FOS discussion

Yes, but Rapp wasn't a victim. Moz starts off everything he says by stating that he doesn't think the allegation is credible. A victim is not someone who makes an allegation. Someone who makes an allegation is exactly that - someone making an allegation. If we go down the route of 'victims should always be believed' then we may as well throw out every principle of justice. The word victim has been weaponised. If you choose to continue to weaponise the word - that is your choice. Moz wasn't commenting on a victim of abuse. The only time he has commented on victims of abuse was to write a song suggesting that the perpetrators will be haunted for all eternity.

At the trial Spacey's lawyer argued that Rapp made up the allegation because he was a troubled 14 year old boy who clearly had no guardian looking after him as much as they should. That is what Moz is alluding to in the quote above - and how that was different from Moz's upbringing.

From the article below:

Spacey's lawyer, Jennifer Keller, said after the trial that the defense was "very grateful to the jury for seeing through these false allegations."

During closing arguments, she told jurors that Rapp made up the encounter and suggested reasons Rapp imagined the encounter with Spacey or made it up.

It was possible, she said, that Rapp invented it based on his experience performing in "Precious Sons," a play in which actor Ed Harris picks up Rapp's character and lays on top of him, mistaking him briefly for his wife before discovering it is his son.

She also suggested that Rapp later became jealous that Spacey became a megastar while Rapp had "smaller roles in small shows" after his breakthrough performance in Broadway's "Rent."

"So here we are today and Mr. Rapp is getting more attention from this trial than he has in his entire acting life," Keller said.


And guess what? The jury agreed with this.

No victim blaming involved.

You really are not listening are you.

It has nothing to do with retrospectively talking about the outcome of a civil battery case.

It has nothing to do with needing to believe everyone who claims they are a victim but it is about not dismissing without any evidence a claimant.

Morrissey's comment was before the case went to civil court, before the details from the defence and the prosecution was heard and his instant response was to state he didn't think it was true on the grounds a 14 year old boy would know what could happen if in a bedroom with an adult.

It is irrelevant that it is about Rapp or Spacey, it is the fact he dismissed the validity of the claimant on the grounds he gave.

It is victim blaming before the facts were known or the court case had even taken place and you too are victim blaming when you have said that Rapp probably lied about his age to Spacey when that is just not a fact and was never raised by Spacey's legal team.

The reason that 98% of abuse and rape cases fail to secure convictions is because the victim starts off from a position of not being believed which is different in how people and the courts treat other crimes. The majority of victims are found to be guilty of being dishonest or from putting themselves in a situation with an adult when they shouldn't' have, or from wearing provocative clothes etc etc. The claimant isn't on trial but in many instances people convict them before any case goes to court.
 
I will repeat, at the time Morrissey made his comment, Spacey had apologized for his conduct toward Rapp, which made Rapp's allegation completely credible. Morrissey's belief or disbelief is not material to the comments he made. Also, he got the story wrong, they were not in a hotel room. He did not believe the allegations against Weinstein either. Again, the details you want to keep parsing out do not matter, Morrissey's attitude toward victims of pedophila, sexual assault and rape are what this has cost him are at issue here.
Morrissey's lying about what he said is at issue here.
The thing is, no one took his freedom of speech or burned him at the stake, they just decided to stop being a fan and for some reason you have a problem with that. He exercised his freedom of speech and people reacted.
The defense attorney's argument has nothing to do with what Morrissey said.
This is what Spacey said after the allegation:

"I'm beyond horrified to hear his story. I honestly do not recall the encounter, it would have been over 30 years ago. But if I did behave then as he describes I owe him the sincerest apology for what would have been deeply inappropriate drunken behavior, and I am sorry for the feelings he describes having carried with him all these years."

That is not an admission of anything.

What was argued at the trial is relevant because it echoes almost exactly what Moz suggests in the comments you quote - and the jury shared the view that the allegation was not credible and was made up by someone who was a troubled teenager who clearly lacked parental supervision.

Rapp wasn't a victim. In fact, technically Spacey is the victim in this case.
 
This is what Spacey said after the allegation:

"I'm beyond horrified to hear his story. I honestly do not recall the encounter, it would have been over 30 years ago. But if I did behave then as he describes I owe him the sincerest apology for what would have been deeply inappropriate drunken behavior, and I am sorry for the feelings he describes having carried with him all these years."

That is not an admission of anything.

What was argued at the trial is relevant because it echoes almost exactly what Moz suggests in the comments you quote - and the jury shared the view that the allegation was not credible and was made up by someone who was a troubled teenager who clearly lacked parental supervision.

Rapp wasn't a victim. In fact, technically Spacey is the victim in this case.
oh my god. You really don't listen to what myself and Redacted are saying do you.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RAPP OR THE FINDING OF THAT CIVIL CASE

It is about Morrissey's statement that he stated it wasn't credible and why he thought it wasn't credible at the time he made his statement.

Do you think it would be acceptable if an adult who was abused as a child walks into a police station and makes a complaint of historic abuse and a police office says "I don't think your claim is credible because didn't you know what could happen if you went into a room with an adult when you were 14?"
 
Freedom of speech doesn't mean speaking what you want to speak. Freedom of speech means speaking what you want to speak without fear of being burned at the stake, literally or metaphorically.
First day on earth? Say stupid/uninformed shit all you want but be willing to pay consequences when you do.
 
First day on earth? Say stupid/uninformed shit all you want but be willing to pay consequences when you do.
I was talking metaphorically. Although as we know historically you could indeed be burned at the stake. Savonarola comes to mind.
Freedom of speech is defined as being able to speak without fear of retaliation - that retaliation can be from the government, and being prosecuted, for example, but it can also be extra-judicial. Salman Rushdie knows all about the extra-judicial form of retaliation. As I mentioned in a previous post, if you're a protester in Iran at the moment I imagine being prosecuted is probably the least of your worries.
So it is indeed all about the consequences. If the consequences of speaking freely are being killed, or disappeared, or prosecuted by your government - I think we would all agree that is bad. And if the consequences of speaking freely are people not buying your records,I think we would all agree that is their free choice and that is fine too.
What is not fine - and I think this is what Moz was getting at in the interview recorded at the London Palladium - what is not fine is people saying, I don't like what this person has said, so let's cancel them, let's destroy their career, make it impossible for them to ever get played on the radio, impossible for them to ever release another album. That's the Mary Whitehouse attitude to consequences - I don't like this person so no one else should like them either. I'm making a choice for you about what you should listen to, or what you should watch - based on my moral judgment.
 
I was talking metaphorically. Although as we know historically you could indeed be burned at the stake. Savonarola comes to mind.
Freedom of speech is defined as being able to speak without fear of retaliation - that retaliation can be from the government, and being prosecuted, for example, but it can also be extra-judicial. Salman Rushdie knows all about the extra-judicial form of retaliation. As I mentioned in a previous post, if you're a protester in Iran at the moment I imagine being prosecuted is probably the least of your worries.
So it is indeed all about the consequences. If the consequences of speaking freely are being killed, or disappeared, or prosecuted by your government - I think we would all agree that is bad. And if the consequences of speaking freely are people not buying your records,I think we would all agree that is their free choice and that is fine too.
What is not fine - and I think this is what Moz was getting at in the interview recorded at the London Palladium - what is not fine is people saying, I don't like what this person has said, so let's cancel them, let's destroy their career, make it impossible for them to ever get played on the radio, impossible for them to ever release another album. That's the Mary Whitehouse attitude to consequences - I don't like this person so no one else should like them either. I'm making a choice for you about what you should listen to, or what you should watch - based on my moral judgment.
But beyond Morrissey's paranoia there is no evidence that what he or you are saying is the case.

What is evidenced is that consumers made the simple choice to not buy his product anymore because they didn't like what he was saying. Private, personal decisions, not an orchestrated plan.

Unless someone has some evidence that shows that someone stood up and organised a deliberate silencing against him it is just imagined and most of us would prefer to deal with facts.
 
oh my god. You really don't listen to what myself and Redacted are saying do you.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RAPP OR THE FINDING OF THAT CIVIL CASE

It is about Morrissey's statement that he stated it wasn't credible and why he thought it wasn't credible at the time he made his statement.

Do you think it would be acceptable if an adult who was abused as a child walks into a police station and makes a complaint of historic abuse and a police office says "I don't think your claim is credible because didn't you know what could happen if you went into a room with an adult when you were 14?"
Which room are you in?

 
The Old Testament is completely based on local traditions and customs from the time it was written.

Hold on a minute. Originally you implied that female subservience was not in any of the Abrahamic texts. You said: “local customs and traditions have nothing to do with the Quran or the Bible or the Hebrew Bible.” But now you’re saying the Hebrew Bible is based on local traditions and customs. Which is it?

Those passages from Deuteronomy and Exodus are also written in many different ways depending on which version of the Old Testament you read. They are not considered the basis of Christianity as the New Testament is. There isn’t a Christian alive who believes in stoning to death a woman. It was based on the customs and laws of the time.

The Hebrew bible has female role models and matriarchs such as Sarah, Rebekah, Leah and Rachel.

Correct, and the New Testament holds up Sarah as a role model for female subservience in marriage: “for this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord” (1 Peter 3:5-6).

Obviously Christianity does not retain all of the Mosaic Law, since Christians believe Christ fulfilled and superseded the Law. But it very much retains the paradigm of male dominance and female subservience.

There is nothing in any “word of god” that says women are there to pleasure men which is what Tate says and they are whether they want to or not ie rape is ok.

I already cited you a passage from the so-called “word of God” that says a woman must marry her rapist. If you ask me, that’s not a sane policy on rape. The bible is not really a “PUA” handbook, so naturally it doesn’t confirm everything Andrew Tate says. But it does contain a lot of ultra-machismo, and it puts women in a position of subservience. In a Venn diagram of the bible and Andrew Tate, there would be frequent overlap.
 
It is always interesting when people make theological statements of fact when taking a single passage from the texts.

The Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith, the people in the Catholic Church who make the statements on theology had things to say about that passage in the 70s. You can’t really take that passage out of context on its own because if you look earlier in the same book Paul is saying women should prophesy and be also states men and women are equal with god so at face value it would appear to be a contradiction but that isn’t the case.

This covers what the Congregation said:

“It must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on their head (1 Cor 11:2-16); such requirements no longer have a normative value.

However, the Apostle's forbidding of women to speak in the assemblies (1 Cor 14:34-35; 1 Ti, 2:12) is of a different nature, and exegetes define its meaning in this way: Paul in no way opposes the right, which he elsewhere recognises as possessed by women, to prophesy in the assembly (1 Cor 11:5); the prohibition solely concerns the official function of teaching in the Christian assembly.

For Saint Paul this prescription is bound up with the divine plan of creation (1 Cor 11:7; Gen 2:18-24): it would be difficult to see in it the expression of a cultural fact.

Nor should it be forgotten that we owe to Saint Paul one of the most vigorous texts in the New Testament on the fundamental equality of men and women, as children of God in Christ (Gal 3:28).
Therefore there is no reason for accusing him of prejudices against women, when we note the trust that he shows towards them and the collaboration that he asks of them in his apostolate.”

That “single passage” informed the Christian take on women for almost two millennia. For most of its history, the Catholic Church did take that passage on its own. Here is the Catechism of the Council of Trent:

Eve was formed from the side of man, not from his head, in order to give her to understand that it was not hers to command but to obey her husband. [ ... ]

The duties of a wife are thus summed up by the prince of the Apostles: “Let wives be subject to their husbands.” [ ... ]

To train up their children in the practice of virtue, and to pay particular at tention to their domestic concerns, should also be especial objects of their attention and study. Unless compelled by necessity to go abroad, they should also cheerfully remain at home; and should never leave home without the permission of their husbands.

If St. Paul is supposed to have been such a feminist for his time, then apparently it didn’t take. At least not until the secret truth of his doctrine was miraculously lit upon by the Church in the 1970s, when (purely coincidentally) the traditional view was withering against the prevailing secular values.
 
Hold on a minute. Originally you implied that female subservience was not in any of the Abrahamic texts. You said: “local customs and traditions have nothing to do with the Quran or the Bible or the Hebrew Bible.” But now you’re saying the Hebrew Bible is based on local traditions and customs. Which is it?



Correct, and the New Testament holds up Sarah as a role model for female subservience in marriage: “for this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord” (1 Peter 3:5-6).

Obviously Christianity does not retain all of the Mosaic Law, since Christians believe Christ fulfilled and superseded the Law. But it very much retains the paradigm of male dominance and female subservience.



I already cited you a passage from the so-called “word of God” that says a woman must marry her rapist. If you ask me, that’s not a sane policy on rape. The bible is not really a “PUA” handbook, so naturally it doesn’t confirm everything Andrew Tate says. But it does contain a lot of ultra-machismo, and it puts women in a position of subservience. In a Venn diagram of the bible and Andrew Tate, there would be frequent overlap.
I was talking about texts that state a woman’s purpose in life is to pleasure a man. You mentioned the word subservience which is something different. You are misunderstanding what I have said.

You are googling for passages that you think prove your argument. The passages you come up with are consistently quoted by atheists who don’t understand the theology and historic social conditions around them.

So the one regarding rape isn’t the whole passage consideration. The reality in fact is dependent on the actual act and who was raped.

The Old Testament clearly states that if a man rapes a married woman then that man is to be put to death. Not really following your idea that men are dominant.

For an act where an unmarried woman is raped it isn’t as simple as you state where the woman is forced to marry the rapist.

What it actually says is that the man has to talk with the woman’s father and give money and be told to marry the woman and look after her “because he hath humbled her” Deuteronomy 22.

To understand that ancient text you have to look at the social situation at that time. When an unmarried woman was raped she was often considered not suitable for marriage any more by possible suitors and many victims because of that lived in extreme poverty and often had to turn to prostitution in order to survive.

So the idea behind the idea of a rapist marrying the victim is not that the woman is being forced to do so but to force the man to look after the woman for the rest of his life and the only legal way to do that at the time was through marriage.

An unmarried woman not a virgin was looked upon with shame and was unable to marry so ….well hopefully you get the idea.

You are talking about a time that was around 2,500 years ago and if you think the stigma in modern society over unmarried women who weren’t virgins was still a problem in modern days until relatively recently then hopefully you will see how that would have also been a problem 2500 years ago.

We all know the facts around babies being taken off unmarried women in the uk even as recently as the late 70s.
 
That “single passage” informed the Christian take on women for almost two millennia. For most of its history, the Catholic Church did take that passage on its own. Here is the Catechism of the Council of Trent:



If St. Paul is supposed to have been such a feminist for his time, then apparently it didn’t take. At least not until the secret truth of his doctrine was miraculously lit upon by the Church in the 1970s, when (purely coincidentally) the traditional view was withering against the prevailing secular values.
You are talking about a council from more than 500 years ago. Outside of religion also at that time the concept of feminism was not a thing.

This historic point you try to make isn’t really relevant. I’m not a defender of the Catholic Church or it’s practices but those declarations from 500 years ago weren’t as a result of the ancient texts from the apostles but you have to again look at why and what was happening and the council of Trent was a response to Lutherism. Political rather than religious. I’m not aware of any modern day Christians who take the letter of doctrines outside of the New Testament written 500 years ago as gospel. It wasn’t just religions that lived by those kind of doctrines back then. It applied to all with regard to social constructs.
 
First day on earth? Say stupid/uninformed shit all you want but be willing to pay consequences when you do.
Is this an example of some of the 'consequences' you had in mind? A woman being assaulted by men? Her crime? Stating that biological sex is a fact and can't be changed by some miracle of internal belief. You got to love The Guardian, calling her an 'anti-trans activist'. She's not anti-trans - she is simply pro-women. Pure misogyny in action.

 
oh my god. You really don't listen to what myself and Redacted are saying do you.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RAPP OR THE FINDING OF THAT CIVIL CASE

It is about Morrissey's statement that he stated it wasn't credible and why he thought it wasn't credible at the time he made his statement.

Do you think it would be acceptable if an adult who was abused as a child walks into a police station and makes a complaint of historic abuse and a police office says "I don't think your claim is credible because didn't you know what could happen if you went into a room with an adult when you were 14?"

Morrissey isn't the police & no victims spoke to him - he heard an untrue story & he said it didn't ring true.
 
Is this an example of some of the 'consequences' you had in mind? A woman being assaulted by men? Her crime? Stating that biological sex is a fact and can't be changed by some miracle of internal belief. You got to love The Guardian, calling her an 'anti-trans activist'. She's not anti-trans - she is simply pro-women. Pure misogyny in action.

I am pretty sure no one on here has condoned violent crime against anyone. Are you blaming such crimes on the opinion of a journalist? If you are , are you suggesting journalists are responsible for the actions of violent criminals and should ignore freedom to speak and be silent?

A journalist calling someone anti trans isn't a green light for someone to be violent regardless of whether you consider her to not be anti trans. The journalist writing that is an example surely of the freedom to speak. The violent attack is an example of crime and the two may well be completely unrelated.

It is hardly a logical comparison of the consumer choice consequences that have been discussed in this thread with violent crime carried out by thugs. There are criminals in all areas of life whether that be homophobes, transphobes, pro women, pro life, whatever group you want to come up with. No one condones violence.
 
Morrissey isn't the police & no victims spoke to him - he heard an untrue story & he said it didn't ring true.
what untrue story did he comment on?

He was commenting on the story that someone claimed he had been abused by an adult in a room and his response (and I can't believe we are still repeating this) was that it seemed untrue because a 14 year old child would have known what being in a room with an adult could lead to.
 
what untrue story did he comment on?

He was commenting on the story that someone claimed he had been abused by an adult in a room and his response (and I can't believe we are still repeating this) was that it seemed untrue because a 14 year old child would have known what being in a room with an adult could lead to.

It seemed untrue to him because he didn't think a 14 year old would go into the hotel room.

So, nothing had happened - it was just gossip.

And it was just gossip.
 
...This discussion has not been about whether people should agree or not agree with his views or not agree with whatever reason people have given for stopping being fans. It is purely about whether individuals have the democratic right to make that choice for themselves and choose what they spend their money on without being told that by making that choice they are arrogant or self righteous. It could be said the arrogance lies firmly elsewhere.
The discussion has been wide-ranging. The thread has the general expansive title of freedom of speech, even if you've kept bringing it back to your one point. But has anyone told you you're arrogant or self-righteous for spending your money as you like? Of course that's up to you. And beyond those few clumsy sentences from Morrissey, you don't honestly believe he thinks abuse is acceptable no matter what opportunity is presented, except for being realistic that there are abusers on the loose?

The Gift of Fear, a best-selling book by Gavin de Becker, originally marketed at celebrities threatened with violence, is all about learning to recognise danger signs, and how to avoid harm. This is also realistic. It's summarised here -

Sorry you are angry. You have a right to be. 'There is so much destruction all over the world'. Wishing you happiness 🪷
 
It seemed untrue to him because he didn't think a 14 year old would go into the hotel room.

So, nothing had happened - it was just gossip.

And it was just gossip.
So you think it is ok to state a person claiming they were sexually abused as a child is not telling the truth because a 14 year old wouldn't go into a hotel room with an adult?

You my need to think about that a little. Plenty of children get abused in hotel rooms. Why would that be justification for not thinking it to be true?

In reality it was true, except it wasn't a hotel, it was an apartment bedroom but surely that makes no difference whatsoever.

It wasn't gossip at all. Spacey admitted he took a 14 year old boy to his bedroom and he apologised for his behaviour.

Do you really think it is credible to think a child abuse claimant is not telling the truth because Morrissey thinks a 14 year old would know better than to go into a bedroom with an adult and should have been aware that things could happen if he did?

Should we tell all abuse helplines and charities that they shouldn't believe any child that phones in if they say they were 14 and went into an adults bedroom?

At what age would it be believable for a child to have entered a bedroom with an adult do you think?

It's like there is a barrier to the english language and common sense suddenly.
 
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