How many people supported Mike Joyce's claim at the trial?

[Flibberty]

The recording part is the performance but in order to perform the parts they would first have to be composed. And I think we're getting stuck on the word "composed." I don't believe that anything was actually written down, but then I don't believe that Johnny Marr wrote out all of his guitar parts on notation paper. You can compose on tape. Listen to the interview if you haven't. Mike talks about the recording process and it's very interesting.
Mike could have recorded with the group or alone and it wouldn't really matter as to the time spent preparing. The thing is he did spend time composing his parts aside from the time he spent recording them.

No, I wasn't talking about composition because there is no point in getting bogged down with that.

You mentioned in your post (the emphasis is mine) that, "I don't think Johnny was hanging around watching Mike record his drum parts". That suggests that all 4 members would record entirely separately which is something that I have not heard suggested before.

 

[Judge Judy]

No, I wasn't talking about composition because there is no point in getting bogged down with that.

You mentioned in your post (the emphasis is mine) that, "I don't think Johnny was hanging around watching Mike record his drum parts". That suggests that all 4 members would record entirely separately which is something that I have not heard suggested before.

The part you don't want to get bogged down in is sort of central to the discussion but I see what you mean about Mike recording. I don't honestly know how much of the music was recorded live but I'm sure tape was rolling while Mike was working on his parts, though possibly just to give him something to listen to and polish. Some bands at the time were taking a year or more to make an album and would spend days getting drum sounds. Then drums were recorded followed by bass, and the singing usually went on last. But those are bands who had enormous budgets and tended to release multi-platinum albums every three or four years. I'd imagine that The Smiths, like almost everyone else, recorded much faster and closer to live at the start, and then later spent more time and did more stitching together, but that's complete speculation. I'm just going by Mike's detailed description of what he was doing in the studio. Yes, he was recording apart from the band at times but were these the final tracks used on the record? I don't know. I do think some of it must have been because studio time is expensive but I don't know. Since we know Johnny did a lot of overdubs and stacking parts there would have definitely been opportunities to play along with the basic tracks while Johnny was coming up with or figuring out how best to play and record the overdubs. But that's speculation. I didn't mean to suggest they all recorded separately like they were Fleetwood Mac.

 

[countthree]

You can spill a lot of words to mask reality, but you seriously can't expect justice from a judicial system. It's just another social control method and its decisions are the result of a mix of power, inluence and money. Justice is an illusion. We must believe in that illusion in order to give our freedom, time and money to that charade.

 

[Cornflakes]

IMO, an evaluation of Mike as a drummer is really not relevant. It's just about fair dealing. He could have been the shittest drummer in history and the story would have been the same.

When he joined the Smiths, they were basically a garage band. The singer wasn't great (at that time, he wasn't), the bassist (Dale), by all accounts, was rubbish (although I'm sure he's a nice guy). They had two songs which, in fairness, were not Morrissey and Marr's finest and would hardly have made Top of the Pops seem imminent. They had no record deal and had never played a gig. So, Mike throws his lot in with them and, to the outside observer, he's a quarter of the band and so he gets a quarter of the money the band makes. He doesn't get songwriting royalties, unless he turns his hand to writing songs at some point, but as far as appearance fees and mechanical royalties go he gets an equal share, whether the band lasts three gigs or goes on to sell millions of albums. That's just the way it works. If Morrissey and Marr had said to him "by the way, the drummer is on 10%" and he had been stupid enough to accept, then maybe things would be different. But it would have been an absurd thing to bring up and he would have probably walked.

 

[Musician]

You can spill a lot of words to mask reality, but you seriously can't expect justice from a judicial system. It's just another social control method and its decisions are the result of a mix of power, inluence and money. Justice is an illusion. We must believe in that ilussion in order to give our freedom, time and money to that charade.

But, of course, had Morrissey won, you wouldn't think this.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

And that was never the dispute. We're discussing performance royalties and how they can be used as a way to ameliorate publishing royalties. But I think for you it comes down to "Morrissey good, Joyce bad. Me no like logic. Make big headache."

no headache here sweety ! it's never a dispute everyone knows Joyce lost, and I'm not talking about the court case.
You brought up composition/studio work in explanation to why they received the percentages they received, and I was discussing if what Mike brought to the songs can even be called composition.

 

[Charles Manson]

You can spill a lot of words to mask reality, but you seriously can't expect justice from a judicial system. It's just another social control method and its decisions are the result of a mix of power, inluence and money. Justice is an illusion. We must believe in that ilussion in order to give our freedom, time and money to that charade.

You said it, man! Helter skelter, right on.

 

[John Cage]

no headache here sweety ! it's never a dispute everyone knows Joyce lost, and I'm not talking about the court case.
You brought up composition/studio work in explanation to why they received the percentages they received, and I was discussing if what Mike brought to the songs can even be called composition.

Many bands split the royalties for composition and in the immortal words of James Brown, "Give the drummer some." If a drum track can't be part of a composition then what function does this break
[youtube]jOCNmimkFTs[/youtube]

play in this remix?

[youtube]ZtI4Znr7WS0[/youtube]

As far as what can be "called composition" if John Cage can notate four minutes and thirty-three seconds of silence then a drum track with a set tempo and recurring sections that can be notated in standard musical notation is obviously composition.

 

[countthree]

But, of course, had Morrissey won, you wouldn't think this.

It's not about Morrissey and Joyce, it's the way you must approach to judicial sentences if you don't want to get mad.

 

[Surface]

oh I agree the court case is closed. But Joyce is still Joyce. And Morrissey? .... he's doing very well.

And as far as composition goes... all that matters is what's in those little brackets under the songs title...
(Morrissey and Marr).

You know f*** all about how Mike Joyce is doing or how content he is. Do you think Morrissey is happier of has a more fulfilled life than Mike?

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

You know f*** all about how Mike Joyce is doing or how content he is. Do you think Morrissey is happier of has a more fulfilled life than Mike?

oh you again. Misreading my posts again.

I never said (in the post you replied to) that I knew how Joyce is doing or how content he isn't or is, please point out where I did? I thought so.

Think? Do I think that he has a happier or more fulfilled life than Mike? yes. Do I know? no. I'm only judging it by putting myself in their shoes and imaging which pair for ME would be more comfortable.

have a good one... SURFACE.

 

[Surface]

oh you again. Misreading my posts again.

I never said (in the post you replied to) that I knew how Joyce is doing or how content he isn't or is, please point out where I did? I thought so.

Think? Do I think that he has a happier or more fulfilled life than Mike? yes. Do I know? no. I'm only judging it by putting myself in their shoes and imaging which pair for ME would be more comfortable.

have a good one... SURFACE.

Your comment " but Joyce Is still Joyce and Morrissey he's doing very well" was the comment you made.

You do nothing but try to put the guy down for no other reason that you have your head so far up Morrisseys arse that you cannot see anything but dislike for someone who crossed him.

You say you image yourself in their shoes and and come to the conclusion that being Morrissey would make you more comfortable, on what basis, money, fame, the ability to write good lyrics?

MIke has been married for 35 years has a very comfortable lifestyle and is a very well liked man around Manchester.

He may not have the fame and fortune that Morrissey has but am pretty sure he is content with life.

 

[Anonymous]

Your comment " but Joyce Is still Joyce and Morrissey he's doing very well" was the comment you made.

You do nothing but try to put the guy down for no other reason that you have your head so far up Morrisseys arse that you cannot see anything but dislike for someone who crossed him.

You say you image yourself in their shoes and and come to the conclusion that being Morrissey would make you more comfortable, on what basis, money, fame, the ability to write good lyrics?

MIke has been married for 35 years has a very comfortable lifestyle and is a very well liked man around Manchester.

He may not have the fame and fortune that Morrissey has but am pretty sure he is content with life.

As much as I like Moz, I don't know one single person (including myself) who wants his life. Certainly, financial security and extensive traveling would be nice but this is not the point here. The conclusion of Neil McCormick's review of Autobiography was spot in that regard, describing it as "an access-all-areas pass to a rich inner world that you can admire but only a masochist would want to share".

 

[Anonymous]

Your comment " but Joyce Is still Joyce and Morrissey he's doing very well" was the comment you made.

You do nothing but try to put the guy down for no other reason that you have your head so far up Morrisseys arse that you cannot see anything but dislike for someone who crossed him.

You say you image yourself in their shoes and and come to the conclusion that being Morrissey would make you more comfortable, on what basis, money, fame, the ability to write good lyrics?

MIke has been married for 35 years has a very comfortable lifestyle and is a very well liked man around Manchester.

He may not have the fame and fortune that Morrissey has but am pretty sure he is content with life.

The thing that would change everything is if Morrissey said yes to Marr, they grab Rourke and a drummer, do a massive world tour, make millions, and Joyce is left at home. Until/unless that happens, Joyce Michael will remain pretty happy with his lot...

 

[Anonymous]

Joyce was crap without a drum machine to hide his flaws

 

[Musician]

Joyce was crap without a drum machine to hide his flaws

"Rank" proves pretty much the opposite

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

Your comment " but Joyce Is still Joyce and Morrissey he's doing very well" was the comment you made.

You do nothing but try to put the guy down for no other reason that you have your head so far up Morrisseys arse that you cannot see anything but dislike for someone who crossed him.

You say you image yourself in their shoes and and come to the conclusion that being Morrissey would make you more comfortable, on what basis, money, fame, the ability to write good lyrics?

MIke has been married for 35 years has a very comfortable lifestyle and is a very well liked man around Manchester.

He may not have the fame and fortune that Morrissey has but am pretty sure he is content with life.

'You do nothing but try to put the guy down for no other reason'

I don't feel that's really true, I'm just giving a different voice to the debate that always springs up which is the court case and M getting the short end of the stick, it's easy to demonize M, but where is Marr in all of this ? And why does he get little mention in this charade? It seems as another poster pointed out that what took place in that court room was a 'hit job' directed at M. And I feel there is a lot of truth in that comment. Of course this is my outsider view on the subject mixed with my own personal experience of my place in a world like ours.

Also I think Joyce is a fine enough drummer for what they needed. Though we'll never hear what it would sound like with another drummer. And I do believe, like Marr has said, that they should have been paid a little more than the 10 percent that M&M wanted to/did give to them.

'You say you image yourself in their shoes and and come to the conclusion that being Morrissey would make you more comfortable, on what basis, money, fame, the ability to write good lyrics?'

As we both touched on in older posts, I don't value the idea of success measured by the accumulation of money.
I am an artist, and like a lot of artists or just people who have outsider views or feel a little on the outside of what passes for 'normality' then to see someone who shares some of those views or feels themselves outside of what is defined as 'normal' and to also survive in a world like ours is quite inspiring and gives one hope to stick to ones guns and fight the good fight, which is being true to ones self no matter how much this world tries to crush you. And THAT is what I define as success.

'MIke has been married for 35 years has a very comfortable lifestyle and is a very well liked man around Manchester.'

I'm sure Mike is content with his life and most would look at that kind of life and agree that they would be content with that kind of life. But I don't find it very interesting, to say the least, nor would I define it as success.

 

[Musician]

M getting the short end of the stick, it's easy to demonize M, but where is Marr in all of this ? And why does he get little mention in this charade?

Possibly because Marr admitted his fault, paid his share and moved on, while Morrissey couldn't stop whining about it, writing godawful songs about it,and fill his book about it.

 

[Anonymous]

IMO, an evaluation of Mike as a drummer is really not relevant. It's just about fair dealing. He could have been the shittest drummer in history and the story would have been the same.

When he joined the Smiths, they were basically a garage band. The singer wasn't great (at that time, he wasn't), the bassist (Dale), by all accounts, was rubbish (although I'm sure he's a nice guy). They had two songs which, in fairness, were not Morrissey and Marr's finest and would hardly have made Top of the Pops seem imminent. They had no record deal and had never played a gig. So, Mike throws his lot in with them and, to the outside observer, he's a quarter of the band and so he gets a quarter of the money the band makes. He doesn't get songwriting royalties, unless he turns his hand to writing songs at some point, but as far as appearance fees and mechanical royalties go he gets an equal share, whether the band lasts three gigs or goes on to sell millions of albums. That's just the way it works. If Morrissey and Marr had said to him "by the way, the drummer is on 10%" and he had been stupid enough to accept, then maybe things would be different. But it would have been an absurd thing to bring up and he would have probably walked.

There's no place on this website for such rational, intelligent analysis

 

[Anonymous]

I don't know that marr admitted fault in the general sense but he accepted the verdict. Morrissey gets so much crap for and identified by the court case because of the song written about it and all the talking he did about it for better or worse