If The Smiths had continued to this day.....

[Lost]

According to your thesis, if he'd been friends with Celine Dion instead of Chrissie Hynde, he'd have written drippy muzak ballads. I don't think that's true.

...

Oh I don't know...."The Boat With a Berg In It's Side" would have been a much superior title track for the film 'Titanic' than Celine's original effort.

 

[Worm]

Oh I don't know...."The Boat With a Berg In It's Side" would have been a much superior title track for the film 'Titanic' than Celine's original effort.

Ahaha!

Not if Barney was rapping over a house beat, it wouldn't...

We're goin' down
(whoo!)
Like the ti-tan-ic!
Sink, sink, sink
In these bittuh teee-ears...
My heart will go OWWW-ON!
Knowing you're gone
I'm gonna raise a glass
To your drowning face
And drink, drink, drink...
(whoo!)

 

[charlie tango]

How odd that some people reckon JM was less than a legend. Ooh, i'd like to hear Viva Hate the way JM would have done it. It would have been intense and relaxed. And better.
Steven Street did a superb job. Look at Bona Drag. It is much more than just a compilation (as is The World Won't Listen). "Sister I'm a Poet" and "Will Never Marry" are perfect.
Speculation isn't pointless. But comparisons often are. Pop writers never can equal the material they wrote in their 20s fifteen or twenty years later. The moment has passed and they are different people. All you can have is the (more than) occasional highlight such as "First Of The Gang.."

 

[Lost]

How odd that some people reckon JM was less than a legend. .."

There are lots of media driven myths where music is concerned and one of the biggest ones ever is that Marr is something other than just a good musician and that Morrissey needs him.
What a load of old cobblers!
Why do people automatically buy into this stuff?
I enjoyed Marr's input into the Smiths but it doesn't come close to making him a legend in my eyes. As i've said, when he has achieved what Morrissey has achieved 'post Smiths' then I might start to believe...but frankly i aint holding my breath!

 

[Worm]

Why do people automatically buy into this stuff?

Who's buying into it automatically? There was absolutely no hype about Johnny Marr as a guitar legend when I first started listening. He was well thought of, but by no means was it the accepted wisdom that he was a god among guitar players. I decided Marr was a genius the way most Smiths fans did-- hours and hours of listening to music that radically changed my life.

As i've said, when he has achieved what Morrissey has achieved 'post Smiths' then I might start to believe...

When Marr tries to recreate/carry on what he was doing in The Smiths, as Morrissey has done, then you can judge him. When he teams up to write jingly-jangly pop songs with a once-in-a-generation singer, then you can judge him. Until then there's no basis of comparison. Marr tried to do something different and (averaged out over the twenty years since the split) he's been mediocre. Morrissey continued what he knew, making pop records not so far removed from the sound of The Smiths. We're glad he did. He's made some great records and we all proudly rank his solo work alongside his Smiths work. And yes, Marr's career has plummeted to earth while Morrissey's is still up in the clouds. But this doesn't diminish what Johnny did in The Smiths, nor does irrelevant hype dished out after the fact to sell shit to thirtysomethings who are now making decent incomes.

There doesn't have to be an antagonism between Morrissey and Marr. They can both be regarded as genius songwriters. The Smiths can be justly celebrated without denigrating Morrissey's solo work.

 

[charlie tango]

Pop writers never can equal the material they wrote in their 20s fifteen or twenty years later. The moment has passed and they are different people.

Anway, JM has a family, plenty money, and can be involved in whatever casual or serious music project he chooses. That would be enough for most. He did enough from '82 to '87 to be a legend.

 

[SouthpawGlamour]

I'm one of those that believe Morrissey WAS The Smiths. I think Marr was a fine musician but replacable.
I think Morrissey confirmed this when he released his first solo album 'Viva Hate'. Frankly you couldn't see the join.

I know there are those that rate Marr very highly as an influence.
But without wanting to diss him entirely, why hasn't he gone on to great things if he's so good?

No, i think The Smiths work would have followed a similar path to that of Morrissey's solo work had they stayed together. With no complaints from me....Great though The Smiths were, I prefer the mature Moz.

Sadly, you are right. Even a great musician like Marr needs a frontman, Moz had to 'take' the songs to people. No Moz, no Smiths.

Ideas need to be made tangible, enter MOZ!!

 

[dentie]

Would their albums have been much the same as Moz's solo work or would they have been very different?

Morrissey's music now is nothing like it was when he was with The Smiths. It's not as good and his voice has changed a lot.

Though Moz solo is still amazing, just in comparison to The Smiths, less good...

I think that if they would still be together, it would be quite the same, just some small changes.

 

[Lost]

When Marr tries to recreate/carry on what he was doing in The Smiths, as Morrissey has done, then you can judge him. When he teams up to write jingly-jangly pop songs with a once-in-a-generation singer, then you can judge him. .

You seem to suggest that Marr made a choice to shun the limelight and just do his own thing musically without trying to sustain the kind of success he had with The Smiths.
I don't agree.
I don't think he's had any choice to become anything more than a mere session musician since the Smiths split because, fine guitarist though he is, he is nothing without Morrissey.

If my views on this thread seem like some sort of attack on Johnny Marr nothing could be further from the truth. I very much appreciated his part in the wonderful Smiths but in my opinion Morrissey is the genius.

 

[Danny]

There's an interview shortly after Marr left the Smiths where he says he's already put together his own band. I think he had big plans for his career after leaving but what scuppered it was Morrissey immediately releasing a number one album. He probably got cold feet and couldn't face the prospect of failure so ended up being a professional sideman.

 

[Tomorrow]

My impression is that they probably would have sounded similar to Morrissey's work.

The reason I think that is because Johnny Marr seems to take on the musical direction of whoever he's working with. He's a brilliant craftsman rather than an independent artist.

So I think Morrissey would have directed the musical path they took.

That's about right, my only problem with The Smiths was the time of their split, It should have taken place after Strangeways was released, it's because they split before that album was made is the reason why that album isn't rated as highly as The Queen Is Dead. I think The Smiths split up at roughly the right time, they were around for a short while and left the music world wanting more, that's alot better than leaving when everyone is left disappointed.

 

[mike joyce]

listen to over the counter culture by the ordinary boys

its the 5th smiths album they never made

 

[Lost]

listen to over the counter culture by the ordinary boys

its the 5th smiths album they never made

Shantelle on backing vocals is awesome!

 

[MozSmith1]

It's hard to say how different (or not) things would be had The Smiths carried on this far; but maybe it was for the better and The Smiths may have tarnished a beautiful thing. In a "Stop, before it gets too redundant and dull" kind of thinking. However, I am very content with Morrissey's solo stuff, so who knows. Maybe if The Smiths were still together, Morrissey’s solo gems may not have ever been created or slightly tweaked for the worst. Of course that's looking at the glass half empty, but I'm content none the less.

 

[unruly boy]

Sorry to piss on this for people, but who knows?

As for why Marr hasn't gone on to great things? Certainly not having Morrissey in his band has something to do with it. He has also had some musicians who aren't up to his standard perhaps and has done a lot of work with odd groups, which I think he prefers. Truth is, there will never be another band like The Smiths with those guys in it at the right time, and Marr flourished in it. Maybe it's also because he put so much into The Smiths, and don't ne fooled he put a lot into them (all you who play down Marr's contribution should think about that) he felt that it was a once in a lifetime experience and that he doesn't want to form an inferior band or whatever. Also, every band he's been in has drawn unfair media comparisions with The Smiths.

I can't really put my finger on why he hasn't had the same success, but I certainly don't buy the 'he's not had as much success because he's crap' theory.

 

[Kickstand]

It's an apples and oranges comparison. Johnny didn't try to replicate his work with The Smiths except here and there. When he did, for instance in the few songs/guitar parts he added to Billy Bragg's "Don't Try This At Home", he was just as good.

Marr's problem is that he enjoys playing the music he loves, but frankly-- I think we all agree-- he just isn't as good as he thinks he is. He won't accept his own limits. Both Morrissey and Marr were better together than apart, but I think it's obvious now that Morrissey was much better equipped to stand on his own than Marr. I still respect Marr for trying.

His work with Modest Mouse should be interesting.

Anyway, I don't think you can call Marr replaceable. Morrissey's music has been really, really good, but not as good, across the board, as Marr's. It may be the difference between "sublime" and "almost sublime", but it's a difference nonetheless.

I don’t see why people expect Johnny Marr to spend his entire life playing the same style he did with The Smiths. Johnny himself has stated his preferences and style have evolved and changed and I for am pleased this has been the case. People change their preferences throughout their lives and I for one welcome change in the world of music. It would tragic for a musician to be playing the same style for well over two decades. Music is all about experimenting, Morrissey is forever experimenting (The band not just Steven) and it’s produced some wonderful material, You are the Quarry, Bona Drag, Ringleader of The Tormentors. I for one am pleased Marr finally got to play the style of music he wanted to do, I always felt that Marr was stuck in the rut trying to please Morrissey’s preferences more so than his own and I for one happen to think The Healers and Electronic are wonderful projects by Marr, they aren’t the best projects one will ever hear, but they are natural projects which highlight Marr’s preferences. Marr on the guitar has no limits, he is a wonderful guitarist who is very sophisticated in his style, I should know as I have mastered some Smiths tracks on guitar and they are incredibly difficult to learn. It’s accurate to say that he does not know his limits in terms of song writing and singing, where I feel he doesn’t excel in this area, mainly because he doesn’t have the skills in song writing, the stage presence of a leader singer and the selfish ruthless streak in order to become a successful singer. I feel he is prepared to take on board the other artist’s views and opinions and base the band around the members, where as most lead singers/songwriters tend to be quite selfish in that respect and make the other members work around them. That’s where he has limitations, but on the guitar the sky is the limit for Johnny (No I’m not saying he is the best guitarist around, I have always preferred John Squire’s mellow playing instead.)

It’s quite obvious that Marr was better equipped with Morrissey; Morrissey’s lyrics allowed Johnny to forge the style with The Smiths and it allowed Andy and Mike to help patch up the music. It’s also very easy to see why Morrissey was better equipped to become successful for starters he was the face and the brains behind The Smiths and it’s no secret that the front men from successful bands naturally go onto to become very successful in solo terms, Ian Brown has done well for himself, Jarvis Cocker is chugging along merrily, John Lennon became a world wide superstar and how about Paul Weller. Morrissey had the qualities needed to become a successful solo artists, he had devotion from The Smiths fan base who idolised Morrissey because he was able to talk to them about their lives indirectly, he is incredibly photogenic, he came across as being a normal working class person with real opinions, Marr didn’t have this appeal about him, sure he made the guitar an attractive proposition and he had cool shades and a nice dress sense, but he didn’t have the song writing ability and voice to command such a successful career, he was everything Morrissey wasn’t and this is what made the partnership so successful, they both bought different things to the table. Marr has done reasonably well what with the resources he has available to him, music is all about expression and Marr has done this well, he may not have had the same career as Morrissey has had, but it doesn’t matter and I don’t think Marr is too bothered about this, he is making music and that is the fundamental point of music, Morrissey’s lavish career is just icing on the cake.

Morrissey’s music was never bound to be good across the board as Marr’s mainly because Morrissey has done substantially more than Marr has since the end of The Smiths, Morrissey is forever under close scrutiny, and it’s hard to be consistent across the board when you have released eleven solo albums in eighteen years. Marr is a wonderful musician first and foremost, which is why he is playing for Modest Mouse at the moment, but he is an average at best singer and songwriter.

Oh i disagree entirely. Post Smith's Marr has done nothing of note.

That’s not entirely true now is it? He’s been in Electronic, The The, The Healers and now Modest Mouse is his latest project. He has produced some good music on several small, failing record labels. Electronic produced several good songs and I like the Healers album, I went to see Modest Mouse not long ago with a few friends and Johnny hasn’t lost his spark, he was probably the only highlight of the concert, it was great to see a musical genius (not legend) playing the guitar with such passion, he is a special musician who commands respect.

Who's buying into it automatically? There was absolutely no hype about Johnny Marr as a guitar legend when I first started listening. He was well thought of, but by no means was it the accepted wisdom that he was a god among guitar players. I decided Marr was a genius the way most Smiths fans did-- hours and hours of listening to music that radically changed my life.

When Marr tries to recreate/carry on what he was doing in The Smiths, as Morrissey has done, then you can judge him. When he teams up to write jingly-jangly pop songs with a once-in-a-generation singer, then you can judge him. Until then there's no basis of comparison. Marr tried to do something different and (averaged out over the twenty years since the split) he's been mediocre. Morrissey continued what he knew, making pop records not so far removed from the sound of The Smiths. We're glad he did. He's made some great records and we all proudly rank his solo work alongside his Smiths work. And yes, Marr's career has plummeted to earth while Morrissey's is still up in the clouds. But this doesn't diminish what Johnny did in The Smiths, nor does irrelevant hype dished out after the fact to sell shit to thirtysomethings who are now making decent incomes.

There doesn't have to be an antagonism between Morrissey and Marr. They can both be regarded as genius songwriters. The Smiths can be justly celebrated without denigrating Morrissey's solo work.

I have to agree, I discovered Marr’s talent whilst listening to The Smiths, I mainly play the Bass guitar, but It was Marr who made the prospect of playing a guitar all the more prosperous. He is not the greatest guitarist in the land, but then who is? Every guitar has different styles and textures, which is what makes music so diverse. I don’t understand the part where you say “You can only judge Marr when he goes back in time and plays The Smiths style of music” since when has Morrissey done this in his solo career? A few tracks sounds like something Marr, Moz, Joyce and Rourke could muster up, but his solo work is very diverse and alternative, it sounds little like The Smiths. Marr tried new ideas out and so has Morrissey, it doesn’t mean you can’t compare Morrissey to Marr, or Morrissey’s works to the Smiths or Marr’s works to The Smiths, music was designed to cause discussion and music was made to be listened to, liked, disliked and foremost compared. Comparisons are the art to any formal or informal discussion based on one or several particular discussion points. I also fail to see how Morrissey solo works resemble that of The Smiths, his earliest solo works do, yes, but that’s because of age, life experiences and it was shortly after his Smiths days, he has moved away from The Smiths all together and the jingly jangly pop based music came about with the introduction of Boz and Alain, I’m not sure how You are the Quarry, Ringleader of The Tormentors or even Maladjusted resemble The Smiths. The beautiful aspect about Morrissey is that every album is new and fresh, it’s not repetitive or bland. Each album has a different tale/tales to tell. I agree with your last bit, but people will always compare an artist’s solo works to that of his/her/their work in a band. Music is there to be explored and discussed, compared and contrasted.

 

[Kickstand]

Anway, JM has a family, plenty money, and can be involved in whatever casual or serious music project he chooses. That would be enough for most. He did enough from '82 to '87 to be a legend.

Marr was quite serious about wanting a solo career, that’s probably one of the many reasons he left The Smiths, he didn’t want to be known as Johnny Marr the guitarist of The Smiths, he wanted to recognition and accolades that Morrissey was given. It just never went to plan for him; he didn’t have the qualities to become successful like Morrissey has done and other British artists who have broken away from a band. I think now Marr is taking music in his stride, The Healers have a new album out later this year and he is playing with Modest Mouse and making music with Modest Mouse, so he still has the ambition to play music and still holds aspirations as a solo artist.

You seem to suggest that Marr made a choice to shun the limelight and just do his own thing musically without trying to sustain the kind of success he had with The Smiths.
I don't agree.
I don't think he's had any choice to become anything more than a mere session musician since the Smiths split because, fine guitarist though he is, he is nothing without Morrissey.

If my views on this thread seem like some sort of attack on Johnny Marr nothing could be further from the truth. I very much appreciated his part in the wonderful Smiths but in my opinion Morrissey is the genius.

Marr didn’t shun limelight, but he didn’t go out of his way to embrace it either, he was quite happy sitting in a studio with people who had the same interests as him making music and enjoying independence, where as Morrissey was much more driven to pick up where he left off with The Smiths, Johnny is laid back and Morrissey isn’t, I think that’s fundamentally where Morrissey excelled and Marr fell by the roadside, but then Morrissey is a special songwriter a quality Marr sadly will never have. I wouldn’t call him a session musician either, that is very much wrong, the case could be argued with Modest Mouse, but he was very much a fundamental figurehead in his earlier solo projects. I wouldn’t say he is nothing without Morrissey, but he is very much at a disadvantage compared to Morrissey and it could be argued that Morrissey isn’t complete without Marr. I often feel with Morrissey’s solo works that one vital ingredient is missing and that is something which isn’t missing with The Smiths. That would be a strong song writing partnership, Boz and Whyte and written some great material with Morrissey, but I don’t feel it’s a patch on what Marr and Morrissey wrote together, I’d even stick my neck on the line and say that Stephen Street has been Morrissey finest partner since The end of Marr and Morrissey. Morrissey was the brains behind The Smiths, but it was Marr, Joyce and Rourke who shaped the music which accompanied the lyrical content perfectly. Marr polished Morrissey’s lyrics, Marr helped organise The Smiths affairs, so he should have far more respect from fans than what he has been given

listen to over the counter culture by the ordinary boys

its the 5th smiths album they never made

The Ordinary Boys are cheap imitations, like those fake McCoy’s.

 

[Kickstand]

Well, hold on.

The Smiths were a magical, once in a generation, meeting of souls. What they did in a few years will always be remembered for its greatness. What people see as Marr's post-Smiths work being less worthy than The Smiths, is only a reflection of the perceived lack of foil he had to play off. If you asked Marr, I'm sure he'd say his Electronic work with Bernard Sumner and Matt Johnson is among his best work. Certainly, Get The Message and The Beaten Generation is classy stuff that stands up well against Smiths material.

Peter

His solo works has easily been his best works, simply because he has been allowed to be independent and experimental and create the music he wants to with people with the same passions as him and that is what music is about, Marr hasn’t been forced to play in a certain way to accompany someone else’s lyrics, he has been able to express himself both on the guitar and on paper and it’s a breath of fresh air amongst manufactured music where appearance of the singers/musicians and mixing of the voice is more important, Marr’s material is low budget and raw and that’s the best thing about it.

 

[Tottenham Tom]

I'd imagine that much of the lyrics and the main themes would have been the same.... although perhaps less of the "evil legal eagle" type stuff.

Musically it could have been a bit different though. Viva Hate could easily pass as a Smiths album and there are elements of each album that soung vaguely Smiths-ish.

TT

 

[Bluebirds]

Morrissey has stated they could have been bigger than Queen.

Johnny Marr has stated he wanted the direction to be into torch-song territory a la Scott Walker.

The mind boggles!!!

But I think they would have probably turned into a U2 or REM releasing records and going on stadium tours and I, for one, am glad that that never happened. Imagine the terrifying prospect of The Smiths ft Mary J Blige (or rather, whats her name, Jamelia!) or Morrissey making grandoise pronouncements about animal cruelty

The legacy continues unabated.

I also think Morrissey and Marr are such scholars of pop music history that the magic and enduring legend of The Smiths would be lost at any reunion. Too canny by far.

Having said that, if Quarry had bombed???