I started something I couldn't finish: the Smiths reunion that wasn't - The Guardian

A somewhat padded-out interview with Messrs Joyce and Gannon about the recent Classically Smiths debacle.

I started something I couldn't finish: the Smiths reunion that wasn't - The Guardian
Three former members of the indie band were due to reunite for a series of gigs that fell apart as soon as they were announced. Mike Joyce and Craig Gannon explain why they tried to make it happen

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evennow

Writers on the storm
I have always believed Morrissey had a passionate "interest" in Johnny. One that was more akin to his very particular sensuality that he associates with things like leather seats and stationery shops. Being in love with Angie, Johnny didn't seem to ever have any real romantic feelings for Moz but he was smart enough to know that allowing Moz to enjoy his crush would only be beneficial.

A really well written post. This point in particular struck me as quite insightful. Very interesting this thought of "beneficial". Maybe not like stoking the flames of a fire, but still not throwing cold water on it. I would be interested to know if you feel any of the wonderful song lyrics Moz created could be ascribed to his feelings towards Johnny. Could he have been a quasi-muse for Moz in an artistic sense?

I think the idea of Moz embracing this unrequited love makes complete sense. Wanting the one that he can't have and it driving him mad fits him quite well. He is like an oyster that needs a grain of sand to make a beautiful pearl.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
speculation is a funny thing. :cool:


Anyways....

It's really saddening to read about Andy Rourke and Mike Joyce and the lives they have now( the recent cancellation and not having music in their lives).
More gurgling from the K-Hole. Both - very clearly - have music in their lives and continue to work in the industry. It doesn’t take much effort to self-check your posts for the bullshit factor.
 

evennow

Writers on the storm
Hope they can get something together since their tribute thing didn't come off. They should really try to have a real band, write their own music, forget who they worked with in the past and just try to move forward instead of looking backwards.

Morrissey and Johnny can't help them.


Oh KS, there you go again contradicting yourself. For someone who constantly bemoans the necessity of moving forward your posting of old music videos to prove your points leaves you open to criticism without emojis. Please point out where in this story Mike asked for Morrissey or Johnny's help. The hinge here was that Andy was not on-board.

You have a tendency to try and boil any discussion down to a caveman like response of: Morrissey good. Others bad.

They had a "real band" that created really good music, and were an integral part of the music whether they wrote it or not. How they decide to move forward is really their decision and it will be up to the current, listening public to determine whether it has any value. Certainly it would not be up to you or me for that matter to determine the outcome.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
STOP with the despicable Joyce - Moz gossip LIES.

Mike and Moz never became the beast with two backs.

Mike may have seen Morrissey's behind more than anyone else but that's cos he was the drummer.

Mike ain't gay y'all - this is The Smiths not Culture Club.

Put your rockets back in your pockets ya twisted filthy-minded pervs.

Who'll be next you sick f***s???

30szfbc.jpg
 

swift eclipse

Active Member
A really well written post. This point in particular struck me as quite insightful. Very interesting this thought of "beneficial". Maybe not like stoking the flames of a fire, but still not throwing cold water on it. I would be interested to know if you feel any of the wonderful song lyrics Moz created could be ascribed to his feelings towards Johnny. Could he have been a quasi-muse for Moz in an artistic sense?

I think the idea of Moz embracing this unrequited love makes complete sense. Wanting the one that he can't have and it driving him mad fits him quite well. He is like an oyster that needs a grain of sand to make a beautiful pearl.

Thank you, evennow. Your comment is exactly what I was getting at. Johnny was wily and he knew that benign neglect would work nicely with Morrissey. On many levels. Lyrics definitely being one. Johnny was absolutely a muse for Moz! Your oyster reference is perfect. Having read many of your posts over the years I'm sure you are already aware of most if not all of the supposed Marr references Morrissey has made in song, but my favorite would have to be "He knows I'd love to see him". Whether it's really about Marr or not, it's fun for me to think that it is.
 

evennow

Writers on the storm
Thank you, evennow. Your comment is exactly what I was getting at. Johnny was wily and he knew that benign neglect would work nicely with Morrissey. On many levels. Lyrics definitely being one. Johnny was absolutely a muse for Moz! Your oyster reference is perfect. Having read many of your posts over the years I'm sure you are already aware of most if not all of the supposed Marr references Morrissey has made in song, but my favorite would have to be "He knows I'd love to see him". Whether it's really about Marr or not, it's fun for me to think that it is.

A good discourse around here is hard to find, but well worth the effort. I really never thought of Marr as being the subject of Morrissey's writing. It is quite obvious now from what you have written that there was something much deeper than I ever imagined.

What is most remarkable about his lyrics is how they have such clear homo...oh excuse me...humasexual undertones, but still speak to more universal human thoughts and feelings. In a way, they transcend sexuality all together and speak more to inner wants and desires. This is what drew me to the music during my youth. He has had to walk a fine line for his whole career for fear of the ramifications of self disclosure. I am sure this has taken some sort of toll on his psyche and possibly health.

It has been argued here quite thoroughly whether he should come out and proclaim his sexuality, but I am in the camp that appreciates him keeping his hidden. What fun is a clown if his make up is off. Not equating him to a clown, but simply an excellent performer, showman, and entertainer that has created a persona that is forever intertwined with whatever sexuality we the listener ascribe to him. I think he knows and relishes this part of how he and his music are interpreted.
 
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swift eclipse

Active Member
A good discourse around here is hard to find, but well worth the effort. I really never thought of Marr as being the subject of Morrissey's writing. It is quite obvious now from what you have written that there was something much deeper than I ever imagined.

What is most remarkable about his lyrics is how they have such clear homo...oh excuse me...humasexual undertones, but still speak to more universal human thoughts and feelings. In a way, they transcend sexuality all together and speak more to inner wants and desires. This is what drew me to the music during my youth. He has had to walk a fine line for his whole career for fear of the ramifications of self disclosure. I am sure this has taken some sort of toll on his psyche and possibly health.

It has been argued here quite thoroughly whether he should come out and proclaim his sexuality, but I am in the camp that appreciates him keeping his hidden. What fun is a clown if his make up is off. Not equating him to a clown, but simply an excellent performer, showman, and entertainer that has created a persona that is forever intertwined with whatever sexuality we the listener ascribe to him. I think he knows and relishes this part of how he and his music are interpreted.

I'm glad you got something out of my ramblings and it's kind of you to say so. It's nice to know there is someone out there open to new ideas and willing to explore them. You are clearly in touch with his lyrics and his motivations. Personally, I think he used to be purposely oblique in the Smiths and early solo stuff out of a perceived necessity on his part (although "a boy in the bush" is rather on the nose, so to speak), but he has obviously opened up more to bluntness lately. I believe that limiting himself made his writing better in his early work as is often the case when limitations are imposed. Surely he was never really all that concerned about being "outed" by his own words so much as he wanted to avoid boxing in the listener to a firm set of parameters. In fact, he used to say as much in interviews of the time. I was under the impression that he already came out as mostly gay in Biography. Or are we still at humasexual. I don't know. He has desires and sometimes even fulfills them. Animal, vegetable, mineral. Whatever it may be, it doesn't really matter to me and sort of never has.
 
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Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
I have always believed Morrissey had a passionate "interest" in Johnny. One that was more akin to his very particular sensuality that he associates with things like leather seats and stationery shops. Being in love with Angie, Johnny didn't seem to ever have any real romantic feelings for Moz but he was smart enough to know that allowing Moz to enjoy his crush would only be beneficial. I mean, those promo shots of them standing with arms entwined (brilliant as they are at representing their bond) weren't Johnny's idea now were they? Or that pic of them lying on the grass with Morrissey gazing at Johnny as he strums an acoustic guitar. As Martin Fry once sang, that's the look of love.

I think this is bang on the money, although I'm not sure it was as manipulative as you make out. I think theirs was a romantic friendship where the emotional boundaries were blurred, with a tacit understanding that nothing could go further. Johnny has fielded many questions about Morrissey being in love with him, and he has answered very carefully and weighed his words. He has never reacted with surprise. Morrissey's response below is very defensive and revealing.

Johnny: "From when we first met, we loved each other. We didn't fall in love with each other, because we respected that we both enjoyed having our own space and our own lives and we knew that was important. But there was a very strong bond." (Enduring Saga of the Smiths, Tony Fletcher).

Morrissey: "Why doesn't anyone ever assume that maybe Johnny Marr was in love with me? That perhaps Johnny Marr was in fact madly in love with me, but didn't feel he could act on that - or that he didn't have the courage to ever take it any further?" (GQ, 2005).

I also remember Morrissey taking part in a late-night radio interview, alone, in '83 or '84 (I posted it here once but I can't recall the name.) It was a long and interesting interview in several parts. At one point a fan rang in and seemed to be goading him - along the lines of, "I've seen Johnny Marr out tonight, a lot of people were with him. They were all over him" and Morrissey says "Oh, indeed" or similar, very gently. It was a very strange, knowing, awkward moment. I will try to find it.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
A good discourse around here is hard to find, but well worth the effort. I really never thought of Marr as being the subject of Morrissey's writing. It is quite obvious now from what you have written that there was something much deeper than I ever imagined.

You guys are so funny. This is I think a case of "The grown men don't know, but the little girls understand" - Morrissey's obsessive love of Marr is literally the subject of hundreds if not thousands of fanfic stories written by teenage girls around the globe. Look up "Marrissey".
 
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Anonymous

Guest
Morrisseys answer is from 2005. He doesn’t seem so much defensive as he seems tired of talking about this same story
 

g23

Always crashing in the same car
STOP with the despicable Joyce - Moz gossip LIES.

Mike and Moz never became the beast with two backs.

Mike may have seen Morrissey's behind more than anyone else but that's cos he was the drummer.

Mike ain't gay y'all - this is The Smiths not Culture Club.

Put your rockets back in your pockets ya twisted filthy-minded pervs.

Who'll be next you sick f***s???

30szfbc.jpg
It's a miracle they got any music recorded at all, The Smiths, what with all the non-stop buggery and gay dance parties they was all havin'.
 

evennow

Writers on the storm
I'm glad you got something out of my ramblings and it's kind of you to say so. It's nice to know there is someone out there open to new ideas and willing to explore them. You are clearly in touch with his lyrics and his motivations. Personally, I think he used to be purposely oblique in the Smiths and early solo stuff out of a perceived necessity on his part (although "a boy in the bush" is rather on the nose, so to speak), but he has obviously opened up more to bluntness lately. I believe that limiting himself made his writing better in his early work as is often the case when limitations are imposed. Surely he was never really all that concerned about being "outed" by his own words so much as he wanted to avoid boxing in the listener to a firm set of parameters. In fact, he used to say as much in interviews of the time. I was under the impression that he already came out as mostly gay in Biography. Or are we still at humasexual. I don't know. He has desires and sometimes even fulfills them. Animal, mineral, vegetable. Whatever it may be, it doesn't really matter to me and sort of never has.

I don't follow him as closely as I used to so there are many others more current on things, but I can say that this new "bluntness" or more to the point lack of nuance in his lyrics in combination with the less than inspiring music does not serve his enormous talent well.

Along with limitations like a lack of money, feelings of alienation, oppression by authority, etc. youth played a large part in it. Every feeling and emotion is so important and heightened. There is an immediacy that dissipates the older you get. I guess the best way I can put it now is that he might still be him, but I am no longer me.
 

swift eclipse

Active Member
I don't follow him as closely as I used to so there are many others more current on things, but I can say that this new "bluntness" or more to the point lack of nuance in his lyrics in combination with the less than inspiring music does not serve his enormous talent well.

Along with limitations like a lack of money, feelings of alienation, oppression by authority, etc. youth played a large part in it. Every feeling and emotion is so important and heightened. There is an immediacy that dissipates the older you get. I guess the best way I can put it now is that he might still be him, but I am no longer me.

Or you are more you now and less in need of him. That's okay, too.
 

swift eclipse

Active Member
You guys are so funny. This is I think a case of "The grown men don't know, but the little girls understand" - Morrissey's obsessive love of Marr is literally the subject of hundreds if not thousands of fanfic stories written by teenage girls around the globe. Look up "Marrissey".

Well, I have been aware of what I have posted here regarding Moz and Marr for decades so it's not really news to me that other people feel the same way. I seldom find myself one upped by teenage girls but if that's your thing so be it.
 

swift eclipse

Active Member
It's a miracle they got any music recorded at all, The Smiths, what with all the non-stop buggery and gay dance parties they was all havin'.

Cool it with the levity. We're trying to figure out The Smiths here and we don't need some yahoo making everybody laugh. This is serious. Seriously. Be serious. Or I'll spank you with a wet plimsoll! ;)
 

Ketamine Sun

<><><><><><><><><><>
Oh KS, there you go again contradicting yourself. For someone who constantly bemoans the necessity of moving forward your posting of old music videos to prove your points leaves you open to criticism without emojis. Please point out where in this story Mike asked for Morrissey or Johnny's help. The hinge here was that Andy was not on-board.

You have a tendency to try and boil any discussion down to a caveman like response of: Morrissey good. Others bad.

They had a "real band" that created really good music, and were an integral part of the music whether they wrote it or not. How they decide to move forward is really their decision and it will be up to the current, listening public to determine whether it has any value. Certainly it would not be up to you or me for that matter to determine the outcome.

nah. :sleeping:
 

swift eclipse

Active Member
I think this is bang on the money, although I'm not sure it was as manipulative as you make out. I think theirs was a romantic friendship where the emotional boundaries were blurred, with a tacit understanding that nothing could go further. Johnny has fielded many questions about Morrissey being in love with him, and he has answered very carefully and weighed his words. He has never reacted with surprise. Morrissey's response below is very defensive and revealing.

Johnny: "From when we first met, we loved each other. We didn't fall in love with each other, because we respected that we both enjoyed having our own space and our own lives and we knew that was important. But there was a very strong bond." (Enduring Saga of the Smiths, Tony Fletcher).

Morrissey: "Why doesn't anyone ever assume that maybe Johnny Marr was in love with me? That perhaps Johnny Marr was in fact madly in love with me, but didn't feel he could act on that - or that he didn't have the courage to ever take it any further?" (GQ, 2005).

I also remember Morrissey taking part in a late-night radio interview, alone, in '83 or '84 (I posted it here once but I can't recall the name.) It was a long and interesting interview in several parts. At one point a fan rang in and seemed to be goading him - along the lines of, "I've seen Johnny Marr out tonight, a lot of people were with him. They were all over him" and Morrissey says "Oh, indeed" or similar, very gently. It was a very strange, knowing, awkward moment. I will try to find it.

Thanks Amy. I like your take on this. You know all the details very well. A great sense of recall. It's almost as if it's important to you. This silly Smiths stuff. What would we do with ourselves without this wacky website? I love that radio interview you mentioned. It's strangely intimate.
 
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