Independent: "Has Morrissey ruined The Smiths?" by Sean Smith (May 13, 2022)

smiths copy 2.jpg

Has Morrissey ruined The Smiths? - The Independent

The ‘Oswald Mosley’ of pop is martyring himself on a cross of his own making, but what does that mean for the legacy of the band that started Morrissey off, asks Sean Smith.


Long, critical discussion piece with usual tropes.
Gated article, but where there's a will...
Read in full:

Regards,
FWD.
 
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Stephen Hofmann

Well-Known Member
I'm not on the left. My childhood and family history is one on the left from a mining heritage but I moved more centre a long time ago.

I never have used the word Nazi on here at all and have never called you one. so again more nonsensical snippets of drivel

You think everyone who is against your racist views is on the left. Another example of your lack of logic and brain power.

What are you then? A new conservative?
 

Stephen Hofmann

Well-Known Member
Ingrid Carlqvist is a she. According to "HOPE not hate," which seems to be something of a cottage industry accusing its ideological enemies of Nazism at every turn, the evidence for Ingrid Carlqvist's Holocaust denial amounts to a single Facebook post and a single tweet. And the content of these two remarks indicate Holocaust skepticism, not Holocaust denial. (To her credit, she is a smoker). Is Anne-Marie Waters expected to rigorously scroll through the entire social media history of everyone she ever invites to a function? You are really reaching. There is nothing in this to suggest that Waters herself holds to or even tacitly endorses Holocaust denial. All of these guilt-by-association instances so far have been a desperate connecting of unrelated dots.

I am opposed to Holocaust denial, but at the same time I'm cautious of it being imputed to people, because the motive is often impure. Norman Finkelstein routinely gets accused of being a Holocaust denier when he is anything but, having had parents who survived the Warsaw ghetto, Majdanek, and Auschwitz.

The fact that this guy didn't even know Ingrid C was a woman says everything about his lack of knowledge.
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
Amongst Carlqvist's many Holocaust related statements:
“You are aware that many of the [Holocaust] survivors have faked their stories?”

Yes, that was included in the HOPE not hate article I found. I didn't know who Ingrid Carlqvist was. I think I searched for "ingrid+carlqvist+holocaust" and it was one of the first results. That article was written in 2017, and it cited a single Facebook post and a single tweet. It said that Carlqvist did not have a prior history of anti-Semitism, but that she had recently begun tending towards it. When did Anne Marie Waters invite Ingrid Carlqvist to speak? To make your case, I think you would need to show that Carlqvist was well-known enough for espousing Holocaust denial that Waters would have no excuse for not knowing.

But we are going around in circles. I have already conceded that Waters should be more circumspect in who she associates with, lest she be found guilty by over-association. But being guilty by association is a different thing from being guilty of anti-Semitism. She is not that. She is nearly the opposite: either a philo-Semite or a pro-Zionist. As I've said, that is factual and on record. You are just connecting dots. There are other options to explain her associations.

1. She is so monomaniacally anti-Islam that she doesn't bother to vet her fellow counter-Jihadists for anti-Semitism.

2. She knows of their anti-Semitism, but doesn't care in the interest of a more pressing & immediate common cause, just as they are aware of her own pro-Zionism. Both of them might consider the other side to be useful idiots, and intend to ditch them later.

It's probably the latter, which might be a miscalculation on her part. It's like Douglas Murray foolishly wanting the Anglican Church to be more traditional, or the otherwise shrewd Michel Onfray criticizing Pope Francis for abrogating the Latin Mass. They're overconfident, in nestling up to the far right, that they don't have to worry about the dangerous elements on that side winning out. But if they ever did win out, then woe to them: Murray the homosexual would end up doing hard labor in Reading Gaol, the sort of labor that eventually killed Wilde, and Onfray the atheist would find out how Jehanne D'Arc felt, as the flames rose to her Roman nose.
 
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D

Deleted member 29417

Guest
Don't calumniate. I am not that user. I have recently started participating on this forum after having been away from it for a while, but I am not a new member. I have been on here for several years and overlapped with Reel Fountain. I think we even had some interactions, so if your theory is true, then that was me talking to myself. Also, I would never shorten the title of one of my favorite Smiths songs so crudely.

I believe that person was a female living the UK. I am a male living in the American South. That person was obsessed with race, whereas as I doubt you will find much in my posting history that has to do with race. To the extent that I even care about race, I think white culture is at a very low ebb in its history and I am not particularly interested in preserving what we've got. Right-wing blather about "saving the West" is lost on me. I would not mind it if Mexico were to somehow miraculously accomplish a Reconquista of the American Southwest and even seized the Southeast as well, just for spite. I would welcome my Latino overlords. Maybe they would be vegan. I would like to be ruled by anyone, right or left, however extreme or deranged, if veganism is prominent in their platform. If memory serves, Reel Fountain was not vegan. I think my pet topics here over the years have probably been: animals, religion, Morrissey's abiding genius, his advocacy for animals, and the unfortunate decline of his music in the Chiccarelli/Manzur era.

I do like Anne Marie Waters (I just now noticed that I have been erroneously hyphenating her name. Forgive me, Mme. Waters). I would never have heard of her, most likely, had it not been for Morrissey's mentions. I have listened to her on some podcasts and watched some of her debates. I think she's whip-smart and charismatic. I can see why Morrissey likes (or liked) her. But then, some people seem to find her to be a repulsive and hateful ghoul, so there's no accounting for taste.

It's not convincing when you post a saga.

I guess Ket knows who you are - but you're doing Reel's genteel far right thing & I expect you might spiral into gibbering hatred or maybe just gibbering.
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
It's not convincing when you post a saga.

I guess Ket knows who you are - but you're doing Reel's genteel far right thing & I expect you might spiral into gibbering hatred or maybe just gibbering.

I didn't expect an apology and retraction, and lo, I did not get one. Tell me where my views align with hers. When she was posting here, I tended to skip over her posts because they were usually on a tired loop of complaining about Islamic grooming gangs and the plight of white people in England and without, if I remember correctly, any concern for animals. I am not far right, but I am pleased to come across as genteel. It takes strength to be gentle and kind.
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
I guess if I have a political affiliation, it would be what is pejoratively termed "veganazi"—that is, politically desirous for the authoritarian enforcement of a vegan diet on the entire populace. I don't know how a military sufficient to the task could ever be conscripted (vegans are estimated at a mere one percent of the population), so realistically speaking, eaters of meat need not fear this position (unless the veganazi regime were to threaten its own citizens with nukes. Hmm).

I do not know if this position is left or right, though I understand "ecofascists," existing along similar lines, are generally classed on the left. Certainly the Greens are left. I am registered a Green, though I do not usually vote, and the Greens are meekly vegan, if even that.
 
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A

Anonymous

Guest
Again it’s not about what name. Well, I’ve already said all I need to say about it in my last two posts at this time.

Carry on, if this kind of thing satisfies you.
Thanks, it is a welcome break from more taxing things but don't worry I will be gone shortly as I have a very long flight very soon and then will be working for a while where internet usage like this won't be realistic.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Don't calumniate. I am not that user. I have recently started participating on this forum after having been away from it for a while, but I am not a new member. I have been on here for several years and overlapped with Reel Fountain. I think we even had some interactions, so if your theory is true, then that was me talking to myself. Also, I would never shorten the title of one of my favorite Smiths songs so crudely.

I believe that person was a female living the UK. I am a male living in the American South. That person was obsessed with race, whereas as I doubt you will find much in my posting history that has to do with race. To the extent that I even care about race, I think white culture is at a very low ebb in its history and I am not particularly interested in preserving what we've got. Right-wing blather about "saving the West" is lost on me. I would not mind it if Mexico were to somehow miraculously accomplish a Reconquista of the American Southwest and even seized the Southeast as well, just for spite. I would welcome my Latino overlords. Maybe they would be vegan. I would like to be ruled by anyone, right or left, however extreme or deranged, if veganism is prominent in their platform. If memory serves, Reel Fountain was not vegan. I think my pet topics here over the years have probably been: animals, religion, Morrissey's abiding genius, his advocacy for animals, and the unfortunate decline of his music in the Chiccarelli/Manzur era.

I do like Anne Marie Waters (I just now noticed that I have been erroneously hyphenating her name. Forgive me, Mme. Waters). I would never have heard of her, most likely, had it not been for Morrissey's mentions. I have listened to her on some podcasts and watched some of her debates. I think she's whip-smart and charismatic. I can see why Morrissey likes (or liked) her. But then, some people seem to find her to be a repulsive and hateful ghoul, so there's no accounting for taste.
"a repulsive and hateful ghoul"

well I will agree with that. Anyone who calls for birth control of particular demographics just because she doesn't like them certainly fits into the hate sector and anyone who walks hand in hand with Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins and speaks at Generation Identity meetings and personally invites a member of a white supremacy group with well known Holocaust revisionist/skepticism views certainly wins the repulsive vote.

But she's a vegan so that's ok then
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Because I've been a fan since 1986?

But you don't really contribute to anything related to the music or Morrissey's actual professional work and just seem interested in posting when someone talks about immigration or race or english culture (or your view of english culture).

I have also been too but since 1982
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Your research sucks. Generation Identity as the far-right? Really? Lolz
And are you again just going too post a short snippet that means nothing?

Do you have a problem focusing or writing anything literate or meaningful?

Generation Identity are absolutely far right. They have a stated objective to "ethnically cleanup europe". You can't get much more far right than that as a definition.

They have a deliberate policy of turning away from traditional far right discussions on genetics and race but instead they focus on culture and identity because they have discussed in meetings that they believe they won't get public support if they talk about genetics and race but their object is still the same.

Their main focus and belief is around spreading the far right conspiracy theory of The Great Replacement. The Great Replacement is a rebranding of the century-old ‘white genocide’ conspiracy theory, which alleges that white people are being deliberately erased through immigration and racial mixing.

The far right terrorist attacks in Norway, Christchurch and El Paso were carried out by people who have stated that they were influenced by The Great Replacement theory and the Christchurch attacker was giving regular donations directly to Generation Identity.

Anne Marie Waters has been one of their key speakers for a long time in highly secured meetings that have taken place in london hotels. In one of her speeches she said:

“The only reason that the mass migration into white Europe is happening on the scale that it’s happening is to disempower white people, to make us a minority and therefore unable to wield political power.”

At the same meeting where she was the main speaker a black member in the meeting asked Ben Jones (UK leader of Generation Identity) whether there would be a place for him in GI’s ideal society. Ben told him that a small number of “non-indigenous” people could live in the UK if they signed up to certain principles, although this would not be desirable.

Waters was criticised in the meeting though and was advised to stop focusing too much on religion and the Anti Islam angle and to start focusing on race in general.

Also in that Generation Identity meeting the Norwegian terrorist Anders Breivik was described as a “serious political thinker with a great many insights and some good practical ideas on strategy.”

Other speakers there were Thomas Roswell, a hideous individual who describes himself as a pagan neo nazi and has written a book of pagan stories for children and founder of the Frithgard Fellowship. I won't go into those people and their views but the info is out their if you are interested. His speech was supposed to be secret but it was recorded by members of Generation Identity and put on their drop box which was not secure so became available.

Also there was Colin Robertson, the Scottish far right Youtuber who states he is "pro-slavery" and has called for refugee boats to be torpedoed which isn't too far away from what Katie Hopkins has also said.

But sure Generation Identity are not far right.

Next snippet?
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
What are you then? A new conservative?
I'm not a member of any political party and my political views are as I already said more centre ground but my work means I am impartial to any specific party but people on both sides of the spectrum would find you an annoyance, but nothing more, but like a skin irritant.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The fact that this guy didn't even know Ingrid C was a woman says everything about his lack of knowledge.
it was a typo. I have seen most of her videos and interviews and I was at the For Britain conference where she was speaking but not really relevant. Is that all you have?

Your arguments are not really coming through too well.
 

Carlislebaz

Cock of the north
But you don't really contribute to anything related to the music or Morrissey's actual professional work and just seem interested in posting when someone talks about immigration or race or english culture (or your view of english culture).

I have also been too but since 1982
Hofmann hasn’t contributed anything positive on here for years.
He uses this site for his own vision of how the UK should be managed RE immigration, ECT.

A truly vulgar man who should elope with the other idiot racist from Canada. You’ll know who I mean, she works in the dollar store mopping up shit, and can’t keep a good meal Down as she to busy shoving her fingers down her big Gob.
Yes solo has Quite a few odd balls I’m afraid .... but it’s the Racist ones who sicken me the most, and it’s very sad to say that Hofmann is an educated man.
Some where along the line he will have some influence that could effect people’s lives who he dislikes
Due to their colour.

Remember Hofmann & co......

Every dog has its day .
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Yes, that was included in the HOPE not hate article I found. I didn't know who Ingrid Carlqvist was. I think I searched for "ingrid+carlqvist+holocaust" and it was one of the first results. That article was written in 2017, and it cited a single Facebook post and a single tweet. It said that Carlqvist did not have a prior history of anti-Semitism, but that she had recently begun tending towards it. When did Anne Marie Waters invite Ingrid Carlqvist to speak? To make your case, I think you would need to show that Carlqvist was well-known enough for espousing Holocaust denial that Waters would have no excuse for not knowing.

But we are going around in circles. I have already conceded that Waters should be more circumspect in who she associates with, lest she be found guilty by over-association. But being guilty by association is a different thing from being guilty of anti-Semitism. She is not that. She is nearly the opposite: either a philo-Semite or a pro-Zionist. As I've said, that is factual and on record. You are just connecting dots. There are other options to explain her associations.

1. She is so monomaniacally anti-Islam that she doesn't bother to vet her fellow counter-Jihadists for anti-Semitism.

2. She knows of their anti-Semitism, but doesn't care in the interest of a more pressing & immediate common cause, just as they are aware of her own pro-Zionism. Both of them might consider the other side to be useful idiots, and intend to ditch them later.

It's probably the latter, which might be a miscalculation on her part. It's like Douglas Murray foolishly wanting the Anglican Church to be more traditional, or the otherwise shrewd Michel Onfray criticizing Pope Francis for abrogating the Latin Mass. They're overconfident, in nestling up to the far right, that they don't have to worry about the dangerous elements on that side winning out. But if they ever did win out, then woe to them: Murray the homosexual would end up doing hard labor in Reading Gaol, the sort of labor that eventually killed Wilde, and Onfray the atheist would find out how Jehanne D'Arc felt, as the flames rose to her Roman nose.

We will just agree to differ on the Holocaust point. You bring up Hope Not Hate but there is far more information our there if you look with regard to Carlqvist's Holocaust views. Most people on the right were aware of those views prior to Waters inviting her to speak at her conference.

That aside, again, you speak as though she is justified in her anti Islam views and you only have an issue with the holocaust points. As I have said the speeches she has given which are well documented and the things she has stated she is in favour of such as birth control for Muslims and the planned white race replacement by Muslims is enough for most people to dislike her but you don't seem to be bothered by that and you have in one of your posts stated that Islam is abhorrent so I assume you also have similar far right Islamophobic views and probably misguided through the vegan angle and Halal as probably Morrissey is. Not all Muslims eat meat and the Allah for most part had a plant based diet. Dismissing a religion on the basis of a diet and thinking the likes of enforced birth control is ok because of it is a policy that is no different to the worst anti semitic policies of the last century. Different religion, same hate.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I guess if I have a political affiliation, it would be what is pejoratively termed "veganazi"—that is, politically desirous for the authoritarian enforcement of a vegan diet on the entire populace. I don't know how a military sufficient to the task could ever be conscripted (vegans are estimated at a mere one percent of the population), so realistically speaking, eaters of meat need not fear this position (unless the veganazi regime were to threaten its own citizens with nukes. Hmm).

I do not know if this position is left or right, though I understand "ecofascists," existing along similar lines, are generally classed on the left. Certainly the Greens are left. I am registered a Green, though I do not usually vote, and the Greens are meekly vegan, if even that.

I don't think the vegan point is either left of right and vegans come from all sides of the spectrum.

Your writing though about Islam etc though as being abhorrent and belittling the facts of Waters statements about enforced deportations and Muslim birth control would certainly belong on the far right of the spectrum.

I have come across many people from the vegan camp who have similar views and I wouldn't necessarily call it gentile.

The think is and is probably what Vex is speaking about, people in that camp try to make those views sound "soft" and acceptable or justified because of some other reason of justification and in your case that is veganism. But it doesn't come across soft to me really. The argument really fails because trying to offset one evil with another just doesn't work and isn't a sustainable viewpoint.

It's like when Morrissey belittled the Stockholm far right terrorist attack by bringing up the deaths of animals in the industrial scale meat factories. Neither are justified but by putting an argument of competition between the two the whole stance just falls flat on its face in the public eye.

It is possible to support a movement that aims to reduce suffering and death without also supporting a second movement that supports ethnic and religious control through immigration controls and terrorist violence and enforced birth control.
 

Stephen Hofmann

Well-Known Member
But you don't really contribute to anything related to the music or Morrissey's actual professional work and just seem interested in posting when someone talks about immigration or race or english culture (or your view of english culture).

I have also been too but since 1982

He hasn't done much lately........there isn't much to talk about.
 

Stephen Hofmann

Well-Known Member
And are you again just going too post a short snippet that means nothing?

Do you have a problem focusing or writing anything literate or meaningful?

Generation Identity are absolutely far right. They have a stated objective to "ethnically cleanup europe". You can't get much more far right than that as a definition.

They have a deliberate policy of turning away from traditional far right discussions on genetics and race but instead they focus on culture and identity because they have discussed in meetings that they believe they won't get public support if they talk about genetics and race but their object is still the same.

Their main focus and belief is around spreading the far right conspiracy theory of The Great Replacement. The Great Replacement is a rebranding of the century-old ‘white genocide’ conspiracy theory, which alleges that white people are being deliberately erased through immigration and racial mixing.

The far right terrorist attacks in Norway, Christchurch and El Paso were carried out by people who have stated that they were influenced by The Great Replacement theory and the Christchurch attacker was giving regular donations directly to Generation Identity.

Anne Marie Waters has been one of their key speakers for a long time in highly secured meetings that have taken place in london hotels. In one of her speeches she said:

“The only reason that the mass migration into white Europe is happening on the scale that it’s happening is to disempower white people, to make us a minority and therefore unable to wield political power.”

At the same meeting where she was the main speaker a black member in the meeting asked Ben Jones (UK leader of Generation Identity) whether there would be a place for him in GI’s ideal society. Ben told him that a small number of “non-indigenous” people could live in the UK if they signed up to certain principles, although this would not be desirable.

Waters was criticised in the meeting though and was advised to stop focusing too much on religion and the Anti Islam angle and to start focusing on race in general.

Also in that Generation Identity meeting the Norwegian terrorist Anders Breivik was described as a “serious political thinker with a great many insights and some good practical ideas on strategy.”

Other speakers there were Thomas Roswell, a hideous individual who describes himself as a pagan neo nazi and has written a book of pagan stories for children and founder of the Frithgard Fellowship. I won't go into those people and their views but the info is out their if you are interested. His speech was supposed to be secret but it was recorded by members of Generation Identity and put on their drop box which was not secure so became available.

Also there was Colin Robertson, the Scottish far right Youtuber who states he is "pro-slavery" and has called for refugee boats to be torpedoed which isn't too far away from what Katie Hopkins has also said.

But sure Generation Identity are not far right.

Next snippet?

Only extremely sad f*** would bother writing essays. This isn't Uni. I have a life other than this.
 

Aubrey McFate

Lonely in Barcelona
But she's a vegan so that's ok then

Sort of, yes. Not that Anne Marie Waters fits this mold, but as I said: I would take anyone, left or right, no matter how extreme or deranged, if mandatory veganism was in their platform. I don't care if they were herding obstinate and unrepentant eaters of meat into gas chambers. I would load the Zyklon B capsules myself if they required it of me. I know that seems bad, but we are (hypothetically) talking about the suffering & torture of innocent animals against the swift culling of people who would be willing to martyr themselves for the right to torture animals for food. My primary criticism of Anne Marie Waters is that she does not focus enough on animals. Maybe that's why Morrissey doesn't seem as interested so much anymore.

That aside, again, you speak as though she is justified in her anti Islam views and you only have an issue with the holocaust points. As I have said the speeches she has given which are well documented and the things she has stated she is in favour of such as birth control for Muslims and the planned white race replacement by Muslims is enough for most people to dislike her but you don't seem to be bothered by that and you have in one of your posts stated that Islam is abhorrent so I assume you also have similar far right Islamophobic views and probably misguided through the vegan angle and Halal as probably Morrissey is. Not all Muslims eat meat and the Allah for most part had a plant based diet. Dismissing a religion on the basis of a diet and thinking the likes of enforced birth control is ok because of it is a policy that is no different to the worst anti semitic policies of the last century. Different religion, same hate.

I do think she is justified in her abhorrence of Islam, but I also said that her intense focus on Islam has blinded her to the barbarism inherent in the other Hebrew religions. Islam is nevertheless the worst offender. It's not just halal slaughter. After all, the Jews have kosher slaughter. Islam, however, mandates animal sacrifice on the festival of Eid. Are you not aware of the practice of Qurban?



You can go to the 2.30 mark for the money shot. Is this the kind of cultural barbarism you want in your multicultural country? I could not care less about preserving "white European culture," but however depraved it is, you can at least say that it has not sunk to widespread animal sacrifice. There are many videos like this one on YouTube. Goats, cows, camels, sheep. Hundreds of thousands are ritually slaughtered every year. There used to be a video of a camel on Eid that escaped its bonds with its neck half cut, and ran off in that gruesome state, with a horde of Muslims chasing it and hollering. It was pandemonium. That's the one I was searching for, but it must have been taken down.
 
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