Hmmm...Well, I wonder?

Mr Reynolds

Active Member
Historian academic David Starkey appeared on BBC Newsnight last night and set twitter alight with his comments regarding British culture and recent disorder. As I watched I wondered what Morrissey would have thought and how much past commentary from him on culture might have chimed with Starkey? Part of me felt uncomfortable - that I could have imagined Morrissey saying the same kind of thing. Does anyone feel the same? Or do you think Moz would have disagreed on key points? I am genuinely curious on people's considered view of both Starkey and Moz.

Here is a link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU5TcTSa9kk
 

!Viva Hate!

pls scream inside your heart ⚧
Historian academic David Starkey appeared on BBC Newsnight last night and set twitter alight with his comments regarding British culture and recent disorder. As I watched I wondered what Morrissey would have thought and how much past commentary from him on culture might have chimed with Starkey? Part of me felt uncomfortable - that I could have imagined Morrissey saying the same kind of thing. Does anyone feel the same? Or do you think Moz would have disagreed on key points? I am genuinely curious on people's considered view of both Starkey and Moz.

Here is a link - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gU5TcTSa9kk

I think Morrissey thinks the same, but wouldn't be caught dead on TV saying so...

Starkey has more intellect in his little finger than any of the other 3 people on the stage, however, he allowed himself to fall into the old "what do you mean YOU people?" ploy that turned the focus of the show on one aspect of his point rather than let him finish the original question he was asked. Maybe if they hadn't interrupted him the whole time, there might have actually been a relevant and worthwhile discussion.
 

Mr Reynolds

Active Member
If he hadn't described a particular strain of criminal culture as 'black' he may have gotten away with it, but he didn't, if I've understood his quotes correctly he used skin colour to describe negative characteristics of a particular sub culture. If white people do bad things, they have become black. This seems like textbook racism to me.
 

!Viva Hate!

pls scream inside your heart ⚧
If he hadn't described a particular strain of criminal culture as 'black' he may have gotten away with it, but he didn't, if I've understood his quotes correctly he used skin colour to describe negative characteristics of a particular sub culture. If white people do bad things, they have become black. This seems like textbook racism to me.

Anyone who listened to what he had to say could clearly tell he wasn't intending to describe ALL black culture as violent. He misspoke and was pounced on for it for the remainder of the time without ever being able to fully explain his meaning. Prejudice does not equal racism, Mr. Reynolds.
 

King Leer

Leering since '97
Said in the voice of David Starkey: "You wouldn't have seen a Morrissey fan join that mob. Though Morrissey himself may be enjoying the chaos vicariously."
 

joe frady

Vile Refusenik
This really is the living end.
 
I agree with most of what he said. Just using the words "black" and "white" doesn't instantly make someone racist. Anyone with a brain knows what he meant.
If he'd said the word gangsta instead of black, everyone would have agreed.

The man is a cock, don't get me wrong, but he's not being racist. Just not choosing his words terribly carefully.
 

Mr Reynolds

Active Member
BREAKING NEWS: David Starkey claims the Peasant's Revolt of 1381 was "caused by black culture"
 

Mr Reynolds

Active Member
Even if it is true that white kids who form gangs like to imitate black culture, they would still be thugs if there were no black people in Britain. This thuggishness would simply manifest itself in another form.

David Starkey is being very irresponsible by making such statements at a time like this. The issue here is that some kids are becoming lawless and out of control. The outward cultural manifestations are not important, the fact that they are lawless is.
 
Even if it is true that white kids who form gangs like to imitate black culture, they would still be thugs if there were no black people in Britain. This thuggishness would simply manifest itself in another form.

David Starkey is being very irresponsible by making such statements at a time like this. The issue here is that some kids are becoming lawless and out of control. The outward cultural manifestations are not important, the fact that they are lawless is.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Black and white kids who copy this American gang "culture" are the most prominent public face of this 'thuggish' element in society these days, which is why they get referenced so much. It's not an issue of colour, it's just sheer stupidity and lack of respect. The terms black and white culture get brought in because they are simple, global terms that most people understand (which in turn enrages the left, PC brigade). As I said, if you have half a brain, you know what he is getting at.

But this debate could go on all day and solve nothing.
 

Mr Reynolds

Active Member
As I said, if you have half a brain, you know what he is getting at.

Starkey's points about young people bizarrely adopting an alien culture are worthy of discussion, though quite what you do about that I'm not sure. His other points, particularly the one about David Lammy sounding 'white', beggars belief.

Also on reflection I do not think it's particularly unusual to import ideas from overseas to create teenage subculture. A lot of the original elements of skinheads came from Jamaica.
 
Last edited:
Starkey's points about young people bizarrely adopting an alien culture are worthy of discussion, though quite what you do about that I'm not sure. His other points, particularly the one about David Lammy sounding 'white', beggars belief.

Also on reflection I do not think it's particularly unusual to import ideas from overseas to create teenage subculture. A lot of the original elements of skinheads came from Jamaica.

Yeah, me and my bredren were saying the same ting last night, ya hear.
 

Mr Reynolds

Active Member
David Lammy is from Tottenham; he sounds like a chap from Tottenham(ish). He doesn't sound 'white'. It's as daft as saying someone sounds Catholic.
 
Here in America we do not refer to it as Black gang culture. We refer to as a segment of the population that emulates European football hooliganism.

Sent from my iPhone using Forum Runner

You also call aluminium "a-loo-min-um", films "movies", crisps "chips" and spell a multitude of words incorrectly, but let's not turn this into an issue of cultural difference.. ohhh.. wait.....
 

cornelius blaze

Boychild mustn't tremble!
Here in America we do not refer to it as Black gang culture. We refer to as a segment of the population that emulates European football hooliganism.

 

Cornflakes

"A bit iffy" ★★☆☆☆ - AV Club
Morrissey probably thinks:

1) the riots were caused by Prince Charles;

2) the riots were nothing compared to the chaos and disorder caused every day by the failure of Altrincham Sainsbury's to prominently indicate what on its cheese counter does and does not contain animal rennet;

3) the riots were completely justified, because how else can someone on an average income get their hands on pair of Stella McCartney faux suede boots?;

4) petty thugs should get back to saying things like "oi, mister, give us yer pocketwatch or I'll smack yer in yer bloomin' boat" like they used to in black and white films.
 

Cornflakes

"A bit iffy" ★★☆☆☆ - AV Club
I should add, for fear of being accused of missing the point of the thread, that David Starkey is obviously as thick as pigshit and the fact that he ever gets invited onto TV shows to give his ill-informed and worthless opinions is more than enough justification for any degree of civil unrest.
 
G

goinghome

Guest
Artists have some social licence to be statistically imprecise, acting more as emotional harbingers by pointing out altered features of a situation, like canaries in a coalmine. But historians trade in facts, so for an acclaimed professional to air these views is quite disgraceful. The reality is that sporadic volatility is business as usual in the UK:

...Throughout history the English (as Scotland’s first minister, Alex Salmond, pointed out on Wednesday) have protested about everything and anything, from the price of theatre tickets to the cost of a meat pie to the results of football matches. There have been riots in every major city since the industrial revolution made cities too large and too populous to govern. In the countryside, rural rioting and hayrick burning were common events.

For those with only a vague knowledge of alternative British history, it may come as a surprise that there have been two Welsh uprisings, one lowland Scottish civil war, a number of Scottish crofters’ rebellions, one uprising in Derbyshire and another in Kent. Numerous attempts have been made to assassinate the entire cabinet and seize London, and there have been a number of plots to murder the royal family.

There has also been an almost continuous history of nationalist freedom movements, from the Fenians of the 1860s to the tartan army of the 1970s and revolutionary groups operating in Wales, Cornwall and the Isle of Man during the 1980s. Beneath the surface of British liberalism, the population often turns out to be more vociferous and aggressive than expected...
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0813/1224302363974.html

James C. Davies, a social scientist who wrote about why people riot, determined in the '70s that newly experienced scarcity is a primary cause of political turmoil and violence, after a careful study of centuries of uprisings and rebellions - http://books.google.com/books/about/When_men_revolt_and_why.html?id=bm3VNPlOTQoC . Once oppression lifts and a taste is had of greater bounties and freedom, any powers (or parent) who move to re-impose limits on such a population (or child) will have a battle on their hands.

Concentrating on finding a single cause can be a bad idea, as Joe Pine found out. The conservative 1960s talk show host from Pennsylvania was confrontational with guests on his show and often attempted to throw them off-balance by opening the conversation with an insult. Some blamed this on bitterness after he lost a leg while serving in the Marine Corps during World War II, when he earned three service stars. Pyne supported the Vietnam War and ridiculed hippies (a favorite target) and the women's movement, an attitude that backfired when he began a dialogue with Frank Zappa by saying, 'So I guess your long hair makes you a woman.'

Zappa responded pronto with 'So I guess your wooden leg makes you a table.'"
 
Top Bottom