Independent / James Moore: "Morrissey on tour is the last thing Britain needs right now" (July 23, 2022)

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Malarkey

Well-Known Member
Are you still clinging on to the idea that Moz thinks multiculturalism is great. Keep taking those pills. And doing those mental gymnastics.

Bonfire was my last hope of what exactly? Another great album? From the concert footage I have my hopes. Maybe not as good as Dog on a Chain - but very promising. Veronica is a knock-out clearly.

The worry of course is that because of the title track of the album it may never get released. Bonfire is clearly an incredibly problematic song for anyone who thinks multiculturalism is a great thing. Some might even say it's a dog whistle of a song.

You will deny that of course. You will say the song just expresses understandable anger about the slaughter of innocent lives. Again, kidding yourself.

Moz knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote that song. He is talking about a subject that you are not allowed to talk about, and saying things about immigration that you are not allowed to say.

I wouldn't be surprised if the album never sees the light of day.

I think you think that because Moz clearly is voraciously anti-racist to his core - he couldn't possibly be against multiculturalism. Just consider the possibility that someone can be both.

No, Gash - he only said that it wouldn't work if problems were ignored & he missed London before it became rich & trendy.

He is not against multiculturalism.

& it is not a "dog whistle". There isn't a single lyric you can relate to race, religion or immigration. You're going to have to look elsewhere.

This is his last word on the subject:

for every shade and persuasion … we shall always be alongside each other - everyone's culture of value; no more fashionable outrage; cows are friends to humans - don't kill them...
- Morrissey, May 2019

I am not an activist, I have never voted for a political party, I do not belong to any political party... I do not believe the most important thing about a person is the colour of their skin.
- Morrissey, June 2019

I still haven’t ever voted for a political party in my entire life. I haven’t ever belonged to a political party.. I’ve never been on a political rally and I’ve never given a political speech so my apparent position as a political voice is... nonexistent.
- Morrissey, July 2021
 

gashonthenail

Well-Known Member
No, Gash - he only said that it wouldn't work if problems were ignored & he missed London before it became rich & trendy.

He is not against multiculturalism.

& it is not a "dog whistle". There isn't a single lyric you can relate to race, religion or immigration. You're going to have to look elsewhere.

This is his last word on the subject:

for every shade and persuasion … we shall always be alongside each other - everyone's culture of value; no more fashionable outrage; cows are friends to humans - don't kill them...
- Morrissey, May 2019

I am not an activist, I have never voted for a political party, I do not belong to any political party... I do not believe the most important thing about a person is the colour of their skin.
- Morrissey, June 2019

I still haven’t ever voted for a political party in my entire life. I haven’t ever belonged to a political party.. I’ve never been on a political rally and I’ve never given a political speech so my apparent position as a political voice is... nonexistent.
- Morrissey, July 2021

You really are delusional.
 

Malarkey

Well-Known Member
You really are delusional.

He sued two publications for suggesting he was against immigration.

He clearly stated that he thought AMW was being lied about.

He hated Bush, May & Trump - who had strict immigration policies.

He has never called for immigration to be stopped or reversed.

When the AMW scandal hit he was confused, upset & stopped talking about it.

He wrote a song about terrorism with literally no references to the location or the identities of the terrorist or the victims.
 

gashonthenail

Well-Known Member
He sued two publications for suggesting he was against immigration.

He clearly stated that he thought AMW was being lied about.

He hated Bush, May & Trump - who had strict immigration policies.

He has never called for immigration to be stopped or reversed.

When the AMW scandal hit he was confused, upset & stopped talking about it.

He wrote a song about terrorism with literally no references to the location or the identities of the terrorist or the victims.

Not correct. It's not defamation to print that someone is against immigration. That's just having a point of view. That would never reach the threshold for defamation.

He sued because they accused him of being racist. That is a very different matter.
 

Malarkey

Well-Known Member
Not correct. It's not defamation to print that someone is against immigration. That's just having a point of view. That would never reach the threshold for defamation.

He sued because they accused him of being racist. That is a very different matter.

He sued because they said he was against immigration.

This is from the NME, December 2007. And this is the most damning edit they thought they could get away with.

I gather you were unhappy with how some of your comments came across.

That’s not entirely true. I just think it could be construed that the reason I wouldn’t wish to live in England is the immigration explosion. And that’s not true at all. I am actually extremely worldly and there are other reasons why I would find England very difficult, such as the expense and the pressure. And certain things do worry me. In my view the face of Britain is not Gordon Brown or David Cameron, but Jean Charles de Menezes. His story, I find shocking, absolutely. It was termed an accident, but you don’t shoot someone seven times in the head, by accident. The people who control these investigations are always in on the game, and everybody associated with the murder was exonerated or promoted, which is shocking.

Ok, but did you think back over anything you said and think, ‘I don’t mean that’?

I feel that… the racism slur is dead wood, isn’t it? And in my life my favourite actor is an Israeli, Lior Ashkenazi, and my favourite singer was born in Iraq and now lives in Egypt. So, I’m not part of Little Britain. And by that I don’t mean the show, obviously.
 
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gashonthenail

Well-Known Member
He sued because they said he was against immigration.

This is from the NME, December 2007. And this is the most damning edit they thought they could get away with.

I gather you were unhappy with how some of your comments came across.

That’s not entirely true. I just think it could be construed that the reason I wouldn’t wish to live in England is the immigration explosion. And that’s not true at all. I am actually extremely worldly and there are other reasons why I would find England very difficult., such as the expense and the pressure. And certain things do worry me. In my view the face of Britain is not Gordon Brown or David Cameron, but Jean Charles de Menezes. His story, I find shocking, absolutely. It was termed an accident, but you don’t shoot someone seven times in the head, by accident. The people who control these investigations are always in on the game, and everybody associated with the murder was exonerated or promoted, which is shocking.

Ok, but did you think back over anything you said and think, ‘I don’t mean that’?

I feel that… the racism slur is dead wood, isn’t it? And in my life my favourite actor is an Israeli, Lior Ashkenazi, and my favourite singer was born in Iraq and now lives in Egypt. So, I’m not part of Little Britain. And by that I don’t mean the show, obviously.
"England is a memory now. The gates are flooded and anybody can have access to England and join in."

He sued because the NME suggested that by saying that, Moz was a racist and a hypocrite, being the son of immigrants himself.

It's not defamatory to state that someone is for or against immigration.
 

Gregor Samsa

I straighten up, and my position is one of hope.
"England is a memory now. The gates are flooded and anybody can have access to England and join in."

He sued because the NME suggested that by saying that, Moz was a racist and a hypocrite, being the son of immigrants himself.

It's not defamatory to state that someone is for or against immigration.
Did he stand by that quote or was it part of the reason he sued? Was he misquoted? Feel free to answer, ye who knoweth.
 

Malarkey

Well-Known Member
"England is a memory now. The gates are flooded and anybody can have access to England and join in."

He sued because the NME suggested that by saying that, Moz was a racist and a hypocrite, being the son of immigrants himself.

It's not defamatory to state that someone is for or against immigration.

His complaint is that they're saying he's against immigration.

He's not against immigration.

He was just saying things had changed - & in the 00s London & other big cities gentrified very quickly.

All you've done is rip out a melodramatic phrase - this is the first conversation & he admits it's nice & says he's not saying it's terrible.

And keep in mind - this is the NME's edit.

You live in Italy now? Would you ever consider moving back to Britain?

Britain’s a terribly negative place. And it hammers people down and it pulls you back and it prevents you. Also, with the issue of immigration. It’s very difficult because, although I don’t have anything against people from other countries, the higher the influx into England the more the British identity disappears. So, the price is enormous. If you travel to Germany, it’s still absolutely Germany. If you travel to Sweden, it still has a Swedish identity. But travel to England and you have no idea where you are.


Why does it bother you?

It matters because the British identity is very attractive. I grew up with it, and I find it quaint and very amusing. But England is a memory now. Other countries have held onto their identity, yet it seems to me, England was thrown away.

Isn’t immigration enriching the British identity, rather than diluting it?

It does in a way, and it’s nice in a way. But you have to say goodbye to the Britain you once knew.

That’s just the world changing.

But the change in England is so rapid compared to the change in any other country. If you walk through Knightsbridge on any bland day of the week you won’t hear an English accent. You’ll hear every accent under the sun apart from the British accent.

That’s not true, you sound like a Tory.

Mmmmmm. I understand, because I would like the freedom to go around the world and be anywhere. So you have to allow others the same freedom, really. So I’m not sitting here saying it’s a terrible thing. I’m saying it’s a reality and to many people it’s shocking.
 

BrokenFrame

Well-Known Member
His complaint is that they're saying he's against immigration.

He's not against immigration.

He was just saying things had changed - & in the 00s London & other big cities gentrified very quickly.

All you've done is rip out a melodramatic phrase - this is the first conversation & he admits it's nice & says he's not saying it's terrible.

And keep in mind - this is the NME's edit.

You live in Italy now? Would you ever consider moving back to Britain?

Britain’s a terribly negative place. And it hammers people down and it pulls you back and it prevents you. Also, with the issue of immigration. It’s very difficult because, although I don’t have anything against people from other countries, the higher the influx into England the more the British identity disappears. So, the price is enormous. If you travel to Germany, it’s still absolutely Germany. If you travel to Sweden, it still has a Swedish identity. But travel to England and you have no idea where you are.


Why does it bother you?

It matters because the British identity is very attractive. I grew up with it, and I find it quaint and very amusing. But England is a memory now. Other countries have held onto their identity, yet it seems to me, England was thrown away.

Isn’t immigration enriching the British identity, rather than diluting it?

It does in a way, and it’s nice in a way. But you have to say goodbye to the Britain you once knew.

That’s just the world changing.

But the change in England is so rapid compared to the change in any other country. If you walk through Knightsbridge on any bland day of the week you won’t hear an English accent. You’ll hear every accent under the sun apart from the British accent.

That’s not true, you sound like a Tory.

Mmmmmm. I understand, because I would like the freedom to go around the world and be anywhere. So you have to allow others the same freedom, really. So I’m not sitting here saying it’s a terrible thing. I’m saying it’s a reality and to many people it’s shocking.
It seems to bother Morrissey that he's misunderstood, so why does he make these dramatic statements? Maybe to make himself stand out? He must know people will take what he says at face value and that he cant have it both ways.
 

gashonthenail

Well-Known Member
It seems to bother Morrissey that he's misunderstood, so why does he make these dramatic statements? Maybe to make himself stand out? He must know people will take what he says at face value and that he cant have it both ways.

Fair point. Perhaps he is just of the opinion that immigration is both good and bad at the same time. There are some great things about immigration. And there are some terrible things. And he is just honest enough to say that.
The less charitable analysis is that it is all just a pose to create an effect. That is what Damon Albarn seemed to suggest in an interview a while back.
 

Malarkey

Well-Known Member
It seems to bother Morrissey that he's misunderstood, so why does he make these dramatic statements? Maybe to make himself stand out? He must know people will take what he says at face value and that he cant have it both ways.

I don't think he does know why they've misunderstood him & puts it down to personal malice. He's bad at picking up social cues & even when he's being interviewed by Sam they misunderstand each other.

A good journalist should try to understand the person they're interviewing. But, we have a lot of trash journalism.
 

BrokenFrame

Well-Known Member
I don't think he does know why they've misunderstood him & puts it down to personal malice. He's bad at picking up social cues & even when he's being interviewed by Sam they misunderstand each other.

A good journalist should try to understand the person they're interviewing. But, we have a lot of trash journalism.
as an autistic person, I can relate to that. Thanks for sharing.
 

Ketamine Sun

Now, today, tomorrow and always
It seems to bother Morrissey that he's misunderstood, so why does he make these dramatic statements?
He just naturally speaks his mind, it is others that judge and call his expressions ‘dramatic statements’.
Maybe to make himself stand out?
Anyone that has something interesting to say, and usually that will clash with the general held opinions, will stand out. It is not a choice one makes, unless they go through life in silence.
He must know people will take what he says at face value and that he cant have it both ways.

Should a person remain silent because other people are ignorant and will only see and take things at face value? I don’t think so.

Morrissey does like to complain though.
 

BrokenFrame

Well-Known Member
He just naturally speaks his mind, it is others that judge and call his expressions ‘dramatic statements’.

Anyone that has something interesting to say, and usually that will clash with the general held opinions, will stand out. It is not a choice one makes, unless they go through life in silence.


Should a person remain silent because other people are ignorant and will only see and take things at face value? I don’t think so.

Morrissey does like to complain though.
I think the problem is the person who introduced me to morrissey gave an interpretation of Morrissey that stuck with me.....that he using controversy on purpose whenever he needed publicity for a record etc. I'm willing to admit I could have been wrong.
 

gashonthenail

Well-Known Member
Did he stand by that quote or was it part of the reason he sued? Was he misquoted? Feel free to answer, ye who knoweth.

He certainly did say that his words in the interview had been twisted by the NME to paint him as racist and xenophobic. But I think the argument centred on what the NME inferred from what he had said about immigration, rather than what he had actually said.
And that is always the issue, isn't it? What should we infer from some of his comments on the subject? What should we infer from his liking of AMW? Or his comment that Tommy Robinson has been badly treated? Or his advice to read Douglas Murray's The Strange Death of Europe?
The list goes on and on.
What I infer is that he takes a critical stance on immigration, viewing it as both good and bad for society. And that he believes it is not racist to think so.
 

BrokenFrame

Well-Known Member
He certainly did say that his words in the interview had been twisted by the NME to paint him as racist and xenophobic. But I think the argument centred on what the NME inferred from what he had said about immigration, rather than what he had actually said.
And that is always the issue, isn't it? What should we infer from some of his comments on the subject? What should we infer from his liking of AMW? Or his comment that Tommy Robinson has been badly treated? Or his advice to read Douglas Murray's The Strange Death of Europe?
The list goes on and on.
What I infer is that he takes a critical stance on immigration, viewing it as both good and bad for society. And that he believes it is not racist to think so.
I agree with moz that it's not racist. Everything comes at a price.
 

Ketamine Sun

Now, today, tomorrow and always
I think the problem is the person who introduced me to morrissey gave an interpretation of Morrissey that stuck with me.....that he using controversy on purpose whenever he needed publicity for a record etc. I'm willing to admit I could have been wrong.

Was the person’s interpretation/opinion of Morrissey wrong?

And why does their opinion matter?


Is your opinion of Morrissey wrong, or is the opinion you adopted from this person wrong?

How do you feel just after you pushed play?
 

Malarkey

Well-Known Member
He certainly did say that his words in the interview had been twisted by the NME to paint him as racist and xenophobic. But I think the argument centred on what the NME inferred from what he had said about immigration, rather than what he had actually said.
And that is always the issue, isn't it? What should we infer from some of his comments on the subject? What should we infer from his liking of AMW? Or his comment that Tommy Robinson has been badly treated? Or his advice to read Douglas Murray's The Strange Death of Europe?
The list goes on and on.
What I infer is that he takes a critical stance on immigration, viewing it as both good and bad for society. And that he believes it is not racist to think so.

The list doesn't go on.

The press viciously attacked him for mild remarks about immigration & for mentioning halal slaughter. AMW was saying she'd been smeared. Douglas's stupid book seemed to provide an explanation about why he was being attacked. Tommy was working with AMW.

He ditched AMW after Pingate & he only ever mentioned Tommy & Douglas once.
 
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