FOS discussion

[Malarkey]

Just one point on your above post, Nicky Crane was never an EX neo Nazi, he was still a racist nasty piece of Shit on his Death Bed, same as Ian Stuart was.
Neither are a great loss to society (Sorry if that sound Harsh)...

Yeah - there's some dispute about how repentant Nicky was. Some people think he just knew he was dying & wanted some press.

 

[Malarkey]

One of the funniest things I found was Alex Cox on the set of Sid & Nancy realising he'd hired real Neo-Nazis.

Nicky is in the middle.

(there's a video clip where they play patriotic music over Nicky when he speaks in case he makes your ears gay).

 

[Troubled-Joe]

Yeah - there's some dispute about how repentant Nicky was. Some people think he just knew he was dying & wanted some press.

I think it's pretty much a given (even if not well documented) that he hadn't repented, still had the same abhorrent views he had always had.

As far as Nicky was concerned, he had nothing to repent for.

And as for Ian Stuart, I'd dance on his grave if I knew where it was, same goes for any of the other members of Skrewdriver (or BadKarDriver as I like to refer to them)

 

[Crisstti]

The short version is:

In 1983 Garry Bushell at Sounds accused Morrissey of being pro-paedophilia for Reel Around the Fountain.

In 1985 there was a lot of angst in the gay press about whether being a skinhead was sexual or could be perceived as racist. This was the scene Morrissey was part of (rockabilly features a lot in the gay press as a lighter version of punk/Oi) - so Frank Owen in the Melody Maker tried to get him to talk about his sexuality by asking him if Panic/Indie music was racist.

(I'm still chasing this lead - but there's a strong indication that the press split the Smiths up because they thought he was becoming more overtly gay.)

By the late 80s/early 90s IPC started fretting that Morrissey wasn't celibate & that teenage boys were displaying a worrying level of affection for him. This was at a time when the gay age of consent was 21 because they thought gay men recruited boys into their lifestyle.

The fact that solo he was getting more & more into rockabilly & skinheads was a worrying sign & then - just before Madstock - channel 4 ran a documentary about gay skinheads in which an ex neo-Nazi called Nicky Crane came out as gay.

Morrissey walked off stage at Madstock claiming a National Front skinhead had attacked him. The crowd had yelled homophobic abuse.

The NME's in-coming editor Steve Sutherland decided to threaten him into an interview by wording their Madstock article in a way in which M had to say he was gay or they would say he was a racist.

He ignored them.

It escalated.

Do you have that article? (maybe you've posted it already, sorry I haven't read the whole thread)

 

[Malarkey]

I think it's pretty much a given (even if not well documented) that he hadn't repented, still had the same abhorrent views he had always had.

As far as Nicky was concerned, he had nothing to repent for.

And as for Ian Stuart, I'd dance on his grave if I knew where it was, same goes for any of the other members of Skrewdriver (or BadKarDriver as I like to refer to them)

It'll probably depend who you talk to - Nicky's gay friends tend to think he stopped being a Nazi, his far right friends or ex friends have a range of opinions centred around how much he betrayed them & why.

A few people have suggested that Ian Stuart wasn't a true believer he just took up the National Front's offer to be part of Rock Against Communism because he was depressed, his career was on the skids & he resented that he wasn't fashionable with music hacks. Someone also suggested he knew Nicky was gay & he was also a closet case (I haven't found anything concrete to suggest he was though).

 

[Malarkey]

Do you have that article? (maybe you've posted it already, sorry I haven't read the whole thread)

It's the famous one:

NME – 22 August 1992

“Morrissey on cover waving the Union Jack. ‘Flying the flag or flirting with disaster’. The racism allegations issue. Photographs by Kevin Cummins, Chris Hughes, and Renaud Monfou…

illnessasart.com

It might be difficult if you're not used to UK journalism - but look out for how often they mention sexuality in an article that shouldn't require any mention of sex at all.

 

[nicky wire's legs]

The Madstock Gig (first night sold out straight away so they added the second) had so much hype around it. The magnificent 7 return etc… 6 years after they split up it was totally unexpected and the crowd was made up of 40k people just waiting for Madness to hit the stage, most were not concerned for the multiple support acts, even Ian Dury.

So maybe it was partly anticipation, excitement, alcohol etc…
Gates opened at mid day, and Madness were due on about 8.30 if I remember rightly, so that’s a long wait if you’re not interested in any of the other acts.

I was just a kid but 90% of the audience were over 30’s from all walks of life.

This was only my second ever live Gig and as far as madness Gigs go (and there’s been many) it’s the best I’ve seen them.

Moz was on top form as far as I was concerned, but not playing to his crowd, it’s always awkward - same as festivals.

Lifetime ago now

forgive a dumb canadian, but what the heck is the 'magnificent 7' and 'madness'?

 

[nicky wire's legs]

The short version is:

In 1983 Garry Bushell at Sounds accused Morrissey of being pro-paedophilia for Reel Around the Fountain.

In 1985 there was a lot of angst in the gay press about whether being a skinhead was sexual or could be perceived as racist. This was the scene Morrissey was part of (rockabilly features a lot in the gay press as a lighter version of punk/Oi) - so Frank Owen in the Melody Maker tried to get him to talk about his sexuality by asking him if Panic/Indie music was racist.

(I'm still chasing this lead - but there's a strong indication that the press split the Smiths up because they thought he was becoming more overtly gay.)

By the late 80s/early 90s IPC started fretting that Morrissey wasn't celibate & that teenage boys were displaying a worrying level of affection for him. This was at a time when the gay age of consent was 21 because they thought gay men recruited boys into their lifestyle.

The fact that solo he was getting more & more into rockabilly & skinheads was a worrying sign & then - just before Madstock - channel 4 ran a documentary about gay skinheads in which an ex neo-Nazi called Nicky Crane came out as gay.

Morrissey walked off stage at Madstock claiming a National Front skinhead had attacked him. The crowd had yelled homophobic abuse.

The NME's in-coming editor Steve Sutherland decided to threaten him into an interview by wording their Madstock article in a way in which M had to say he was gay or they would say he was a racist.

He ignored them.

It escalated.

but what i dont understand is: why did he choose the skinhead imagery? it's foreseeable that that combined with the union jack flag would spark accusations of racism. i dont understand why one needs to be homophobic to find those two things in conjunction problematic?

 

[nicky wire's legs]

it simply comes down to that shirt being the trigger to Morrissey’s ‘downfall’.

Jokes aside, there may be some truth to that.
For where a red pullover may blend well with one’s vomit, a gold lamé shirt just doesn’t blend with Union Jack and skinheads on a backdrop for some.

it is a fab shirt, though

 

[nicky wire's legs]

f*** off, honey bunny! just f*** off. im sick of your shit!

 

[Malarkey]

but what i dont understand is: why did he choose the skinhead imagery? it's foreseeable that that combined with the union jack flag would spark accusations of racism. i dont understand why one needs to be homophobic to find those two things in conjunction problematic?

It's a picture of two girls & a flag that he thrashed around for 3 minutes & threw away.

It wasn't foreseeable because they were lying. The article was a dig at his sexuality. It had nothing to do with concerns about racism at all.

 

[nicky wire's legs]

It's a picture of two girls & a flag that he thrashed around for 3 minutes & threw away.

It wasn't foreseeable because they were lying. The article was a dig at his sexuality. It had nothing to do with concerns about racism at all.

so all of this is about an article??

were the girls in the pictures skinheads or not? and if so, is not criticism of using such an image legitimate?

not arguing, just trying to understand the context.

 

[Malarkey]

so all of this is about an article??

were the girls in the pictures skinheads or not? and if so, is not criticism of using such an image legitimate?

not arguing, just trying to understand the context.

No - it's not legitimate to criticise an image that was taken by one of the NME's own photographers, contained girls who had never been connected to racism & was subverting gender norms.

 

[No 27]

The Melody Maker called it gay imagery.

A Union Jack.

And a picture of two skinhead girls.

Gay.

View attachment 90370

Never mind the fact that you and I have been talking about NME's coverage of Madstock, not Melody Maker's, so f_cking what?

Answer the questions I asked you and then provide incontrovertible evidence that homophobia among NME journalists was the direct and sole cause of their questioning Morrissey's attitudes to race.

 

[Crisstti]

Never mind the fact that you and I have been talking about NME's coverage of Madstock, not Melody Maker's, so f_cking what?

Answer the questions I asked you and then provide incontrovertible evidence that homophobia among NME journalists was the direct and sole cause of their questioning Morrissey's attitudes to race.

It's silly to demand "incontrovertible evidence" for something like this.

 

[Malarkey]

Never mind the fact that you and I have been talking about NME's coverage of Madstock, not Melody Maker's, so f_cking what?

Answer the questions I asked you and then provide incontrovertible evidence that homophobia among NME journalists was the direct and sole cause of their questioning Morrissey's attitudes to race.

Another empty post from you.

The NME & the Melody Maker were part of IPC - worked in the same building - & the in-coming editor of the NME worked at the Melody Maker.

If it was about race they wouldn't call it gay imagery.

The called it gay imagery because their issue was with his sexuality.

Because they were homophobic.

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

so all of this is about an article??

were the girls in the pictures skinheads or not? and if so, is not criticism of using such an image legitimate?

not arguing, just trying to understand the context.

could be wrong, but I don’t recall if anyone has asked him at the time what the skinhead imagery and flag mean to him, which would shine light on why he used them.

And if so, was it answered seriously by him.

 

[Malarkey]

could be wrong, but I don’t recall if anyone has asked him at the time what the skinhead imagery and flag mean to him, which would shine light on why he used them.

And if so, was it answered seriously by him.

He has a couple of times - one under the headline 'Morrissey Comes Out' in which he said his ideal audience was skinheads in nail varnish in the NME & there's one with a broadsheet in which he said something about people being interested in all sorts of sexuality...

I'll have to dig it up.

This one is interesting - the hack thinks the racism allegations are implausible & the music press have a sexual obession with him (which I think is true).

The Times – 10 February 1995

“”This Charming Android”, interview by David Sinclair. Topics: the UK press, the racism allegations, the Boxers tour, his fans, etc.” -PJLM

illnessasart.com

 

[ZOOM FROM GLOOM]

He has a couple of times - one under the headline 'Morrissey Comes Out' in which he said his ideal audience was skinheads in nail varnish in the NME & there's one with a broadsheet in which he said something about people being interested in all sorts of sexuality...

Yes, but I believe that’s from a 1991 interview, and so, not post Madstock.

Of course it should still apply, and if the journalists did their homework they may have a better understanding of where M is coming from, in regards to his use of the imagery.

And yes, the clickbait title, they are obsessed with his sexuality, or maybe more accurately, obsessed with his sexual preferences.

I'll have to dig it up.

This one is interesting - the hack thinks the racism allegations are implausible & the music press have a sexual obession with him (which I think is true).

The Times – 10 February 1995

“”This Charming Android”, interview by David Sinclair. Topics: the UK press, the racism allegations, the Boxers tour, his fans, etc.” -PJLM

illnessasart.com

Yep.

 

[j*e*t]

Yes, but I believe that’s from a 1991 interview, and so, not post Madstock.

Of course it should still apply, and if the journalists did their homework they may have a better understanding of where M is coming from, in regards to his use of the imagery.

And yes, the clickbait title, they are obsessed with his sexuality, or maybe more accurately, obsessed with his sexual preferences.



Yep.

I had a look at the NME 18 May 1991 interview 'Morrissey Comes Out (for a drink)' and what struck me was that Stuart Maconie describes the T-shirt Morrissey was wearing for the interview as having a garish illustration of legs ending in half-mast jeans and 16-hole "Docs" and bearing the legend "Skins: Alive And Kicking", which surely would have made an interesting photo for its readers, yet there isn't a photo of it in the article. I don't know if such a photo exists, but it appears that someone decided not to show Morrissey in this way, as if the NME was concerned about the skinhead connection well before Madstock.