His hallowed name mentioned in two articles.

C

Cili

Guest
Article on The Slits:

Phew. Splat. Viv was doing a handstand. In mid-air. I had been eating glass, as you do, or did, and was bleeding from the mouth. A few fans and locals were standing around and falling over. We appeared to be in a real time real life film about the bloody birth of punk rock where everything was moving really fast and then stopping quick and then going in and out of focus. No one seemed to be speaking any words as such, although everyone was talking. Noise. Not noise. All at once. I tried to ask the group a few questions and they all laughed at me. Together. Untogether. "Shut up! Do your homework! Is that the best question you can think of!" Their laughter was like their music. Shrill. Earthy. Scary. Yet, f*ck it, lovely. I tried to find out where on earth they had come from. Where were they going. They laughed some more and then sulked. Together. Untogether. Then laughed. Then ignored me. Then Ari hit me in the mouth. Bizarrely, this stopped the bleeding. Someone over there fell over. I think it was Morrissey. He had a look on his face that suggested he thought he was in a room with The New York Dolls' sisters.

[Before anyone begins ranting about this journalist's style of writing, it's mimicking the style of Gertrude Stein. I thought it was cute, though I'm not a big Gertrude Stein fan.]

* * * * * * * * * *

Article on Orange Juice:

The best band to emerge from Scotland's Postcard label (which also released records by Aztec Camera, Josef K and, briefly, Australia's Go-Betweens), Orange Juice were innovators in fey but raw janglepop, owing a debt to The Byrds and the Velvets while paying lip service to The Chic Organisation and Philly Soul. Orange Juice cut the sort of singles that would later pave the way for The Smiths, whose Morrissey would take Juice frontman Edwyn Collins' Wilean wit and waggish demeanor to new foppish extremes (of course, in Collins' eyes, his group had more in common with soul brother Al Green - indeed, they covered Green's "L.O.V.E. Love" the following year).

[Through six degrees of separation, we can actually now connect Morrissey to Al Green! Just like Morrissey, I hear Al is "Tired of Being Alone."]


 
R

Ruffian

Guest
Re: Gertrude Stein and 'Orange Juice'..

> [Before anyone begins ranting about this journalist's style of
> writing, it's mimicking the style of Gertrude Stein. I thought
> it was cute, though I'm not a big Gertrude Stein fan.]

PLease tell me about what you know about Gertrude Stein.. Her name is used very prominently in the chorus of Idlewilds 'Roseability'.. Which is a great song in itself... and have been long curious about who she was/is..

Also, can someone confirm that the original name of JFK airport was 'Idlewild'.. just another trivia thing I need confirmed..

> Article on Orange Juice:

I agree Orange Juice were superb.. who can forget gems such as 'What Presence', 'Salmon Fishing in New York', 'Felicity', and of course the hit 'Rip It Up'.. But to say they influence Morrissey would be far to grand a claim... from my recollection (without my Musical Year book to hand!!) they came on the scene pretty much at the same time.. I would say they were unique and didn't help each other make their unique sound..

..The Associates deserve some credit for this period of flux in British Rock Music, along with the sound (but not the style) of Big Country, The spirit of Bauhaus, and early U2, Human League, and even Simple Minds... the formative years of Brit alternative and indie music..
 
R

russ t

Guest
STIFF

I think the influences on Morrissey are before the early 80s in Britain.

The wonderful Stiff label, which gave us such classics as Lene Lovich, Ian Dury, Rachel Sweet, Kirsty MacColl etc. in the latter half of the 70s was a great label and signified a great time in British music.

Dury especially combined witty, wry lyrics with superb musicianship from the Blockheads.... many of his songs I think could account for some of Morrissey's finer lyrics.

Also MacColl who, in my opinion, ranks with Difford and Tilbrook and Jagger and Richards as Britain's finest songwriter.

Madness, too, were wonderful at this.

And both Madness and MacColl later worked with Moz.

It's wonderful that The Associates are still being acknowledged.... a wonderful band, and Billy Mackenzie was surely Britain's finest voice. For anyone that hasn't read it, his biography 'The Glamour Chase' is a wonderful observation of a tortured soul who was given similar treatment to Morrissey by the music industry.

> PLease tell me about what you know about Gertrude Stein.. Her
> name is used very prominently in the chorus of Idlewilds
> 'Roseability'.. Which is a great song in itself... and have been
> long curious about who she was/is..

> Also, can someone confirm that the original name of JFK airport
> was 'Idlewild'.. just another trivia thing I need confirmed..

> I agree Orange Juice were superb.. who can forget gems such as
> 'What Presence', 'Salmon Fishing in New York', 'Felicity', and
> of course the hit 'Rip It Up'.. But to say they influence
> Morrissey would be far to grand a claim... from my recollection
> (without my Musical Year book to hand!!) they came on the scene
> pretty much at the same time.. I would say they were unique and
> didn't help each other make their unique sound..

> ..The Associates deserve some credit for this period of flux in
> British Rock Music, along with the sound (but not the style) of
> Big Country, The spirit of Bauhaus, and early U2, Human League,
> and even Simple Minds... the formative years of Brit alternative
> and indie music..
 
R

russ t

Guest
OH, AND THE BUZZCOCKS, OF COURSE

Pete Shelley was the 70s answer to Morrissey.... only even camper and more cutting.

> I think the influences on Morrissey are before the early 80s in
> Britain.

> The wonderful Stiff label, which gave us such classics as Lene
> Lovich, Ian Dury, Rachel Sweet, Kirsty MacColl etc. in the
> latter half of the 70s was a great label and signified a great
> time in British music.

> Dury especially combined witty, wry lyrics with superb
> musicianship from the Blockheads.... many of his songs I think
> could account for some of Morrissey's finer lyrics.

> Also MacColl who, in my opinion, ranks with Difford and Tilbrook
> and Jagger and Richards as Britain's finest songwriter.

> Madness, too, were wonderful at this.

> And both Madness and MacColl later worked with Moz.

> It's wonderful that The Associates are still being
> acknowledged.... a wonderful band, and Billy Mackenzie was
> surely Britain's finest voice. For anyone that hasn't read it,
> his biography 'The Glamour Chase' is a wonderful observation of
> a tortured soul who was given similar treatment to Morrissey by
> the music industry.
 
B

Billy Budd

Guest
> Article on The Slits:

> Phew. Splat. Viv was doing a handstand. In mid-air. I had been
> eating glass, as you do, or did, and was bleeding from the
> mouth. A few fans and locals were standing around and falling
> over. We appeared to be in a real time real life film about the
> bloody birth of punk rock where everything was moving really
> fast and then stopping quick and then going in and out of focus.
> No one seemed to be speaking any words as such, although
> everyone was talking. Noise. Not noise. All at once. I tried to
> ask the group a few questions and they all laughed at me.
> Together. Untogether. "Shut up! Do your homework! Is that
> the best question you can think of!" Their laughter was
> like their music. Shrill. Earthy. Scary. Yet, f*ck it, lovely. I
> tried to find out where on earth they had come from. Where were
> they going. They laughed some more and then sulked. Together.
> Untogether. Then laughed. Then ignored me. Then Ari hit me in
> the mouth. Bizarrely, this stopped the bleeding. Someone over
> there fell over. I think it was Morrissey. He had a look on his
> face that suggested he thought he was in a room with The New
> York Dolls' sisters.

> [Before anyone begins ranting about this journalist's style of
> writing, it's mimicking the style of Gertrude Stein. I thought
> it was cute, though I'm not a big Gertrude Stein fan.]

> * * * * * * * * * *

> Article on Orange Juice:

> The best band to emerge from Scotland's Postcard label (which
> also released records by Aztec Camera, Josef K and, briefly,
> Australia's Go-Betweens), Orange Juice were innovators in fey
> but raw janglepop, owing a debt to The Byrds and the Velvets
> while paying lip service to The Chic Organisation and Philly
> Soul. Orange Juice cut the sort of singles that would later pave
> the way for The Smiths, whose Morrissey would take Juice
> frontman Edwyn Collins' Wilean wit and waggish demeanor to new
> foppish extremes (of course, in Collins' eyes, his group had
> more in common with soul brother Al Green - indeed, they covered
> Green's "L.O.V.E. Love" the following year).

> [Through six degrees of separation, we can actually now connect
> Morrissey to Al Green! Just like Morrissey, I hear Al is
> "Tired of Being Alone."]

Don't you just luv The Slits, that front cover of 'The Cut' LP, OOOO yes please.

Orange Juice were on TOTP2 Last night, never really got the success they deserved, although it's nice to see them getting acknowledged today.
 
L

Little Miss Curious

Guest
"Hey listen! I step down to the arcade.. and I see my reflection in the window.."

> I agree Orange Juice were superb.. who can forget gems such as
> 'What Presence', 'Salmon Fishing in New York', 'Felicity', and
> of course the hit 'Rip It Up'.. But to say they influence
> Morrissey would be far to grand a claim... from my recollection
> (without my Musical Year book to hand!!) they came on the scene
> pretty much at the same time.. I would say they were unique and
> didn't help each other make their unique sound..

I've read some letters Morrissey wrote to a penpal when he was young.. and I remember him saying he went to see Orange Juice and he thought they were awful.

Stupid boy! Just shows how deluded he can be sometimes.. Orange Juice are fabulous! Did anyone see them on TOPT2 yesterday? Aw, Edwyn looked so nervous. It was lovely.

LMC x
 
R

russ t

Guest
Re: STIFF also gave us Wreckless Eric

It was a great label.

Gave us Jona Lewie, too...... ahem.
 
R

Ruffian

Guest
Re: Proud of the British alternative scene.. Eddie and the Hot Rods..

> Don't you just luv The Slits, that front cover of 'The Cut' LP,
> OOOO yes please.

I almost went blind to it..

> Orange Juice were on TOTP2 Last night, never really got the
> acknowledged today.

Edwin Collins was lovely wasn't he.. even an early quiff..

You know.. it makes me proud of the British music scene and our rock heritage when I start reading the comments and recalling the rebel days of early new wave/punk/alternative bands and the characters around the scene..

..and eventually giving birth to the Smiths of course!!

We could do with some of that attitude today..

And can I mention another absolute calssic 'must hear' song... that still makes my skin tingle today..

'Do Anything You Wanna Do' - Eddie and the Hot Rods..

PS, I may post the Ruffian and his crew pictures from V2001 soon.. so be warned..
 
L

Librarian on Fire

Guest
Re: Gertrude Stein and 'Orange Juice'..

> I agree Orange Juice were superb.. who can forget gems such as
> 'What Presence', 'Salmon Fishing in New York', 'Felicity', and
> of course the hit 'Rip It Up'.. But to say they influence
> Morrissey would be far to grand a claim... from my recollection
> (without my Musical Year book to hand!!) they came on the scene
> pretty much at the same time.. I would say they were unique and
> didn't help each other make their unique sound..

Just on a side note the band Ivy NYC, (not to be confused with the band Ivy who were on the Bristol run Sarah Label) released a lovely cover of the song "I Guess I'm Just A Little To Sensitive". If your a fan of good indie female vocalists then this is worth checking out. The singer Dominque also looks a little bit like Nigella Lawson as well, if you squint. Ivy NYC are now I think "between record deals" which is a shame because they produced some fantastic pop songs and were one of the the very few American bands which had a Englishness to their music and indie style.
 
T

The Magic Fairy

Guest
Orange Juice

> I agree Orange Juice were superb.. But to say they influence
> Morrissey would be far to grand a claim... from my recollection
> they came on the scene pretty much at the same time.. I would say
> they were unique and didn't help each other make their unique sound..

Not strictly true. Orange Juice's debut single emerged in early 1980, a couple of years before Morrissey and Marr got together. By March 1981, OJ had released their hugely influential 4 singles on Postcard. This sound had a huge impact on the early 80s indie scene, acting as a blueprint for the jangly sound that Johnny Marr later developed. Orange Juice's debut album came out in Feb 1982, just in time for The Smiths to have a listen!

TMF
 
C

Cili

Guest
All Stein, all the time.

> PLease tell me about what you know about Gertrude Stein.. Her
> name is used very prominently in the chorus of Idlewilds
> 'Roseability'.. Which is a great song in itself... and have been
> long curious about who she was/is..

Hi Ruffian. By no means am I an expert on Gertrude Stein or her life, but I know some things from what I've read. She was a very influential American (athough she lived her most influential years in Paris from what I understand) writer, a contemporary of, a friend to, and an influence on Ernest Hemingway amongst others. Stein and Hemingway grew to become very close friends I think. I'm sorry I can't be more certain. Gertrude Stein had a very interesting approach to writing--I find her literal philosophy much more appealing than her actual writing. She considered her writing to be like (this isn't a Stein quote) "verbal paintings" of sorts, and she took her largest influences on not other writers but painters, most notably Picasso who was also a contemporary of hers. Her most famous writings mimic Picasso's cubism paintings from what I understand. The terseness, broken rhythm, and repetition (all used by that journalist in my original posting) all are Stein's ways of creating an abstraction of an abstract, her interpretation of cubism in words. My introduction to the world of Gertrude Stein began with her difficult "Three Lives," and I thought it was awful. Her style was just too much for me, being relatively uninitiated. I am looking forward to one day reading her most famous work, "The Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas," but that's the last chance I'm giving her. I know it's almost impious to utter bad words about Gertrude Stein given that she's so revered and deemed influential, but I simply do not enjoy her style even though I give her a lot of credit for trying something so different. She was definitely a very original writer, but I find that Stein's writing is more a case of style over substance. Although admittedly, again, I'm no expert on her work. She is credited however, with leading Hemingway towards his now famous terseness of style. Apparently Stein had cultivated his work to some degree through their friendship, and ultimately had a hand in making Hemingway what he eventually became. I know that she was also somehow associated with Pablo Picasso as well, but I don't know that story.

One of the more amusing Gertrude Stein anecdotes that I recall is from her days at school. She was in a philosophy class, and on the day of her final exam she simply wrote atop her paper that she didn't feel like taking an exam that day. Her professor wrote her back that sometimes he feels the same way, and gave her the highest mark in his class.

"I write for myself..."

--Gertrude Stein

"...and for strangers."

Cili.

P.S. I can't say for sure whether or not everything I've written is totally accurate because I'm going off of memory. But I'm *fairly* certain. If anyone reading this can, please correct me where I'm wrong.


 
T

The Magic Fairy

Guest
Magazine

Yes! Yes! Magazine. By a strange coincidence, I was playing some stuff of theirs a couple of days ago. I was planning a compilation tape and picked "My Mind Ain't So Open" (wonderfully frantic b-side to debut single "Shot by Both Sides"). Then I listened to "Rhythm of Cruelty", which is one of my faves. I sing it to myself when I'm cycling. Star man, Mr Devoto.

TMF
 
R

Ruffian

Guest
Re: All Stein, all the time.

Cili.. well, what can I say..? I am impressed by this post. I read it last night and it made me think in a good way.. just before bed.. What an excellent write up.. OK, it was a little rambling, yet provides a pretty good undersanding of who Stein was.. I appreciate the time and effort.

Keep on keeping on..
Ruffian.
 
R

Ruffian

Guest
Re: Gertrude Stein and 'Orange Juice'..

Hi L.O.F., You seem to have your finger on the pulse.. 'Ivy NYC' sounds intriguing.. Would you do a tape.. just maybe?? I'd of course reciprocate with an essential Ruffian mix !!
 
L

Librarian on Fire

Guest
Re: Gertrude Stein and 'Orange Juice'..

> Hi L.O.F., You seem to have your finger on the pulse.. 'Ivy NYC'
> sounds intriguing.. Would you do a tape.. just maybe?? I'd of
> course reciprocate with an essential Ruffian mix !!

One compilation tape made up on a wet Sunday afternoon with Ivy on if. If you're still intrested please check your email inbox. Can I have "The Ace Of Spades" on the tape? Elbow, what's the verdict?
 
L

Lawrence Mikkelsen

Guest
Re: Orange Juice

I've always thought "You Can't hide Your Love Forever" was the ultimate proto-Smiths album. Teen angst, sexually ambigeous lyrics, iconic sleeve, jangly guitar. I remember reading an interview with Edwyn from around '84 asking him what he thought abouyt The Smiths stealing their (OJ's) sound, and Edwyn replied "This Charming Man" i as good a Byrds rip-off as "Simply Thrilled Honey" was.

Orange Juice never produced a canon of albums as brilliant as The Smiths, but "You Can't hide Your Love Forever" is a must for all Smiths fans, as is the Postcard singles compilation "The Heather's On Fire" (if you can find it .... it goes for a fortune on eBay)
 
L

Little Miss Curious

Guest
Tender Object

> I've always thought "You Can't hide Your Love Forever"
> was the ultimate proto-Smiths album. Teen angst, sexually
> ambigeous lyrics, iconic sleeve, jangly guitar. I remember
> reading an interview with Edwyn from around '84 asking him what
> he thought abouyt The Smiths stealing their (OJ's) sound, and
> Edwyn replied "This Charming Man" i as good a Byrds
> rip-off as "Simply Thrilled Honey" was.

> Orange Juice never produced a canon of albums as brilliant as
> The Smiths, but "You Can't hide Your Love Forever" is
> a must for all Smiths fans, as is the Postcard singles
> compilation "The Heather's On Fire" (if you can find
> it .... it goes for a fortune on eBay)

Oi! I should've said that. It's one of my favourite albums.

Congratulations for getting there first though..

LMC x
 
L

Lawrence Mikkelsen

Guest
Re: Tender Object

> Oi! I should've said that. It's one of my favourite albums.

which one? "You Can't hide your Love Forever" or "The Heather's On Fire". Another good one to listen to is "Ostrich Churchyard", which *would* have been OJ's debut album if they hadn't been signed to Polydor. It has a similar tracklist to "YCHYLF", but the versions of the roungs are rougher and less "slick". The whole album was recorded in a day, and is FANTASTIC.

(oh, and nice to meet another OJ fan .....)

Lawrence
 
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