Is It Really So Strange...that these lyrics could be Moz at his most gay?

nugz

SUPAHSTAR!
no. art can never been done with an audience in mind - for an audience. call it selfish but art is something someone creates because they enjoy the process of doing it and not for an audience. antonioni said this. woody allen said this etc. and i as a hobbyist say it: i make music and paint because it´s fun and not because i want someone to see or hear anything particular in it. i think an emotional creative process rules out any such rational intentions anyway.

I agree *claps* ;)
 

Comtesse

Starved Of Mirth
My objection was not about anyone disagreeing with anyone, it was about objecting to the very discussion. That objection, actually, could make for an interesting discussion (in another thread) about what is a proper line of inquiry and what isn't.

Precisely. I have a problem with anyone going into a discussion thread and telling the participants of the thread to shut up, which is what Cassius and Pandora were both doing. I have nothing against either of them personally - just the way in which they were deliberately disrupting a conversation because they didn't agree with it. Most of us just avoid taking part in discussions we're not interested in, rather than trying to stop them.
 

Comtesse

Starved Of Mirth
by comtesse posted somewhere here in this thread


@comtesse
do you know where this pic got taken..looks like a wedding and he is about to preparing a speech and people cheering him to do so *lol*

or some award show?[/QUOTE]

It was at the Silver Clef Awards Luncheon on June 18, 2004.
 

Cassius

New Member
Precisely. I have a problem with anyone going into a discussion thread and telling the participants of the thread to shut up, which is what Cassius and Pandora were both doing. I have nothing against either of them personally - just the way in which they were deliberately disrupting a conversation because they didn't agree with it. Most of us just avoid taking part in discussions we're not interested in, rather than trying to stop them.

I told you to shut up? I'm sorry if I did. Would you point me towards the post where I did, as I don't remember doing it, please?

And all I originally said was "Why do we keep having these threads?". I never tried to stop it. That would have been pointless.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Beautiful sentiments about the purity of the genuine artist abound, but unfortunately they don't match up with Morrissey's many thoughts concerning his audience, something he's always been very interested in ("We want to reach as many people as possible"), or even the more mundane complaints he's made his entire career about lack of promotion by his record companies. In my reading yesterday I came across an articles in which he bitterly moaned about Rough Trade "not discovering flyposters" until the 10th single or the industry "conspiracy" to keep The Smiths off daytime Radio One.

No, Morrissey isn't singing and making records only because he wants to express himself artistically. Pop music is about reaching an audience and he knows and embraces that. People like Morrissey (and Allen and Lynch) work as artists in a popular medium. They occupy a middle ground between the insularity of the artist and commercial prostitution, a precarious position which sometimes figures as subjects of their art. Working in film or music you are forced into collaborations and even good ones, like Morrissey writing songs with Marr or Whyte, are a dilution of their essential artistry. A fiercely independent artist who only created for himself would never even set foot in the arena of pop music. They make these compromises because they want to connect with an audience, and like it or not the audience does factor into the process of artistic creation at some point following the initial burst of creation.

In looking at these artists and their relationship to the audience, it's also worth pointing out that they were once themselves enthusiastic members of the same audience they're trying to reach. Morrissey's passions we all know: Sandie Shaw, Eurovision, Bolan, Bowie, the Marvelettes. Allen loved the Marx Brothers, Fellini, Bergman. Lynch's influences are more widespread, including painting and literature, but watching his films it's obvious he soaked himself in movies from an early age and incorporates a dizzying number of bits and pieces from stuff he liked. Each considers himself an artist, and yet each also knows what it's like to be in the audience. I think a big part of their design is to recreate the experiences they had for a younger generation. Morrissey wants to inspire a twelve-year old the same way Bolan inspired him at the age of twelve.
 
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Comtesse

Starved Of Mirth
I told you to shut up? I'm sorry if I did. Would you point me towards the post where I did, as I don't remember doing it, please?

And all I originally said was "Why do we keep having these threads?". I never tried to stop it. That would have been pointless.

You didn't use the exact words "shut up" - you just tried to stop the discussion, which is the same thing. Anyway, whatever, I just want to talk about Morrissey, not forum protocol. That is truly boring.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
While I resist the idea of Morrissey as being purposely vague or ambiguous and open to interpretation, I guess I have to begrudgingly accept that others feel as passionately about his songs as I do, though they see them differently.

I really liked reading about your discovery of The Smiths, Dave, it sounds a lot like mine. (And many others here, probably.) But just out of curiosity, did you have access to any of the early interviews with Morrissey? I ask because they were a big part of my love of Morrissey and The Smiths almost from the beginning. I owned a few of the records for awhile before finding a magazine article featuring Morrissey, but after reading a few pages of his fantastic witticisms and caustic remarks I was obsessed with finding others. Two of my most cherished books are "Those Charming Men Parts 1 and 2", collections of interviews, and I practially memorized both of them.

It was in the early interviews, mostly around 1983-84, that Morrissey spoke passionately about his ambitions to write for as many people as possible. The Smiths' credo was that everyone should be included. Morrissey's writing philosophy was to speak plainly and concretely about various things yet with enough subtlety that each song could be interpreted in different ways by different people. Reading about those ideals you'd have thought them paradoxical, but in the event Morrissey more or less accomplished what he set out to do. Anyway, I guess the idea that my interpretations of the songs were only some of a multitude of possible interpretations was ingrained in my mind from the beginning. For me it was Exhibit A of Morrissey's genius.
 

Cassius

New Member
You didn't use the exact words "shut up" - you just tried to stop the discussion, which is the same thing. Anyway, whatever, I just want to talk about Morrissey, not forum protocol. That is truly boring.

Fine, let me say this then and we'll be done with it. If I didn't say shut up, then please refrain from putting words in my mouth then, please. Thank you.

Also, I did not try to stop your discussion. I merely interjected my opinion. I don't quite see how that stops your discussion in any way, when you could have chosen to ignore my post in the first place. I in no way attempted to stop your discussion.
 

Comtesse

Starved Of Mirth
I really liked reading about your discovery of The Smiths, Dave, it sounds a lot like mine. (And many others here, probably.) But just out of curiosity, did you have access to any of the early interviews with Morrissey? I ask because they were a big part of my love of Morrissey and The Smiths almost from the beginning. I owned a few of the records for awhile before finding a magazine article featuring Morrissey, but after reading a few pages of his fantastic witticisms and caustic remarks I was obsessed with finding others. Two of my most cherished books are "Those Charming Men Parts 1 and 2", collections of interviews, and I practially memorized both of them.

I did memorize quite a few of my favorite interviews. Good to see I'm not the only one!
 

Comtesse

Starved Of Mirth
Fine, let me say this then and we'll be done with it. If I didn't say shut up, then please refrain from putting words in my mouth then, please. Thank you.

Also, I did not try to stop your discussion. I merely interjected my opinion. I don't quite see how that stops your discussion in any way, when you could have chosen to ignore my post in the first place. I in no way attempted to stop your discussion.

You were one
You knew you were one
And you told us to shut up
No, not literally, but figuratively
And now that's all I see, as the thread fades...
 
D

Dave

Guest
I really liked reading about your discovery of The Smiths, Dave, it sounds a lot like mine. (And many others here, probably.) But just out of curiosity, did you have access to any of the early interviews with Morrissey?

I remember seeing him in Creem magazine before I bought the records. I enjoyed his interviews before I heard him sing. It's possible that his image in Creem influenced my interpretation of the music. I do collect paperback biographies of popular musicians, from John Lennon to The Bay City Rollers but I've never read a book about Morrissey.
 

sistasheila

tjekket
there is on part in shoplifters which im not the only one to inerpret in a certain way

I know I am gonna be slated for saying this, but I always thought the song had very overt gay connotations. I think this is yet another example of clever wordplay from Moz, and that he always intended the title to be a pun (replace shop with shirt). Also the bit in the song - "A heartless hand on my shoulder, a push and it's over, alabaster crashes down..." apart from the obvious store detective reading, you can also see it as an act of sex - alabaster as semen?
Or maybe not, but that's my interpreteation.

Sk.

thats from uncleskinny in a shoplifters thread

also interesting when he wrote about the sexuality of others:
all the lazy dykes:
about an unhappy married woman "who should join the girls" since he mentioned the palms bar (which is a lesbian club/bar-right?I wonder if he ever visit it? i have a loverly picture in mind where he plays strip poker with a bunch of dykes ( recently heard striptease with a difference-that must be the source of that pic);-)


All the lazy dykes, Cross armed at the palms, Then legs astride their bikes, Indigo burns on their arms
One sweet day, An emotional whirl, You will be good to yourself, And you'll come and join the girls

All the lazy dykes, They pity how you live, Just "somebody's wife", You give, and you give,
And you give, and you give, Give, and you give
And one sweet day , An emotional whirl, You will be good to yourself, And you'll come and join the girls

Touch me, Squeeze me, Hold me too tightly, And when you look at me you actually see me
And I've, Never felt so alive, In the whole of my life, In the whole of my life

Free yourself, Be yourself, Come to the Palms and see yourself
And at last your life begins, At last your life begins
At last your life begins, At last your life begins

i wonder why so many people dislike the song?why?




also sheila take a bow with its gender bender .iam a boy and you are a girl iam a girl and you are a boy
i read somewhere that dragqueens perforemd by mozzers rquest at the smiths us gigs (85 or 86)..but the audience was not too much into it...he also said a lot of interesting things about genderømust look for it someday..and the cover of candy darling matches the sheila song perfectly
Is it wrong to want to live on your own ?
No, it's not wrong - but I must know
How can someone so young
Sing words so sad ?

Sheila take a, Sheila take a bow
Boot the grime of this world in the crotch, dear
And don't go home tonight
Come out and find the one that you love and who loves you
The one that you love and who loves you
Oh ...


Is it wrong not to always be glad ?
No, it's not wrong - but I must add
How can someone so young
Sing words so sad ?


Sheila take a, Sheila take a bow
Boot the grime of this world in the crotch, dear
And don't go home tonight
Come out and find the one that you love and who loves you
The one that you love and who loves you


Take my hand and off we stride
Oh, la ...
You're a girl and I'm a boy
La ...
Take my hand and off we stride
Oh, la ...
I'm a girl and you're a boy
La ...


Sheila take a, Sheila take a bow
La ...
Throw your homework onto the fire
Come out and find the one that you love
Come out and find the one you love
 
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