Independent: "Has Morrissey ruined The Smiths?" by Sean Smith (May 13, 2022)

smiths copy 2.jpg

Has Morrissey ruined The Smiths? - The Independent

The ‘Oswald Mosley’ of pop is martyring himself on a cross of his own making, but what does that mean for the legacy of the band that started Morrissey off, asks Sean Smith.


Long, critical discussion piece with usual tropes.
Gated article, but where there's a will...
Read in full:

Regards,
FWD.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
He hasn't done much lately........there isn't much to talk about.
You haven’t talked about any of his work for a lot longer than this quiet period. You only have one objective in this site and most people know that. Not a very successful one though.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Sort of, yes. Not that Anne Marie Waters fits this mold, but as I said: I would take anyone, left or right, no matter how extreme or deranged, if mandatory veganism was in their platform. I don't care if they were herding obstinate and unrepentant eaters of meat into gas chambers. I would load the Zyklon B capsules myself if they required it of me. I know that seems bad, but we are (hypothetically) talking about the suffering & torture of innocent animals against the swift culling of people who would be willing to martyr themselves for the right to torture animals for food. My primary criticism of Anne Marie Waters is that she does not focus enough on animals. Maybe that's why Morrissey doesn't seem as interested so much anymore.



I do think she is justified in her abhorrence of Islam, but I also said that her intense focus on Islam has blinded her to the barbarism inherent in the other Hebrew religions. Islam is nevertheless the worst offender. It's not just halal slaughter. After all, the Jews have kosher slaughter. Islam, however, mandates animal sacrifice on the festival of Eid. Are you not aware of the practice of Qurban?



You can go to the 2.30 mark for the money shot. Is this the kind of cultural barbarism you want in your multicultural country? I could not care less about preserving "white European culture," but however depraved it is, you can at least say that it has not sunk to widespread animal sacrifice. There are many videos like this one on YouTube. Goats, cows, camels, sheep. Hundreds of thousands are ritually slaughtered every year. There used to be a video of a camel on Eid that escaped its bonds with its neck half cut, and ran off in that gruesome state, with a horde of Muslims chasing it and hollering. It was pandemonium. That's the one I was searching for, but it must have been taken down.

Most vegans at some point in their lives ate meat so you are supportive of the murder of meat eaters like yourself before they turn vegan.

Stupid logic.

Christianity has for century’s followed the traditions of eating fish every Friday and lamb on Easter Sunday. Do you also therefore wish death on all Christians?

The things you post about are not based on anything in the Quran but are local traditions etc. it isn’t the religion that is dictating these practices. Mohammad spoke about the benefits of a non meat diet and asked for a reduction in meat consumption and preached respect for all life. Religions dont make people do bad things, only people make people do bad things.

I have many Muslim friends but most of them are vegetarian and vegan and we regularly meet in a vegan restaurant. There are many vegan Muslim groups and those numbers are growing.

Teaching Muslims the benefits of plant based diets is the credible way to go as with any people of any denomination or non denomination but stating you would happily gas all meat eaters will never get you any converts neither I suspect a younger you when you did eat meat.

With that kind of stance it will always be a failed belief and the only living beings you indirectly harm with that kind of belief and statement is the animals you suggest you are trying to protect.
 

Stephen Hofmann

Well-Known Member
I'm not a member of any political party and my political views are as I already said more centre ground but my work means I am impartial to any specific party but people on both sides of the spectrum would find you an annoyance, but nothing more, but like a skin irritant.

Ok bud..........whatever.
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
Most vegans at some point in their lives ate meat so you are supportive of the murder of meat eaters like yourself before they turn vegan.

Stupid logic.

No, because I said "obstinate and unrepentant eaters of meat." I can assure you that in the days when I ate meat, I would have converted to veganism if I had been forced to do so under penalty of death. I imagine most people would. The obstinate and unrepentant would probably martyr themselves not for meat per se, but out of fidelity to a theology that says meat is permissible. "God gives us the permission to eat meat, bub, so if you want to go against the Lord, then you'll do it over my dead body!" Such people would likely number few.

Christianity has for century’s followed the traditions of eating fish every Friday and lamb on Easter Sunday. Do you also therefore wish death on all Christians?

No, but when did I say wished death on all Muslims, either? I would like for Christians and Muslims to undergo what the Christians, in their fancy Greek terminology, call metanoia—a change of heart. But after two thousand years of Christianity being in existence, and fourteen hundred for the Mohammedans, it is unrealistic to expect such a change to happen.

There are, as you say, vegetarian Christians and Muslims, but they are in the scant minority when viewed against the whole. Surely you will admit that your story about going out to vegan restaurants with your Muslim friends is anecdotal. It only tells us about your small enlightened social circle, not what the trend is globally. Here are the demographics of vegetarianism by country, and the Islamic world looks pretty pathetic.

1280px-VegetariansByCountry.svg.png


You say of vegan Muslims that "their numbers are growing," and I have no reason to doubt that, but it is happening on a minuscule scale. They are always going to be a tiny minority. It's doubtful that they would ever get to European numbers, which (depressingly) are high aughts, low teens. Europe is largely secular. The Muslim vegans, in the best case scenario, will probably only get to the lower numbers of the United States, where belief in an avatar of the same monstrous god as Islam's also persists. The interesting thing about this map are the darker blues for Mexico and Brazil. I always thought of Mexicans as lovers of carne. Could their vegetarian numbers have anything to do with the California Son? And I'm surprised Israel isn't more impressive. Strictly anecdotal, but a lot of the vegans and vegetarians I have known personally have been Jews (albeit secular Jews).

Teaching Muslims the benefits of plant based diets is the credible way to go as with any people of any denomination or non denomination but stating you would happily gas all meat eaters will never get you any converts neither I suspect a younger you when you did eat meat.

Please don't misquote. I didn't say I would "happily" gas them; I said I would do it if a vegan-fascist administration required it of me. If there is collateral damage in an effort to spare the animals, then I would accept that as a matter course. Anyway, this all pie-in-the-sky and theoretical. Initially I was responding to the person who insisted I'm the sock puppet of a racist anti-Semite meat- and dairy-eating user on here, and I was trying to say that I am neither right-wing nor left-, unless vegan-fascist is somehow right-wing.
 
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Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
I regret my responsibility in contributing to this thread getting so far off-topic. Has Morrissey ruined the Smiths? No. Morrissey is the sole bearer of the Smiths' flame anymore; Johnny Marr (last I listened to his solo material) was playing third-generation Ocean Colour Scene. I was listening to Morrissey's concert in Tel Aviv in 2012, from when he had been given the keys to the city. "Now that I have my key to the city, there's going to be some changes made around the town. No more doner kebabs. No more KFC. No more McDonald's." And then, in the spirit of "burn down the disco," he adds that there will also be "no more Madonna"—probably a reference to Tel Aviv being a homosexual Mecca and danceteria. Good old Morrissey. And then Jesse Tobias, whom I frequently criticize, plays "Meat Is Murder" arranged in an exquisite psychedelic dirge. Morrissey is all that remains of the Smiths' legacy.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
No, because I said "obstinate and unrepentant eaters of meat." I can assure you that in the days when I ate meat, I would have converted to veganism if I had been forced to do so under penalty of death. I imagine most people would. The obstinate and unrepentant would probably martyr themselves not for meat per se, but out of fidelity to a theology that says meat is permissible. "God gives us the permission to eat meat, bub, so if you want to go against the Lord, then you'll do it over my dead body!" Such people would likely number few.



No, but when did I say wished death on all Muslims, either? I would like for Christians and Muslims to undergo what the Christians, in their fancy Greek terminology, call metanoia—a change of heart. But after two thousand years of Christianity being in existence, and fourteen hundred for the Mohammedans, it is unrealistic to expect such a change to happen.

There are, as you say, vegetarian Christians and Muslims, but they are in the scant minority when viewed against the whole. Surely you will admit that your story about going out to vegan restaurants with your Muslim friends is anecdotal. It only tells us about your small enlightened social circle, not what the trend is globally. Here are the demographics of vegetarianism by country, and the Islamic world looks pretty pathetic.

1280px-VegetariansByCountry.svg.png


You say of vegan Muslims that "their numbers are growing," and I have no reason to doubt that, but it is happening on a minuscule scale. They are always going to be a tiny minority. It's doubtful that they would ever get to European numbers, which (depressingly) are high aughts, low teens. Europe is largely secular. The Muslim vegans, in the best case scenario, will probably only get to the lower numbers of the United States, where belief in an avatar of the same monstrous god as Islam's also persists. The interesting thing about this map are the darker blues for Mexico and Brazil. I always thought of Mexicans as lovers of carne. Could their vegetarian numbers have anything to do with the California Son? And I'm surprised Israel isn't more impressive. Strictly anecdotal, but a lot of the vegans and vegetarians I have known personally have been Jews (albeit secular Jews).



Please don't misquote. I didn't say I would "happily" gas them; I said I would do it if a vegan-fascist administration required it of me. If there is collateral damage in an effort to spare the animals, then I would accept that as a matter course. Anyway, this all pie-in-the-sky and theoretical. Initially I was responding to the person who insisted I'm the sock puppet of a racist anti-Semite meat- and dairy-eating user on here, and I was trying to say that I am neither right-wing nor left-, unless vegan-fascist is somehow right-wing.
You still are saying the reason parts of the map you have posted don't have a high vegetarian demographic is because of Islam.

That is very simplistic. There are far more far reaching reasons for people's choice of diet and the main reasons globally are actually wealth/poverty and climate and farming methods which aren't necessarily related to the religion they follow.


For example the main reason there are large areas on your map in Mexico have laughably nothing to do with Morrissey (had to pick myself of the floor at that one). It is more to do with poverty and culture. There are large swathes of poverty in that country and not a massive affordable meat industry. Beans are a staple and cheap.

Similarly in Africa there are significant climate challenges in the growing of vegetables along with poverty that pushes most of the coastal countries of Africa to mainly have a fish based diet and culturally villages and towns will have livestock as their source of food.

There is no religion on the planet that tells people they can eat meat as you seem to suggest. Islam doesn't tell people it should eat meat, it is far more to do with local traditions, historic cultures and geographical considerations as mentioned above. Most of those countries don't have large areas of arable land on which to grow crops and those that do have issues with said land being bought up by Western large energy companies who are planing for a biofuel future. They don't have the money or the infrastructure to start an industrial scale crop farming business. It is not because they go to a mosque.

You didn't respond to my points about veganfacism and how you think that may appeal to meat eaters to help them move to a plant based diet. It won't. You are talking very hypothetically. There will never be a country anywhere that forces people to stop eating meat and there will never be a government that would ever be willing to gas meat eaters who refused. Having views like this are extremist and en par with the tiny minority of Islamic extremists who support death to infidels. It is the same thing, it is the killing of people because they don't follow your belief. That is totally far right and inhumane and totally insane and immoral. One wrong doesn't justify another. With this view you would never convert a single meat eater to veganism and these views are only preventing people from becoming vegan and therefore as I said before are only contributing factors to the animal deaths and cruelty if these views are blockers to moving to a more animal conscious world.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I regret my responsibility in contributing to this thread getting so far off-topic. Has Morrissey ruined the Smiths? No. Morrissey is the sole bearer of the Smiths' flame anymore; Johnny Marr (last I listened to his solo material) was playing third-generation Ocean Colour Scene. I was listening to Morrissey's concert in Tel Aviv in 2012, from when he had been given the keys to the city. "Now that I have my key to the city, there's going to be some changes made around the town. No more doner kebabs. No more KFC. No more McDonald's." And then, in the spirit of "burn down the disco," he adds that there will also be "no more Madonna"—probably a reference to Tel Aviv being a homosexual Mecca and danceteria. Good old Morrissey. And then Jesse Tobias, whom I frequently criticize, plays "Meat Is Murder" arranged in an exquisite psychedelic dirge. Morrissey is all that remains of the Smiths' legacy.

"And then, in the spirit of "burn down the disco," he adds that there will also be "no more Madonna"—probably a reference to Tel Aviv being a homosexual Mecca and danceteria. Good old Morrissey"

WTF. You do realise that not only gay men listen to Madonna?

Johnny Marr plays Smiths songs all the time on stage and as the song writer he most certainly remains part of The Smiths legacy. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
"And then, in the spirit of "burn down the disco," he adds that there will also be "no more Madonna"—probably a reference to Tel Aviv being a homosexual Mecca and danceteria. Good old Morrissey"

WTF. You do realise that not only gay men listen to Madonna?

Yes, of course. There are also heterosexual men who listen to Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, and Bette Midler. Nevertheless, all of these singers also have a pronounced and devoted following among homosexual males. Why are you taking what is likely a reference to Madonna's status a a gay icon so legalistically? Do you seriously think he wasn't referring to that?

Johnny Marr plays Smiths songs all the time on stage and as the song writer he most certainly remains part of The Smiths legacy. It would be ridiculous to think otherwise.

He does indeed play the songs, but without the voice, it doesn't sound right. It remains a cover version. I will concede that no one can quite play the guitar and get the same delicious tones out of the instrument as the young Johnny Marr could, but all Morrissey needs is a mere similitude of that for a Smiths song to resurrect, post-Smiths.

You still are saying the reason parts of the map you have posted don't have a high vegetarian demographic is because of Islam.

That is very simplistic. There are far more far reaching reasons for people's choice of diet and the main reasons globally are actually wealth/poverty and climate and farming methods which aren't necessarily related to the religion they follow.

This is incorrect. It is true that poverty and weather play a part in one's diet, but so does ideology, and this correlates: the countries with the highest rates of vegetarianism are secular, Buddhist, and Hindu. The United States, contrariwise, is incredibly wealthy and blessed with a vast amount of arable land, but its Christian religiosity rate is much greater than in places like Scandinavia, the UK, and central Europe, which must account for its lower rate of vegetariaism.

As for Mexico, I think you may be underestimating Morrissey's influence there. Other countries are similarly impoverished and have equal access to legumes, but they are not as vegetarian. Mexico's dark blue is anomalous.

There will never be a country anywhere that forces people to stop eating meat and there will never be a government that would ever be willing to gas meat eaters who refused. Having views like this are extremist and en par with the tiny minority of Islamic extremists who support death to infidels.

I've already admitted that such a government could never exist. How could a military possibly be conscripted to enforce its policies if vegans are only one or two percentage points of the population? As I said, eaters of meat have nothing to fear from my (admitted) extremism. I have said multiple times that these politics are purely pie-in-the-sky. But if, on paper, vegan fascism is considered a right-wing view, then okay. I guess I am right-wing. But I'll tell you, it is very lonely being a vegan out here on the right wing, what with all the smug, macho, racist, vegan-despising, meat- and dairy-fed anti-Semitic traditionalist Christians crowding up the place. I feel like a lamb at a convention of wolves.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Yes, of course. There are also heterosexual men who listen to Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, and Bette Midler. Nevertheless, all of these singers also have a pronounced and devoted following among homosexual males. Why are you taking what is likely a reference to Madonna's status a a gay icon so legalistically? Do you seriously think he wasn't referring to that?



He does indeed play the songs, but without the voice, it doesn't sound right. It remains a cover version. I will concede that no one can quite play the guitar and get the same delicious tones out of the instrument as the young Johnny Marr could, but all Morrissey needs is a mere similitude of that for a Smiths song to resurrect, post-Smiths.



This is incorrect. It is true that poverty and weather play a part in one's diet, but so does ideology, and this correlates: the countries with the highest rates of vegetarianism are secular, Buddhist, and Hindu. The United States, contrariwise, is incredibly wealthy and blessed with a vast amount of arable land, but its Christian religiosity rate is much greater than in places like Scandinavia, the UK, and central Europe, which must account for its lower rate of vegetariaism.

As for Mexico, I think you may be underestimating Morrissey's influence there. Other countries are similarly impoverished and have equal access to legumes, but they are not as vegetarian. Mexico's dark blue is anomalous.



I've already admitted that such a government could never exist. How could a military possibly be conscripted to enforce its policies if vegans are only one or two percentage points of the population? As I said, eaters of meat have nothing to fear from my (admitted) extremism. I have said multiple times that these politics are purely pie-in-the-sky. But if, on paper, vegan fascism is considered a right-wing view, then okay. I guess I am right-wing. But I'll tell you, it is very lonely being a vegan out here on the right wing, what with all the smug, macho, racist, vegan-despising, meat- and dairy-fed anti-Semitic traditionalist Christians crowding up the place. I feel like a lamb at a convention of wolves.
If you think Morrissey has any influence on the diet in poor rural areas of Mexico then you are pie in the sky with that one too.

You are still simplifying the whole poverty /climate/ideology thing. There is no way the African continent could grow enough legumes or vegetables to feed the population when most of the year they have a drought. They neither have the climate for it nor the infrastructure to distribute it or the money to even try.

Huge swathes of that map are dependent on a 100% fish based diet and that has nothing to do with their religion.

Large parts of South America also have similar factors. Huge fish based diets and no industrial scale crops or the climate and infrastructure, money for it.

Food demographics are complex and essentially there isn't enough food to go round and this will get progressively worse as the years go by when birth rates in many poor countries continue to rise exponentially. There will become a significant land problem, infrastructure problem, water problem and energy problem. Energy being a major key issue because with energy problems you can't build the infrastructure to serve an industrial scale crop system and the countries that do have the land just don't have the money to fund it and they are selling large areas of their land off to energy companies for growing crops purely for the biofuels industry, not for food.

It isn't as simple as forcing religions to force their followers to move to a plant based diet.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Yes, of course. There are also heterosexual men who listen to Judy Garland, Barbra Streisand, and Bette Midler. Nevertheless, all of these singers also have a pronounced and devoted following among homosexual males. Why are you taking what is likely a reference to Madonna's status a a gay icon so legalistically? Do you seriously think he wasn't referring to that?



He does indeed play the songs, but without the voice, it doesn't sound right. It remains a cover version. I will concede that no one can quite play the guitar and get the same delicious tones out of the instrument as the young Johnny Marr could, but all Morrissey needs is a mere similitude of that for a Smiths song to resurrect, post-Smiths.



This is incorrect. It is true that poverty and weather play a part in one's diet, but so does ideology, and this correlates: the countries with the highest rates of vegetarianism are secular, Buddhist, and Hindu. The United States, contrariwise, is incredibly wealthy and blessed with a vast amount of arable land, but its Christian religiosity rate is much greater than in places like Scandinavia, the UK, and central Europe, which must account for its lower rate of vegetariaism.

As for Mexico, I think you may be underestimating Morrissey's influence there. Other countries are similarly impoverished and have equal access to legumes, but they are not as vegetarian. Mexico's dark blue is anomalous.



I've already admitted that such a government could never exist. How could a military possibly be conscripted to enforce its policies if vegans are only one or two percentage points of the population? As I said, eaters of meat have nothing to fear from my (admitted) extremism. I have said multiple times that these politics are purely pie-in-the-sky. But if, on paper, vegan fascism is considered a right-wing view, then okay. I guess I am right-wing. But I'll tell you, it is very lonely being a vegan out here on the right wing, what with all the smug, macho, racist, vegan-despising, meat- and dairy-fed anti-Semitic traditionalist Christians crowding up the place. I feel like a lamb at a convention of wolves.
I haven't heard a Madonna track in any gay club I have been to in the past 5 years but stereotypes are great and maybe Tel Aviv just plays nothing but madonna.
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
You are still simplifying the whole poverty /climate/ideology thing. There is no way the African continent could grow enough legumes or vegetables to feed the population when most of the year they have a drought. They neither have the climate for it nor the infrastructure to distribute it or the money to even try.

Huge swathes of that map are dependent on a 100% fish based diet and that has nothing to do with their religion.

Large parts of South America also have similar factors. Huge fish based diets and no industrial scale crops or the climate and infrastructure, money for it.

Food demographics are complex and essentially there isn't enough food to go round and this will get progressively worse as the years go by when birth rates in many poor countries continue to rise exponentially. There will become a significant land problem, infrastructure problem, water problem and energy problem. Energy being a major key issue because with energy problems you can't build the infrastructure to serve an industrial scale crop system and the countries that do have the land just don't have the money to fund it and they are selling large areas of their land off to energy companies for growing crops purely for the biofuels industry, not for food.

It isn't as simple as forcing religions to force their followers to move to a plant based diet.

I never said it was simply a matter of religion. I have already conceded that wealth and climate are factors. But religion is a factor as well. Ideologies and theologies matter. If a person believes that the soul of their departed grandmother might reside in a chicken, or that cows are sacred to Lord Vishnu or, conversely, that Allah gave animals over to humans for food, these things will likely have some effect on what they consume. Are you somehow saying that the dietary laws of the world’s religions have no significant correlation to what people eat?

You didn’t respond to the question of why the wealthy and grain-producing U.S., which is more infused with Christian beliefs, is notably less vegetarian than largely secular Europe.
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
I haven't heard a Madonna track in any gay club I have been to in the past 5 years but stereotypes are great and maybe Tel Aviv just plays nothing but madonna.

Madonna is a gay icon. Tel Aviv is notorious as a gay-friendly city. That’s probably what Morrissey was referring to. No need to get all Pharisaical about it.
 
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Alabaster

Guest
Like several of these articles, it says that he endorsed Britain First (and not For Britain).
I've never looked them up (and I don't want to Google them) but I believe Britain First are a serious far-right party, unlike For Britain who are more like UKIP. Even if M won't retract his endorsement of For Britain, he really should clarify that he's never had anything to do with Britain First, and force the journalist into giving an apology. Shoddy writing.
You’re wrong. For Britain are a far-right fringe party. “Tommy Robinson” is a member for God’s sake. Morrissey’s endorsement of For Britain is extremely disappointing and taints The Smiths back catalogue for many people whether you like it nor not.

 

jmb066

New Member
Unless Morrissey is halting the deluxe editions, however I believe he pushed of the QID set to be released. Never, would he hurt the legacy. I wish the other 3 albums would of received the same deluxe treatment, the download live songs were also a nice extra. We know there is plenty in the vaults, get it released on these anniversary dates please.
 

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