Here's how it felt to grow up as a black indie fan in 90s Britain by Josh Surtees - NOISEY

http://noisey.vice.com/en_uk/blog/w...fan-in-90s-britain?utm_source=noiseytwitteruk

Christ who cares....
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
HEAR HEAR ! :thumb:



" simply in the voice on all of those songs, on 'Asian Rut' or 'Bengali In Platforms' or 'The National Front Disco', one can plainly hear that here is no hate at all "

Yes, dear. I recognize now that your delusions are second hand. The funny part is that he is avoiding the actual issue and talking nonsense. Racism doesn't necessarily have to be hate, and the sort of pity he shows to "Bengali In Platforms" HAS been carefully diagrammed to show how it's racist. Of course that is an old quote but do you really think he sat and gave anyone a chance to discuss this with him? I don't. He's an habitual liar, as the real story about the behind the scenes events of #ParisForProfit show. "Devious, truculent, and unreliable," right?
 

countthree

Well-Known Member
I love Bengali in Platforms. It's a strong critique of the racist society of those times (it was recorded during 1987). It seems there was a change during the last 3 decades.

Leaving aside the skin color, which is a big issue in some self called first world countries, the fact of being an immigrant is very difficult anywhere in the world. Very few migrate by choice, most are pushed into it by economical and political circumstances. Not surprisingly, exile was considered the worst punishment in ancient times. Personally, I admire poor inmigrants, I don't know if I could make it if I had to begin a new life without money in another country. It's a huge challenge.
 

Famous when dead

Vulgarian
Moderator
I love Bengali in Platforms. It's a strong critique of the racist society of those times (it was recorded during 1987). It seems there was a change during the last 3 decades.

Leaving aside the skin color, which is a big issue in some self called first world countries, the fact of being an immigrant is very difficult anywhere in the world. Very few migrate by choice, most are pushed into it by economical and political circumstances. Not surprisingly, exile was considered the worst punishment in ancient times. Personally, I admire poor inmigrants, I don't know if I could make it if I had to begin a new life without money in another country. It's a huge challenge.

Um... Ok.
Being very much alive in 1987, I would like to know where 'racist society' comes from. I was more upset about The Smiths breaking up than race issues. I don't believe the average NME reader of the time was listening to John Peel and then going out assaulting Bengalis (a racial group well established in the UK already).
The song is simply about trying to fit in - hardly a critique of the times - the music of the Eighties is anything but racist and reflected very diverse influences.
Emigration / immigration is a choice to leave/move elsewhere - thousands of not at all poor people do it yearly - are you are confusing that with asylum seekers and refugees?
Regards,
FWD
 
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Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member

es, dear. I recognize now that your delusions are second hand.That's just your opinion. The funny part is that he is avoiding the actual issue and talking nonsense.Again,your opinion. Racism doesn't necessarily have to be hate,then what else can it be If not hate? and the sort of pity he shows to "Bengali In Platforms" HAS been carefully diagrammed to show how it's racist.Really?I'd like to see that diagram. Of course that is an old quote but do you really think he sat and gave anyone a chance to discuss this with him? I don't. He's an habitual liar, as the real story about the behind the scenes events of #ParisForProfit show. "Devious, truculent, and unreliable," More opinions right? right

You said that we can tell what he means in the song "Bengali In Platforms" by his voice. In this old interview years before you wrote that, he said the same thing. This is not my opinion. It's something that happened. This is why I said your delusions are second hand.

You say it's my opinion that he is avoiding the issue. He is. He is asked if the songs are racist and instead of saying they aren't, he says that no one has ever shown him how they are racist.

Racism doesn't mean hate. The extreme racists do little damage because few people agree with lynching or burning crosses. or using racist language. But the casual racism of believing that someone doesn't "belong here" is acceptable to many and relegates the immigrant to a lesser status in an acceptable way.

"Devious, truculent, and unreliable" is an opinion, but it carries a little more weight than that of someone just trying to get a rise out of Morrissey fans. It is unusual language for a judge to use, and that judge was intimately aware of Morrissey's dealings, and his typical methods of operation. Morrissey lied in his TTY statement about the Paris re-release. He lied about this "David Joseph at Universal Music in London has refused the request made by Morrissey and the band to re-issue 'I'm Throwing My Arms Around Paris' as a loving tribute to the lives lost in the Paris atrocities. David Joseph is instead arranging his own tribute to Paris utilizing his current crop of Universal artists."

As we all know, he was given permission to re-release the song. He simply was asked to show what the plan was to donate the money, something that was never mentioned by Morrissey. And we know that Boz is the one that sent the letter, and that the letter nowhere says there is a request from Morrissey, but simply seems to assume that such a re-release would be obvious.

That's all been picked apart far too much on another thread, but that shows that while, deviously a direct lie was skirted, the message posted on TTY, is definitely not what actually occurred, and at best is (purposely?) misleading.
 

countthree

Well-Known Member
Um... Ok.
Being very much alive in 1987, I would like to know where 'racist society' comes from. I was more upset about The Smiths breaking up than race issues. I don't believe the average NME reader of the time was listening to John Peel and then going out assaulting Bengalis (a racial group well established in the UK already).
The song is simply about trying to fit in - hardly a critique of the times - the music of the Eighties is anything but racist and reflected very diverse influences.
Emigration / immigration is a choice to leave/move elsewhere - thousands of not at all poor people do it yearly - are you are confusing that with asylum seekers and refugees?
Regards,
FWD

Breathing during 1987, too, I believe racism is not only about KKK and assaults. Sometimes, the need to "fit in" comes from the fact the society doesn't provide a person a comfortable place to reside, and I'm not talking about a piece of land or a house. A part of social integration comes from material welfare (covered basic needs). But there's another component that many societies fail to provide to their inmigrants: respect, acceptance of cultural differences, etc.

Most inmigrants are looking desperately for something (material or not) they don't have where "they belong". Migration of middle class people may seem less desperate and urgent, but their needs are as important as basic material needs. They can be looking for freedom, education, dignity, a less class-conscious society, career development, sexual freedom or whatever a person may consider imperative to have a decent life.

I'm not confusing inmigrants with asylum seekers or refugees. These people have a different legal category and in most countries are covered by ad-hoc international legislation.

Far from being racist, music of the eighties was a big tool of integration :)
 

BrummieBoy

BrummieBoy
Yawn.

Morrissey trolled racists, holier-than-thou Grauniad types then totally f***ed up beyond repair with the sup-species nadir.

'The National Front Disco' is a perfect song to exhume for #Brexit 'going forward' I'm sure he'll troll that topic in due course, probably as part of his Mayoral campaign. It might actually be amusing.

BB
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
I have no idea what you're going on about there. Also,I did answer.

Right. Morrissey is the one who didn't answer. "Is 'Bengali In Platforms' racist?" "No one ever explained to me how it was. Listen to my voice."

"National Front Disco" seems to work either way. If you assume Morrissey is not sympathetic to the National Front, which is how I always heard it, then it does seem to be "trolling racists" but then when you find years later that some of his views align so perfectly with British nationalism that they can be used in their advertising, unaltered and with no change of meaning due to being "taken out of context," you can hear it differently. Some people hear "England for the English" as a statement of nationalist pride, and with his comments on "the floodgates" of immigration, are they wrong?
I don't think he ever discussed this with anyone from the media. He just said "listen to my voice."
It's his right not to publicly dissect or discuss the meanings of his work, but he does discuss it if the carefully chosen journalist he is speaking with is not going to challenge him. He is or was an expert at working the media and he knows generally what he can get away with. Once in a while, like with #ParisForProfit, he is challenged and his position crumbles.
 

Flibberty

Well-Known Member
Right. Morrissey is the one who didn't answer. "Is 'Bengali In Platforms' racist?" "No one ever explained to me how it was. Listen to my voice."

"National Front Disco" seems to work either way. If you assume Morrissey is not sympathetic to the National Front, which is how I always heard it, then it does seem to be "trolling racists" but then when you find years later that some of his views align so perfectly with British nationalism that they can be used in their advertising, unaltered and with no change of meaning due to being "taken out of context," you can hear it differently. Some people hear "England for the English" as a statement of nationalist pride, and with his comments on "the floodgates" of immigration, are they wrong?
I don't think he ever discussed this with anyone from the media. He just said "listen to my voice."
It's his right not to publicly dissect or discuss the meanings of his work, but he does discuss it if the carefully chosen journalist he is speaking with is not going to challenge him. He is or was an expert at working the media and he knows generally what he can get away with. Once in a while, like with #ParisForProfit, he is challenged and his position crumbles.

:lbf:

I think bringing up a comment made many years later, when you consider the disaster that the EU has been in many ways, is irrelevant. Anyone with any sense agrees that immigration is good but uncontrolled immigration is bad. In 1992 we had the former state and when Morrissey made his 'floodgate' comment the situation had changed considerably.
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
:lbf:

I think bringing up a comment made many years later, when you consider the disaster that the EU has been in many ways, is irrelevant. Anyone with any sense agrees that immigration is good but uncontrolled immigration is bad. In 1992 we had the former state and when Morrissey made his 'floodgate' comment the situation had changed considerably.

Maybe but I'm just going by what he has said, previous to 1992.
http://motorcycleaupairboy.com/songs/bengali.htm

Thus Spake Morrissey
Regarding the line in "Bengali In Platforms": "Shelve your Western plans/And understand/That life is hard enough when you belong here". Don't you think the song could be taken as condescending?

"Yeeeees... I do think it could be taken that way, and another journalist has said that it probably will. But it's not being deliberately provocative. It's just about people who, in order to be embraced or feel at home, buy the most absurd English clothes." - Morrissey, Melody Maker, 3/12/88

Oh, okay...

and
Was it intended to have a double edge?

No, it still doesn't, not at all. There are many people who are so obsessed wtih racism that one can't mention the word Bengali; it instantly becomes a racist song, even if you're saying, Bengali, marry me. But I still can't see any silent racism there."


Not even with the line, "Life is hard enough when you belong here"?
"Well, it is, isn't it?"
True, but that implies that Bengalis don't belong here, which isn't a very global view of the world.
"In a sense it's true. And I think that's almost true for anybody. If you went to Yugoslavia tomorrow, you'd probably feel that you didn't belong there." - Morrissey, Sounds, June 18, 1988

So, not so much racist as nationalist. People who go to other countries don't belong and feel they don't belong. And they buy absurd clothes. Okay.

After a while a pattern emerges, and you can make up a million interpretations of how each individual instance might mean something other than the interpretations most people who are not fans arrive at, and that's up to the listener to decide for themselves I guess.
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
but I did answer in post #11 ....

I don't know how to explain this to you. I never accused you of not answering. Morrissey is the one who didn't answer. I wrote the exact same thing above though, so this seems pointless. Good luck. You can interpret his answer however you'd like to. Have you ever known anyone who lies in real life? Instead of a denial they will say, "What would make you think that?" and if you tell them why you think that they will say "believe what you want." But you're not going to get it, so :thumb:

The rest of what you wrote goes against what he himself said in the interview I quoted. You can "hear" whatever you'd like to. :crazy: :thumb:
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
'I never accused you of not answering.' ?

I said Morrissey didn't answer. For the third time. Yes, you read it that way, and then I explained it. Twice. :head-smack:

You also quoted me and changed what I wrote. :confused:

And it's sort of the entire point what Morrissey meant when he wrote the song. I didn't realize that we were talking about what you would mean if you were to say those words. Now that we've cleared that up. :thumb:
 

Flibberty

Well-Known Member
Maybe but I'm just going by what he has said, previous to 1992.
http://motorcycleaupairboy.com/songs/bengali.htm

Thus Spake Morrissey
Regarding the line in "Bengali In Platforms": "Shelve your Western plans/And understand/That life is hard enough when you belong here". Don't you think the song could be taken as condescending?

"Yeeeees... I do think it could be taken that way, and another journalist has said that it probably will. But it's not being deliberately provocative. It's just about people who, in order to be embraced or feel at home, buy the most absurd English clothes." - Morrissey, Melody Maker, 3/12/88

Oh, okay...

and
Was it intended to have a double edge?

No, it still doesn't, not at all. There are many people who are so obsessed wtih racism that one can't mention the word Bengali; it instantly becomes a racist song, even if you're saying, Bengali, marry me. But I still can't see any silent racism there."


Not even with the line, "Life is hard enough when you belong here"?
"Well, it is, isn't it?"
True, but that implies that Bengalis don't belong here, which isn't a very global view of the world.
"In a sense it's true. And I think that's almost true for anybody. If you went to Yugoslavia tomorrow, you'd probably feel that you didn't belong there." - Morrissey, Sounds, June 18, 1988

So, not so much racist as nationalist. People who go to other countries don't belong and feel they don't belong. And they buy absurd clothes. Okay.

After a while a pattern emerges, and you can make up a million interpretations of how each individual instance might mean something other than the interpretations most people who are not fans arrive at, and that's up to the listener to decide for themselves I guess.

It must be said that your comments in this thread seem only tangentially linked to the OP and for you to suddenly be bringing out these hoary 28 year old quotes is rather odd. I`m really not sure there is anything new to be said about a forgettable song like 'Bengali in Platforms'.

As you have presumably listened to Morrissey's music for many years however, I presume you are aware that this song fits in perfectly with the likes of 'November Spawned a Monster', 'Mute Witness', 'Michael's Bones', 'Ambitious Outsiders' etc. It discusses an aspect of society not often mentioned in song, yet doesn't heavy-handedly come down on the side of right or wrong. That is what Morrissey has been doing since 'Suffer Little Children' and before.
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
It must be said that your comments in this thread seem only tangentially linked to the OP and for you to suddenly be bringing out these hoary 28 year old quotes is rather odd. I`m really not sure there is anything new to be said about a forgettable song like 'Bengali in Platforms'.

As you have presumably listened to Morrissey's music for many years however, I presume you are aware that this song fits in perfectly with the likes of 'November Spawned a Monster', 'Mute Witness', 'Michael's Bones', 'Ambitious Outsiders' etc. It discusses an aspect of society not often mentioned in song, yet doesn't heavy-handedly come down on the side of right or wrong. That is what Morrissey has been doing since 'Suffer Little Children' and before.

But you said his opinion had changed recently so I used old quotes. And the song is forgettable now? Apparently not. Other people seem to remember it vividly. You're right about one thing. Morrissey has been trolling at a master level for his whole career. :thumb:
 

Flibberty

Well-Known Member
But you said his opinion had changed recently so I used old quotes. And the song is forgettable now? Apparently not. Other people seem to remember it vividly. You're right about one thing. Morrissey has been trolling at a master level for his whole career. :thumb:

No, I didn't. Must try harder! :lbf:
 

Calamine Lotion

Well-Known Member
I mention the "floodgates of immigration." You bold that and respond

:lbf:

I think bringing up a comment made many years later, when you consider the disaster that the EU has been in many ways, is irrelevant. Anyone with any sense agrees that immigration is good but uncontrolled immigration is bad. In 1992 we had the former state and when Morrissey made his 'floodgate' comment the situation had changed considerably.

I post quotes from 1988. You respond

It must be said that your comments in this thread seem only tangentially linked to the OP and for you to suddenly be bringing out these hoary 28 year old quotes is rather odd. I`m really not sure there is anything new to be said about a forgettable song like 'Bengali in Platforms'.

"But you said his opinion had changed recently so I used old quotes." You respond

No, I didn't. Must try harder! :lbf:

Let me tell you two things. First, I'm right. Second, even if you had a point, you're clearly contradicting yourself here, and you're using very obvious tactics, telling me my argument is odd, that no one cares about that song anyway, that the discussion is off-topic, that times have changed so my new quotes don't apply, but using old quotes is odd, anything you can think of.

It is you who must try harder. :thumb:
 

Flibberty

Well-Known Member
Let me tell you two things. First, I'm right. Second, even if you had a point, you're clearly contradicting yourself here, and you're using very obvious tactics, telling me my argument is odd, that no one cares about that song anyway, that the discussion is off-topic, that times have changed so my new quotes don't apply, but using old quotes is odd, anything you can think of.

It is you who must try harder. :thumb:

Nice try. You have just admitted that you think that Morrissey has been acting like a troll since the very start of his career...and yet you are still spending your time posting on this board. So what exactly does that make you? :lbf:

End of discussion.
 

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