.

Are you in the mental health profession? Are you a doctor? What makes you qualified to know who is worthy of joining the ranks? That was a lazy ad hominem attack, and you know it.

He can only control his own thoughts and actions. True. But the power of persuasion is a gift/a privilege that carries responsibilities. Parents have this power. And most take it seriously and are ethical. If he felt powerlesss to change others' minds, then why does he go to such great effort to try to convince people that eating meat is equivalent to murder? Oh wait, HE NEVER said that. You did. You are cherry picking, my dear. Either he can and does persuade (possibly in all things) or he doesn't. He does; and he KNOWS he does.
 
Swap Hitler for anyone who is dead. How about Mother Theresa? You said dead people are beyond criticism. I said they are not. Mother Theresa was a coward as well.
Copy and paste the line where i said "dead people are beyond criticism" otherwise shut the f*** up putting words into other peoples mouths.
 

realitybites

making lemonade
Subscriber
Sure so you know what substances he was taking. That's what was going on inside his bloodstream. I'm talking about his mind. You didn't have access to that did you? How do you know he didn't put in any effort to beat his depression?

Where have I defended suicide? I'm defending people and their fragile minds against your judgemental point of view. I never said suicide was heroic or glamorous. btw your guess about me not having lost a loved one from suicide is wrong. I also know a lot about depression, unfortunately. There is no such thing as a social contract. I don't really give a shit about societies taboos on suicide. I can tell you right now if someone is sitting there right now with a gun to their head ready to pull the trigger there is nothing easy about it. I'd go through your album collection and start removing all the cowards. I think you'll find quite a few beautiful records missing.

We humans are very fragile creatures and most of us try to do the best we can for ourselves and others but if you think people who end up taking their own lives are somehow failed human beings then I really am at a loss for words.
I was talking about his mind when I mentioned serotonin and dopamine: neuroransmitters that are responsible for influencing mood. Chemicals in the brain.

I don't think that people who have successfully committed suicide are failed human beings who are not worthy of respect. I said suicide is the cowardly choice. As opposed to being the honorable thing to do. This whole argument began with me refuting your claims, remember?

Remove records from my collection? Can you separate the art from the man? I can. Michelangelo could have been a child molester for all I know. it would not render David any less than the masterpiece it is.
 

realitybites

making lemonade
Subscriber
Copy and paste the line where i said "dead people are beyond criticism" otherwise shut the f*** up putting words into other peoples mouths.
"you've just called a dead person a coward lol, what does that make you."

Basically you said I was a coward for criticizing a dead person. In other words, dead people should not be criticized. Should be beyond criticism. Are beyond criticism. Please keep the debate civil by refraining from the use of character assignations and profanity. You lose the argument in the eyes of the readers when you resort to such COWARDLY tactics.
 
"you've just called a dead person a coward lol, what does that make you."

Basically you said I was a coward for criticizing a dead person. In other words, dead people should not be criticized. Should be beyond criticism. Are beyond criticism. Please keep the debate civil by refraining from the use of character assignations and profanity. You lose the argument in the eyes of the readers when you resort to such COWARDLY tactics.
"dead people should not be criticized. Should be beyond criticism. Are beyond criticism" - Realitybites

How many times do you want to tie yourself in knots, give up while you're behind.
 

Eurydice

New Member
I'm sure he's utterly fascinated with death. Death is one of the best teachers in life, too. He has witnessed his fair share of heartbreaking deaths (including Finn's youthful and helpless descent into it and MacColl's shocking and unexpected passing in Mexico). I think he's trying to make us all more aware of what's in store or us and our loved ones when it comes to death. It may very well be a teaching method he's putting out there for anyone who will listen. Plus, it's perfectly normal for someone to look at all the angles death has and to either try to make sense of it or to explore it in various ways for whatever reasons. I think Morrissey does the exploration bit well and often (a recurring theme just like death was often used in many of the most popular poets). He's akin to Emily Dickinson in his lyrics when it comes to the modern-day-made macabre topic. They both thoroughly explored the many facets of death and their listeners/readers usually pick up on it quickly since it's often laid on pretty thick.

Plus, Morrissey tends to behave more like his Victorian counterparts in the sense that death/mourning is a major part of life. Why not write about two of the most popular subjects on the planet since everyone thinks and experiences them very often?
 

hand in glove

40 percent papier mache
Subscriber
Saving lives is honorable; destroying them isn't. Ask Cobain's daughter if she thinks her daddy's death was honorable. Surviving despite depression and/or suffering makes one valiant. Giving up makes one a coward. His opinions regarding suicide are mucked up. That he felt the need to put them to print shows how tasteless and irresponsible and self-centered the man can be. (Can't we all be at times? Yes. But he is a public figure which carries more social weight: role modeling, influence. )
I was only quoting Morrissey to better answer the question about his "Fixation" with death. I didn't say I agree or disagree with him. I have been deeply affected by the suicide of two very close friends, so I have my own mixed emotions about the topic, actually. The first of the two suicides still haunts me to this day. But the second one, I can understand completely. That said, if I am to be honest, and if you'll accept that it's my own opinion and not one swayed by Morrissey, I would like to stress that I'd never call either one of them a coward.

What about war heroes? Many take their own lives everyday because they can't take what they've been through or seen. What about them? They're honorable. Fought on the front lines. Watched friends burned alive by the enemy. Put their own lives at risk to save others...only to lose a personal battle in the end. Cowards? I don't think so.
 

Oh my god. it's Robby!

spontaneously luminescent
fixated, shame you chose such an abstract and subjective term :o
so while I don't know if he is, because we all have different experiences of death that happens around us, or how much of it :straightface:
but for me he often sings about death and such in a way that really gets to me...
 

realitybites

making lemonade
Subscriber
I was only quoting Morrissey to better answer the question about his "Fixation" with death. I didn't say I agree or disagree with him. I have been deeply affected by the suicide of two very close friends, so I have my own mixed emotions about the topic, actually. The first of the two suicides still haunts me to this day. But the second one, I can understand completely. That said, if I am to be honest, and if you'll accept that it's my own opinion and not one swayed by Morrissey, I would like to stress that I'd never call either one of them a coward.

What about war heroes? Many take their own lives everyday because they can't take what they've been through or seen. What about them? They're honorable. Fought on the front lines. Watched friends burned alive by the enemy. Put their own lives at risk to save others...only to lose a personal battle in the end. Cowards? I don't think so.
I think those soldiers are suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It doesn't matter if the disorder is caused by trauma or a chemical imbalance. Suicide is never the solution. Funding, intervention, community and family support are the solutions. Every effort should be made to help those afflicted. Many feel like burdens to those around them, thinking suicide will relieve others of their suffering. This is due to faulty thinking. We must lift people up. Not let them go.

Morrissey's comments regarding suicide are irresponsible and careless.

OK, leave the word coward out of it. It is still not honorable or taking charge of one's destiny. Suicides feel powerless--not in control of their destinies. They have no hope. It is not a rational choice. But one made through a filter of mental illness--an unhealthy, diseased or damaged brain.
 

hand in glove

40 percent papier mache
Subscriber
I think those soldiers are suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. It doesn't matter if the disorder is caused by trauma or a chemical imbalance. Suicide is never the solution. Funding, intervention, community and family support are the solutions. Every effort should be made to help those afflicted. Many feel like burdens to those around them, thinking suicide will relieve others of their suffering. This is due to faulty thinking. We must lift people up. Not let them go.

Morrissey's comments regarding suicide are irresponsible and careless.

OK, leave the word coward out of it. It is still not honorable or taking charge of one's destiny. Suicides feel powerless--not in control of their destinies. They have no hope. It is not a rational choice. But one made through a filter of mental illness--an unhealthy, diseased or damaged brain.
I agree - mostly.
 

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