I started something I couldn't finish: the Smiths reunion that wasn't - The Guardian

A somewhat padded-out interview with Messrs Joyce and Gannon about the recent Classically Smiths debacle.

I started something I couldn't finish: the Smiths reunion that wasn't - The Guardian
Three former members of the indie band were due to reunite for a series of gigs that fell apart as soon as they were announced. Mike Joyce and Craig Gannon explain why they tried to make it happen

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Related item:

• "Classically Smiths" shows no longer going forward - Mike Joyce, Craig Gannon statements on FB - Jan. 23, 2018

 

[Anonymous]

You could substitute the word "Andy" for "Morrissey" and this first section would apply equally, if not more so. The difference between them is that Morrissey picked himself up and carried on. If Andy didn't put the work in for a career outside The Smiths, why should someone else do it for him? You make it sound as though Johnny ran cackling into the shadows and poor Andy was left there, on the scrapheap, forever more. In my mind, it is closer to the truth to say that he was simply lazy. By Andy's own admission, he wasn't ambitious - in 2013 he said he moved to New York because in England he was "....watching daytime TV and then four years pass by, and you think "Oh shit."'

The difference between Andy Rourke and Morrissey is that, as an established "frontman", Morrissey was a comparatively easy product for record companies to sell. As a bass guitarist - albeit an extremely talented musician - Andy isn't quite the same commodity as Morrissey.

On a personal level, Morrissey is an arsehole. Marr knows this and it's why The Smiths ended when, and as, they did.

 

[Orson Swells]

Andy isn't quite the same commodity as Morrissey.

Understatement is a wonderful thing.

On a personal level, Morrissey is an arsehole. Marr knows this and it's why The Smiths ended when, and as, they did.

I'm glad you are privy to Johnny Marr's innermost thoughts.

 

[Anonymous]

Understatement is a wonderful thing.

Isn't it? Morrissey is no more than a commodity, these days.

I'm glad you are privy to Johnny Marr's innermost thoughts.

On this particular topic, I think we all are.

 

[Orson Swells]

On this particular topic, I think we all are.

You really aren't.

 

[Anonymous]

If he is a multi millionaire why did he allegedly use legal aid? A mean tested program for people on benefits?

Possibly because he only became a multi-millionaire once he git paid fir his work with the Smiths.

 

[Anonymous]

If he is a multi millionaire why did he allegedly use legal aid? A mean tested program for people on benefits?

Who is your source for this allegation that Mike Joyce used legal aid. Is it someone reliable or is it Morrissey?

 

[Anonymous]

So the lawsuit was never about the money. Some guy in a pub who once sold Andy smack told me the smiths broke up over a love triangle.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not talking about the law, I'm talking about the heart !


and so.....

Joyce LOST.

 

[Anonymous]

So the lawsuit was never about the money. Some guy in a pub who once sold Andy smack told me the smiths broke up over a love triangle.

... between Morrissey, Marr and Joyce?

 

[Anonymous]

Sounds good to me!

 

[Anonymous]

So the lawsuit was never about the money. Some guy in a pub who once sold Andy smack told me the smiths broke up over a love triangle.

Between Brummie Boy, Benny the British Butcher and Ketamine Sun?

 

[Peppermint]

... between Morrissey, Marr and Joyce?

That's the rumour that keeps cropping up. I'm pretty sceptical myself but I suppose it would explain some things. Here's an idea: I'm forever hearing about people bumping into Mike Joyce and what an open, friendly guy he is, so why don't we just ask him? I'm sure he won't mind

 

[swift eclipse]

That's the rumour that keeps cropping up. I'm pretty sceptical myself but I suppose it would explain some things. Here's an idea: I'm forever hearing about people bumping into Mike Joyce and what an open, friendly guy he is, so why don't we just ask him? I'm sure he won't mind

Peppermint, that was my same experience with meeting Mike. A genuinely nice guy. I spoke with him a lot over the course of several hours and hung around as others had conversations with him. What surprised me most at the time (in '97) was just how unbelievably effusive Mike was about how much he admired Morrissey. Like truly, unabashedly thinks of him as a remarkable person and artist. I kid you not. Mike was sprinkling in Smiths lyrics as he answered my questions. "And I am a living sign..." is one in particular I remember him saying. It didn't come off as fake either. I recall standing there thinking this guy really loves Morrissey. But it didn't strike me to be in a sexual way at all. More like reverence. Mike has always seemed very hetero to me but I guess in some cases exceptions are made. Personally, I seriously doubt it though. It's likely Mike was just enamored with the feeling of being made Morrissey's go-to guy for a time. There are a lot of people that would like to be in that position. Also, Mike made it clear to me that he really hated to sue Morrissey and Marr and I believe him. The slanderous parroting that goes on around here by cheap minded followers that Mike is some sort of monster for making a case for himself is ridiculous and pathetic. After all, he could have lost and he definitely knew what he was going to lose.

 

[Peppermint]

Peppermint, that was my same experience with meeting Mike. A genuinely nice guy. I spoke with him a lot over the course of several hours and hung around as others had conversations with him. What surprised me most at the time (in '97) was just how unbelievably effusive Mike was about how much he admired Morrissey. Like truly, unabashedly thinks of him as a remarkable person and artist. I kid you not. Mike was sprinkling in Smiths lyrics as he answered my questions. "And I am a living sign..." is one in particular I remember him saying. It didn't come off as fake either. I recall standing there thinking this guy really loves Morrissey. But it didn't strike me to be in a sexual way at all. More like reverence. Mike has always seemed very hetero to me but I guess in some cases exceptions are made. Personally, I seriously doubt it though. More likely Mike was just enamored with the feeling of being Morrissey's go-to guy for a time. There are a lot of people that would like to be in that position. Also, Mike made it clear to me that he really hated to sue Morrissey and I believe him. The slanderous parroting that goes on around here by cheap minded followers that Mike is some sort of monster for making a case for himself is ridiculous and pathetic. After all, he could have lost and he definitely knew what he was going to lose.

Interesting stuff, Swifty. It is curious how somebody could still be so reverential about somebody they sued - or more to the point, somebody whose actions forced them to sue them. Is it guilt, I wonder? I'm saying that even though I do agree that the scapegoating is pathetic and unfair. A lot of people look at the court case through the prism of Mike vs Morrissey + Johnny, but they forget that it was very nearly Mike + Andy vs Morrissey + Johnny, which does put a slightly different spin on it. One person suing might just be a greedy opportunist; two people starts to look like more of a justified grievance.

So, you don't think the rumour is true (and I'm not really convinced). But what do you think he would have said if you'd asked him outright?

 

[Anonymous]

Is it guilt, I wonder?

"Years later, when fattened and bored and watching the clock, Joyce manages to get two letters to me, one of which begins ‘I know you must hate me’ (which reads as ‘you have every reason to hate me’), and he continues with a plea for renewed friendship, whilst making public declarations in favor of a Smiths re-formation."

 

[Peppermint]

"Years later, when fattened and bored and watching the clock, Joyce manages to get two letters to me, one of which begins ‘I know you must hate me’ (which reads as ‘you have every reason to hate me’), and he continues with a plea for renewed friendship, whilst making public declarations in favor of a Smiths re-formation."

I think his admiration for Morrissey is genuine - I have heard/read him speak highly of him many times over the years, there are too many instances for it to be an act. No sane human could keep that up... if he thought he was a twat (and let's face it, he's had plenty of provocation), sooner or later that would have come out. Wouldn't it?

I do find it a bit odd that he is so effusive, though, and so keen to still associate himself with the Smiths, given all the grief it's given him. Possible motives:

1. He is an oily worm with no dignity or self respect - he will prostitute himself in any way to align himself with the Smiths in perpetuity
2. He is unusually easy-going and is determined not to let all the sniping ruin his life or sour his past experiences
3. He's needy. He knows it's over but still he clings - it was the best time of his life and he misses the attention
4. He is a bit simple and doesn't see what all the fuss is about
5. He loathes Morrissey with a passion, and is getting unimaginable amounts of pleasure from pissing him off with his frequent media appearances and declarations of undying respect

I have no way of knowing which of these is true (if indeed it's any of them) but it does amuse me to think it might be 5.

 

[evennow]

I do find it a bit odd that he is so effusive, though, and so keen to still associate himself with the Smiths, given all the grief it's given him. Possible motives:

1. He is an oily worm with no dignity or self respect - he will prostitute himself in any way to align himself with the Smiths in perpetuity
2. He is unusually easy-going and is determined not to let all the sniping ruin his life or sour his past experiences
3. He's needy. He knows it's over but still he clings - it was the best time of his life and he misses the attention
4. He is a bit simple and doesn't see what all the fuss is about
5. He loathes Morrissey with a passion, and is getting unimaginable amounts of pleasure from pissing him off with his frequent media appearances and declarations of undying respect

I have no way of knowing which of these is true (if indeed it's any of them) but it does amuse me to think it might be 5.

Me neither, but I much prefer the correct answer to be #2. He felt he was wronged financially from his years with The Smiths, and so he took his grievances to court and was successful, and then moved on with his life. Given this, Occam's razor would suggest that #2 would be the most likely outcome.

He has just as much right to celebrate the music of The Smiths as any of them do regardless of what percentage one subscribes to each. The fact that he is championing this wonderful music I find to be quite understandable.

The methods employed may not be well thought through, but I don't get the sense from what I have read or heard to suggest anything other than he loves the music in which he had a hand (or two hands) in creating, and wants to bring it forth again today for it to be enjoyed. I tend to see the best in people, and in a few cases it is to my folly (Judas Iscariot comes to mind), but in most it is trust well placed. People will surprise you to the better if you give them a chance.

 

[Peppermint]

Me neither, but I much prefer the correct answer to be #2. He felt he was wronged financially from his years with The Smiths, and so he took his grievances to court and was successful, and then moved on with his life. Given this, Occam's razor would suggest that #2 would be the most likely outcome.

He has just as much right to celebrate the music of The Smiths as any of them do regardless of what percentage one subscribes to each. The fact that he is championing this wonderful music I find to be quite understandable.

The methods employed may not be well thought through, but I don't get the sense from what I have read or heard to suggest anything other than he loves the music in which he had a hand (or two hands) in creating, and wants to bring it forth again today for it to be enjoyed. I tend to see the best in people, and in a few cases it is to my folly (Judas Iscariot comes to mind), but in most it is trust well placed. People will surprise you to the better if you give them a chance.

For what it's worth, Evennow, I tend to agree with you.

 

[swift eclipse]

Interesting stuff, Swifty. It is curious how somebody could still be so reverential about somebody they sued - or more to the point, somebody whose actions forced them to sue them. Is it guilt, I wonder? I'm saying that even though I do agree that the scapegoating is pathetic and unfair. A lot of people look at the court case through the prism of Mike vs Morrissey + Johnny, but they forget that it was very nearly Mike + Andy vs Morrissey + Johnny, which does put a slightly different spin on it. One person suing might just be a greedy opportunist; two people starts to look like more of a justified grievance.

So, you don't think the rumour is true (and I'm not really convinced). But what do you think he would have said if you'd asked him outright?

All excellent points. It actually was two band members with grievances, but of course Andy took the lesser payout. I think because he needed fast money for his drug habit and also because he was just really reluctant to go that far against his old friend Johnny. He did take the money so he definitely felt that he was owed something. Just like Mike. But Andy didn't want to ruin his friendship with Marr, not in a careerist sense, more that he just enjoyed making music with Johnny and hoped to do so again. I can even see Marr subtly suggesting this to Andy as a reason to take the payout. Johnny knew Andy was malleable and took advantage of this by leveraging their friendship in the arrangement. "Come on, mate. Take the money and let's get past this." Playing on relationship dynamics and all. Andy is just the type of person to let it go at that and I mean that in a good way. Some people have too much heart and soul to go down certain roads. Some call those people losers, but they're wrong. Marr is much more Machevellian and sly than people give him credit for. This dude arranged to cold call a decidedly vicious narcissist named Steven Patrick Morrissey and convinced him to be his writing partner in one afternoon for God's sake. That takes something. Not to mention the whole walking into Rough Trade, handing label boss Geoff Travis a crude demo tape and telling him to make it happen cap'n. This is a proper Manc scouser with no dust on his Clarks. Ever see that video of Marr on the tv panel show with all the "kid's" being interviewed about politics and whatnot? He comes off as pretty clued up even at that tender age. Andy has always been more casual about life and we see where that got him post-Smiths. To Andy's credit he has his integrity in place. I can't see where he's ever begged Johnny or anyone else for work and he shouldn't have to. The more I think about Johnny refusing to record with Andy for the past 30 years the more it pisses me off. Both on a human level and an artistic one. Marr would never admit it but his music suffers without Andy's contribution. In regards to any romantic stuff between Moz and Mike, of course anything is possible, but I can't visualize it (nor do I want to). I have always believed Morrissey had a passionate "interest" in Johnny. One that was more akin to his very particular sensuality that he associates with things like leather seats and stationery shops. Being in love with Angie, Johnny didn't seem to ever have any real romantic feelings for Moz but he was smart enough to know that allowing Moz to enjoy his crush would only be beneficial. I mean, those promo shots of them standing with arms entwined (brilliant as they are at representing their bond) weren't Johnny's idea now were they? Or that pic of them lying on the grass with Morrissey gazing at Johnny as he strums an acoustic guitar. As Martin Fry once sang, that's the look of love. Johnny's music makes you cry and swim in the tears according to Moz at the time, but I digress. Could Morrisssey have had a thing for Mike? Maybe. He was certainly aware of Mike's adoration for him. It's been heavily suggested that Moz had eyes for Spencer Cobrin and other band mates over the years, to the point that it made some uncomfortable enough to move on. Morrissey is very much an alpha male contrary to the camp persona put forth and bought into. I'm certain he is and has become even more sexually aggressive in his life. Maybe this might explain his surprisingly flippant stance on the whole sexual harrassment situation. One thing we all know, Morrissey likes to get want he wants. I think he also likes it when he doesn't get what he wants because an ordinary housewife he is not. Another thing is for sure, Andy was not involved in any of this stuff. He was bangin' groupie girls every chance he got. To answer your question about asking Mike, I would say that it would be one of those times where the only way to gain any insight to the truth would be to spring it on him out of the blue and pay close attention to his first facial expression. Because anything after that is surely of no value. He didn't come off as that unguarded when I met him. Does anyone?

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

speculation is a funny thing.


Anyways....

It's really saddening to read about Andy Rourke and Mike Joyce and the lives they have now( the recent cancellation and not having music in their lives).

Hope they can get something together since their tribute thing didn't come off. They should really try to have a real band, write their own music, forget who they worked with in the past and just try to move forward instead of looking backwards.

Morrissey and Johnny can't help them.