FOS discussion

An individual, or individuals, may boycott. They may continue alone or in concert. Either configuration counts as a boycott.

You are at times speaking for others here yourself and making plenty of implications of your own, about those who don’t agree with you being, for example, conspiracy theorists. Nobody has spent their lives praising Morrissey’s way with words without allowing for some context.

The charge is that what he said was victim-blaming. What I hear is exasperation and refusal to play the shock-sensation game. Would anything have happened to the boy if his parents had accompanied him? The point he was making, and likewise for the Holywood casting scene, is that some situations present more risks than others, and those risks may often be predictable, and related harms therefore preventable.

More context. In his Autobiography, Morrissey describes a boyhood surrounded by Irish relatives in their new host city of Manchester, with hardly any money, having sometimes to put up with living in derelict council properties, and music keeping them going. Of early school companions, he writes: “These children are slackly shaped and contaminated. Many stragglers stink, and will faint due to lack of food [and remain soaked all day if arriving in rain].” He could see that many children were worse off than him.

Aged nine, when being dragged by a teacher to the principal’s office, he was confident enough of his station in hearts to warn her, “you touch me, and my mum’ll be down.” And because the words are not empty, he knows, “there will be no beating for any case that steps this far over the line…I am well turned out, soft on the eye, soft of voice, and absent of the Jackson Crescent muddiness, and this calls for a certain consideration.”

There were people in Morrissey’s life who were looking out for him and let him know they would take action if he was abused. “Mother is a critical guide, and Dad is playful although fist-ready with the outside world…constantly called upon when family feuds demand the physical, and he is always there and always unafraid in the days when physicality ironed matters smoothly, and recipients backed down without offence.”

Perhaps that’s why he came across as categorical in that interview, being aware that carer character and behaviour is so consequential in these matters. Someone bemoaning the occurrence of abuse is hardly the same as someone approving of, or committing abuse though? Or someone maybe hinting at it, as in The Smiths’ debut album, which according to this excellent review by a MSolo subscriber, distinguishes itself by being full of all kinds of sex! - https://thestreetlampdoesntcast.blogspot.com/2010/07/kitten-wine9-everybody-wants-to-be-joe.html

The world is still having much trouble calling abuse what it is and acting accordingly. Bonfires of teenagers keep breaking out. Back in the 70s and 80s, even mentioning it was rare and brave, and what was the point, in an era without services, except for protection by your folk? Despite legal-moral fluctuations in attitudes about its seriousness, what has also changed is increasingly younger sexualisation, which cannot be without its own ramifications. If that's victim-blaming too, then it seems to me that you simply do not want to examine the many factors that possibly play a part, but are clinging to one perspective i.e. blame?

Whether in respect of filth in art or trespasses in reality, accepting even the best of us is fallible, isn't space for understanding and forgiveness healthier and more social than limiting responses to judgement and punishment? So much for freedom of speech otherwise..

Here are more relevant lines from https://yalereview.org/article/garth-greenwell-philip-roth -
"...One reason a particular strain of our current moralism—the strain that would subject artists to tests of acceptability, that says we shouldn’t consume art made by bad people—is so dismaying is that it sees works of art as endlessly fungible, just another commodity on the market. There’s so much art available to us, this reasoning goes; there’s nothing Lolita or The Enigma of Arrival or Wise Blood might offer that we can’t find in a writer less problematic than Nabokov or Naipaul or O’Connor. But a profound experience of art is an experience of something like love, which is to say of singularity; when you’ve had a profound encounter with Giovanni’s Room, say, or a portrait by Alice Neel, you can’t imagine swapping it out for something more conveniently affirming of social values we cherish.

This affinity is more mysterious than evaluation or ranking or canon-formation; it seems to me analogous to other relationships we form. The love I feel for my partner or my friends isn’t the result of comparative evaluation, it isn’t founded on a claim that of all candidates I’ve judged them worthiest. The question of comparison doesn’t enter; they are simply themselves, incommensurate, irreplaceable. My life wouldn’t be my life without them, as my life wouldn’t be my life without any number of artists who failed, in various ways large and small, to be excellent outside their art.

The problem is that, in much of our discussion of art, we’ve made a mistake about what moral engagement is, and so what art’s role in it might be. The value I find in the art I love seems different from and greater than formal experiment or technical display, greater than play, certainly greater than “metabolic churning.” Art has a value that seems to me moral, and, like my students, like much of what we’ve taken to calling The Discourse, with its purity tests and cancelations, its groupthink and dismissal, I want to think of art making as an activity with moral implications. More, I want to place it at the heart of one way of striving toward a moral life, by which I mean at the heart of our attempt to live flourishingly with others, or at least bearably and with minimal harm. The problem is that, in much of our discussion of art, I think we’ve made a mistake about what moral engagement is, and so what art’s role in it might be. In much of our commentary, there’s a desire for art to be exemplary, to present a world the moral valence of which, whether positive or negative, is easily legible; there’s a desire for the work of art to provide an index of judgment clearly predicated on values the reader can approve. We want the work to give us a place to stand that grants access to righteousness, a place from which to judge a work or its characters.

But more and more I question the role of this kind of judgment in moral life. I don’t mean the constant, shifting, provisional evaluations we make moment-to-moment, the moral echolocation by which we position ourselves and our actions. I mean the act of coming to judgment, to a verdict: of assigning someone a durable or even permanent moral status. This is sometimes necessary, of course, though maybe less often than we suspect; it’s what we do, hopefully with some seriousness, in courts of law, and what we do sometimes flippantly, recklessly, in social media campaigns for de-platforming and cancelation.

The seriousness of our verdicts depends in large part on the density of their contextualization; and, since the context of a human life is so nearly depthless and made up of such incommensurable elements, ideally righteous judgment is impossible. To be bearable, to be plausibly adequate, even our imperfect, sublunary judgments require an immense amount of work; the idea that we might carry that work out on social media is one of the genuinely repulsive aspects of our moment. I am immensely grateful, every day, that judging others in this way is not my job. The best thing about being a novelist, in fact, is that my job is actively to resist coming to such judgment. Plausibly adequate verdicts may be a necessary feature of the real world, but they are never necessary in matters of art.

When we place this kind of definitive moral judgment at the heart of our engagement with others, assigning a person or a work a status as problematic or righteous, we make a mistake about what a moral relationship to another is, I think. If a moral relationship means to live with or beside another in such a way as to recognize the value of their life as being equal to and independent of our own—that impossible, necessary Kantian standard—then passing judgment is the abrogation of that relationship: it destroys the reciprocity necessary for moral relation, it establishes a hierarchy utterly corrosive of it. This is another reason to reject the idea that we should only consume art made by good people: Who am I to judge the goodness of another?..."

and

"..In life, we bear what we can bear and risk what we can risk, and make our necessary accommodations. But in art we don’t have to make those accommodations: we can bear things in art we can’t bear in real life, and so art can offer us a crucial moral training, placing us in the impossible position, which is also the only morally defensible position, of cherishing the existence of others we cannot bear..."
I have said this before but maybe you missed it. If a person just stops buying something because they don't like it, it doesn't equate to a Boycott. A boycott is a protest to either bring about financial change to a seller or to bring about change. I never had either intention. I just don't want to buy it cause I don't like it. That isn't a boycott.

I applaud your lengthy response in trying to find an excuse for what he said but in reality it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what happened in his childhood etc. His words over the 14 year old boy, stating the boy should have been aware, as he himself was aware, if in a room with an adult, that it may could lead to sexual abuse, and therefore shouldn't have been there is reprehensible. It makes no difference if it was preventable or not. The only blame for a child being abused lies only and totally with the adult committing the abuse.

His separate comments over the victims of Weinstein or any couching issue and the me too movement, only speaking up because they were disappointed they never got a career out of it are also reprehensible.

But I have said a few times now that I don't care if people don't agree with my decision over this. If you wish to belittle my decision and try to academically give reasons for him saying those things that is up to you, but I will never buy it or accept it.

The point was that I have the right to make that decision, and it is the right decision, and the decision to no longer buy something being produced by someone whose views I find reprehensible is just my consumer choice. It really is that simple.
 
You didn’t answer the question. Provide me with one article when a journalist told people to not listen to Morrissey.

Journalists repeating his words is not the same thing.

The NME may have implied he was racist long ago but it didn’t have any effect on his career. And that is the proof in the pudding that in reality the opinion of a journalist is meaningless and not really effective at doing any damage worth speaking of.

You keep missing the point. All the articles and all the damage was done because of what he said. That came before any journalistic commentary.

If you think he was ever going to be able to say that a 15 year old child abuse victim was to blame for the abuse he suffered because he should have known what was going to happen by being in a room with an adult and that comment was never going to cause widespread media backlash and widespread condemnation from his fanbase then you are very naive.

Again most of his fan base didn’t leave because of what any newspaper wrote. They left because of what he said and what he has and has continued to post on his own page and of course his fanbase reads his website. What the general public thinks isn’t really important. It is his decades of loyal fanbase who read and heard his words direct from the horses mouth that matters and they left in their droves.

Plenty on musicians and politicians and famous people get attacked in the press consistently and they still have successful careers.

You don’t lose a loyal fanbase because a journalist prints some bad opinion about someone.

He is to blame for that. Pure and simple.
The NME is one magazine. It's obviously been worse now with many many articles and with social media and woke culture.

(It goes back futher than that btw too. Apparently Panic was racist too?)

You can repeat some of someone's words while leaving others out, emphasize some over others, add commentary which will lead the public. There are MANY ways a journalist can manipulate information or present it in a biased way.

"If you think he was ever going to be able to say that a 15 year old child abuse victim was to blame for the abuse he suffered because he should have known what was going to happen by being in a room with an adult and that comment was never going to cause widespread media backlash and widespread condemnation from his fanbase then you are very naive."

This is not what he said. He said it didn't ring true to him.

You can't ignore the fact that most people, including most of his fanbase, would hear his words as mediated by the press, and not "directly from the horse's mouth".
And it hasn't been "one journalist", it's been article after article.

I don’t see anything particularly wrong with that article or the opinion in it. He isn’t telling people to stop following him and if anything it completely proves my point that people don’t listen to journalism.

There is nothing untrue in relation to Morrissey in it. It is his opinion. Are you saying journalists are not allowed to write their opinions? That would be a interesting suggestion from someone who is blaming Morrissey’s problem on cancel culture to cancel people’s opinion.

There is no libel in the article so it is just his opinion.

You seem to believe that all of Morrissey’s die hard fans for decades are all stupid and all left because of the opinions of journalists. That is nonsense. Every die hard fan I know that left left because of what he said and what he posted. I should know because every one of my friends were in that boat and had been to 100s of gigs over 30 decades and have all stopped. This is at least 100 people.

There are many articles also with opinions that are contrary to these kind of opinions too like the recent spectator article saying rock and roll needs morrissey etc.

He caused the demise of his career. No one else. There are no planned and orchestrated 4 men of the apocalypse and no evidence of such. That is exactly what it is paranoia, narcissism and delusional denial.

His main issue is that no record label anywhere likes his albums after having listened to them. If you think the reason for that is because they make their business decisions based on what is in a tabloid journalistic printed opinion then again you are naive. Labels would release anything by anyone if they thought it was a good product and could make money regardless of any opinion about his views. They like controversial bad boys. The real issue with this is that they just don’t think the product warrants the investment because it’s not great.
He absolutely is telling people to stop following him. He goes as far as to say "he expected more" of "latinx".

I never said there was libel in the article. I said the article was biased and the journalist was telling people to stop listening to Moz. Which he was.

Journalists are entitled to express their opinion, but they're journalists, not simply people writing a letter to the editor. Their job is not to simply express their opinion, but to write overall unbiased and informative material.

What you post about your friends (a 100 people??) is simply personal experience and hardly proof of anything. And yes, they still got their info mediated by the press. I don't see why you try to minimize the power the press has in mediating and forming public opinion. They have an enormous power.

We do not have a way of knowing how many fans have left due to this of course.

No one has talked about "four men of the apocalypse" nor anything of the sort. That's just a straw man intended to make the argument - that Moz has been relentlessly attacked by the press and that this has had an effect on his career - seem as some silly conspiracy theory, which it is not.

About your points abut labels:
- Moz had the Quarry songs and it took him years to get a label to release them. And that's one of his best albums ever. Very strong indicator that quality of the music is NOT the issue with labels.
- Labels like "bad boys" they can easily control and market, who express "controversial" opinions that they'll receive widespread applause for (against police or Trump or whatever). Not people who actually express opinions against the grain and who are difficult to control (and probably won't do much in terms f marketing either)
 
The NME is one magazine. It's obviously been worse now with many many articles and with social media and woke culture.

(It goes back futher than that btw too. Apparently Panic was racist too?)

You can repeat some of someone's words while leaving others out, emphasize some over others, add commentary which will lead the public. There are MANY ways a journalist can manipulate information or present it in a biased way.

"If you think he was ever going to be able to say that a 15 year old child abuse victim was to blame for the abuse he suffered because he should have known what was going to happen by being in a room with an adult and that comment was never going to cause widespread media backlash and widespread condemnation from his fanbase then you are very naive."

This is not what he said. He said it didn't ring true to him.

You can't ignore the fact that most people, including most of his fanbase, would hear his words as mediated by the press, and not "directly from the horse's mouth".
And it hasn't been "one journalist", it's been article after article.


He absolutely is telling people to stop following him. He goes as far as to say "he expected more" of "latinx".

I never said there was libel in the article. I said the article was biased and the journalist was telling people to stop listening to Moz. Which he was.

Journalists are entitled to express their opinion, but they're journalists, not simply people writing a letter to the editor. Their job is not to simply express their opinion, but to write overall unbiased and informative material.

What you post about your friends (a 100 people??) is simply personal experience and hardly proof of anything. And yes, they still got their info mediated by the press. I don't see why you try to minimize the power the press has in mediating and forming public opinion. They have an enormous power.

We do not have a way of knowing how many fans have left due to this of course.

No one has talked about "four men of the apocalypse" nor anything of the sort. That's just a straw man intended to make the argument - that Moz has been relentlessly attacked by the press and that this has had an effect on his career - seem as some silly conspiracy theory, which it is not.

About your points abut labels:
- Moz had the Quarry songs and it took him years to get a label to release them. And that's one of his best albums ever. Very strong indicator that quality of the music is NOT the issue with labels.
- Labels like "bad boys" they can easily control and market, who express "controversial" opinions that they'll receive widespread applause for (against police or Trump or whatever). Not people who actually express opinions against the grain and who are difficult to control (and probably won't do much in terms f marketing either)
You still suggest his loyal fanbase of decades who are fully aware of how the press can behave in relation to Morrissey over the years are incapable of understanding what is real and what isn't.

I made my decisions from hearing and reading Morrissey's own posts and recorded interview, not from the press. I don't read the press. So I am pretty sure there will be 1000s of people who also made that same decision without the press.

The point you make about "it doesn't ring true" re the child I have already dealt with so I'm not going to repeat it again for you.

It is well known why there were issues with Quarry and it wasn't quality. It was contractual and financial. It is well known that he is not easy to do business with.

Morrissey has talked about four men being the orchestrated cause to destroy his career. It is a conspiracy theory in my view and you would have no inside knowledge to state as you do that it isn't.

Journalists from music magazines as you posted do write their opinion and that article wasn't a news article, it was his opinion on a music event. We have freedom of press thank goodness.

If you think Morrissey has lost a huge chunk of his loyal fanbase because they have all been brainwashed and manipulated by the press then you are naive and patronising. I for one have not been in any shape or form and I would not be arrogant to assume I was special in comparison to all the others who also made the same decision.

I would think his infowars posts on his own page and him walking around with a For Britain badge on would in itself have turned a large swathe of his fanbase away whether that is right or wrong. There are consequences in the world of PR and the world of Morrissey is a perfect example of that.
 
What seems really naive to me is thinking that the press' slant has no effect on the public.

The issue of free speech is irrelevant to the article I posted. You (or another anon?) had said "post a single article where the journalist is calling on people to stop listening to Morrissey" and that's exactly what I did. And there are many such articles. To suggest this kind of press has no effect is not realistic.
 
This exactly. Freedom of Speech means the government can't punish you for your speech, with very limited exceptions. Also, in the US, there is no such thing as hate speech, for anyone who does not know that, because Brits sometimes think there is.
Freedom of speech goes well beyond that. That's a very restrictive interpretation. If you feel you cannot express an opinion because you'd risk being ostracized, losing your livelihood, career, and even life, has your free speech not been compromised simply because those threats/punishments don't come from the government?
The Old Testament is completely based on local traditions and customs from the time it was written. Those passages from Deuteronomy and Exodus are also written in many different ways depending on which version of the Old Testament you read. They are not considered the basis of Christianity as the New Testament is. There isn’t a Christian alive who believes in stoning to death a woman. It was based on the customs and laws of the time.

The Hebrew bible has female role models and matriarchs such as Sarah, Rebekah, Leah and Rachel.

In the Quran it insists women are educated in the same way as men, that they can refuse a husband and the right to divorce.

But in relation to the post that was posted that led to this it doesn’t really matter.

Trying to justify the words of Andrew Tate being ok to speak by saying religions say the same thing is by the by. I don’t want my teenage boys being influenced by those interpretations of religious texts or the posts of Andrew Tate because they are easily manipulated at that age and those things don’t lead to a balanced viewpoint.

There is nothing in any “word of god” that says women are there to pleasure men which is what Tate says and they are whether they want to or not ie rape is ok.

Is that the freedom of speech we want our children to be influenced by?
This position is the same as that of people saying certain music should be censored because it has a negative influence on children and youth... it's the same argument as for any censorship really.
We cannot fully control what our children will be influenced by, but we can try to instill strong values on them and maintain an open conversation with them about any issues that might arise, such as this one.
An individual, or individuals, may boycott. They may continue alone or in concert. Either configuration counts as a boycott.

You are at times speaking for others here yourself and making plenty of implications of your own, about those who don’t agree with you being, for example, conspiracy theorists. Nobody has spent their lives praising Morrissey’s way with words without allowing for some context.

The charge is that what he said was victim-blaming. What I hear is exasperation and refusal to play the shock-sensation game. Would anything have happened to the boy if his parents had accompanied him? The point he was making, and likewise for the Holywood casting scene, is that some situations present more risks than others, and those risks may often be predictable, and related harms therefore preventable.

More context. In his Autobiography, Morrissey describes a boyhood surrounded by Irish relatives in their new host city of Manchester, with hardly any money, having sometimes to put up with living in derelict council properties, and music keeping them going. Of early school companions, he writes: “These children are slackly shaped and contaminated. Many stragglers stink, and will faint due to lack of food [and remain soaked all day if arriving in rain].” He could see that many children were worse off than him.

Aged nine, when being dragged by a teacher to the principal’s office, he was confident enough of his station in hearts to warn her, “you touch me, and my mum’ll be down.” And because the words are not empty, he knows, “there will be no beating for any case that steps this far over the line…I am well turned out, soft on the eye, soft of voice, and absent of the Jackson Crescent muddiness, and this calls for a certain consideration.”

There were people in Morrissey’s life who were looking out for him and let him know they would take action if he was abused. “Mother is a critical guide, and Dad is playful although fist-ready with the outside world…constantly called upon when family feuds demand the physical, and he is always there and always unafraid in the days when physicality ironed matters smoothly, and recipients backed down without offence.”

Perhaps that’s why he came across as categorical in that interview, being aware that carer character and behaviour is so consequential in these matters. Someone bemoaning the occurrence of abuse is hardly the same as someone approving of, or committing abuse though? Or someone maybe hinting at it, as in The Smiths’ debut album, which according to this excellent review by a MSolo subscriber, distinguishes itself by being full of all kinds of sex! - https://thestreetlampdoesntcast.blogspot.com/2010/07/kitten-wine9-everybody-wants-to-be-joe.html

The world is still having much trouble calling abuse what it is and acting accordingly. Bonfires of teenagers keep breaking out. Back in the 70s and 80s, even mentioning it was rare and brave, and what was the point, in an era without services, except for protection by your folk? Despite legal-moral fluctuations in attitudes about its seriousness, what has also changed is increasingly younger sexualisation, which cannot be without its own ramifications. If that's victim-blaming too, then it seems to me that you simply do not want to examine the many factors that possibly play a part, but are clinging to one perspective i.e. blame?

Whether in respect of filth in art or trespasses in reality, accepting even the best of us is fallible, isn't space for understanding and forgiveness healthier and more social than limiting responses to judgement and punishment? So much for freedom of speech otherwise..

Here are more relevant lines from https://yalereview.org/article/garth-greenwell-philip-roth -
"...One reason a particular strain of our current moralism—the strain that would subject artists to tests of acceptability, that says we shouldn’t consume art made by bad people—is so dismaying is that it sees works of art as endlessly fungible, just another commodity on the market. There’s so much art available to us, this reasoning goes; there’s nothing Lolita or The Enigma of Arrival or Wise Blood might offer that we can’t find in a writer less problematic than Nabokov or Naipaul or O’Connor. But a profound experience of art is an experience of something like love, which is to say of singularity; when you’ve had a profound encounter with Giovanni’s Room, say, or a portrait by Alice Neel, you can’t imagine swapping it out for something more conveniently affirming of social values we cherish.

This affinity is more mysterious than evaluation or ranking or canon-formation; it seems to me analogous to other relationships we form. The love I feel for my partner or my friends isn’t the result of comparative evaluation, it isn’t founded on a claim that of all candidates I’ve judged them worthiest. The question of comparison doesn’t enter; they are simply themselves, incommensurate, irreplaceable. My life wouldn’t be my life without them, as my life wouldn’t be my life without any number of artists who failed, in various ways large and small, to be excellent outside their art.

The problem is that, in much of our discussion of art, we’ve made a mistake about what moral engagement is, and so what art’s role in it might be. The value I find in the art I love seems different from and greater than formal experiment or technical display, greater than play, certainly greater than “metabolic churning.” Art has a value that seems to me moral, and, like my students, like much of what we’ve taken to calling The Discourse, with its purity tests and cancelations, its groupthink and dismissal, I want to think of art making as an activity with moral implications. More, I want to place it at the heart of one way of striving toward a moral life, by which I mean at the heart of our attempt to live flourishingly with others, or at least bearably and with minimal harm. The problem is that, in much of our discussion of art, I think we’ve made a mistake about what moral engagement is, and so what art’s role in it might be. In much of our commentary, there’s a desire for art to be exemplary, to present a world the moral valence of which, whether positive or negative, is easily legible; there’s a desire for the work of art to provide an index of judgment clearly predicated on values the reader can approve. We want the work to give us a place to stand that grants access to righteousness, a place from which to judge a work or its characters.

But more and more I question the role of this kind of judgment in moral life. I don’t mean the constant, shifting, provisional evaluations we make moment-to-moment, the moral echolocation by which we position ourselves and our actions. I mean the act of coming to judgment, to a verdict: of assigning someone a durable or even permanent moral status. This is sometimes necessary, of course, though maybe less often than we suspect; it’s what we do, hopefully with some seriousness, in courts of law, and what we do sometimes flippantly, recklessly, in social media campaigns for de-platforming and cancelation.

The seriousness of our verdicts depends in large part on the density of their contextualization; and, since the context of a human life is so nearly depthless and made up of such incommensurable elements, ideally righteous judgment is impossible. To be bearable, to be plausibly adequate, even our imperfect, sublunary judgments require an immense amount of work; the idea that we might carry that work out on social media is one of the genuinely repulsive aspects of our moment. I am immensely grateful, every day, that judging others in this way is not my job. The best thing about being a novelist, in fact, is that my job is actively to resist coming to such judgment. Plausibly adequate verdicts may be a necessary feature of the real world, but they are never necessary in matters of art.

When we place this kind of definitive moral judgment at the heart of our engagement with others, assigning a person or a work a status as problematic or righteous, we make a mistake about what a moral relationship to another is, I think. If a moral relationship means to live with or beside another in such a way as to recognize the value of their life as being equal to and independent of our own—that impossible, necessary Kantian standard—then passing judgment is the abrogation of that relationship: it destroys the reciprocity necessary for moral relation, it establishes a hierarchy utterly corrosive of it. This is another reason to reject the idea that we should only consume art made by good people: Who am I to judge the goodness of another?..."

and

"..In life, we bear what we can bear and risk what we can risk, and make our necessary accommodations. But in art we don’t have to make those accommodations: we can bear things in art we can’t bear in real life, and so art can offer us a crucial moral training, placing us in the impossible position, which is also the only morally defensible position, of cherishing the existence of others we cannot bear..."
That was an excellent read, thanks for posting. It's a very good point about the implied notion in the "I must approve of the artist's views to enjoy the art" idea, that any piece of art (and especially our connection and reaction to it) is fungible instead of unique, which only cheapens all of it.

But more to the issues we were arguing here, it's an excellent point about how judgmental and self-righteous the whole position is.

Ultimately, it doesn't really even matter in this respect what exactly Moz meant in his comments to Der Spiegel or what the degree of his support for For Britain is/was. Those are his opinions and we don't need to agree with them to remain fans of his/his music. We simply need to accept that he is a person different from ourselves and therefore naturally will not think or behave quite as we do or think should do. The very idea of "separating the artist from the art" suggests that the artist is persona non grata but the art might not be, which should only apply to extreme cases - say an artist who's a murderer or a child abuser - not to cases where you simply disagree with an opinion expressed (however strongly you disagree)

I understand if someone who thinks Michael Jackson was a child abuser finds they can't listen to his music anymore (and also understand if this is not the case). But when it comes to matters of opinion? Then one has to consider that 1, none of us has some sort of absolute truth (so we'd do well to at least consider the possibility that we might be wrong), and 2, even if it's the other person who's in the wrong, how does that make them somehow unacceptable as a person? Who are we to judge like this? Are we perfect?

I think it comes down to political polarization (of which self-righteousness and arrogance are essential parts). I mean, some people even cut off friends and family members out of their lives over politics, which is disgraceful.
 
What seems really naive to me is thinking that the press' slant has no effect on the public.

The issue of free speech is irrelevant to the article I posted. You (or another anon?) had said "post a single article where the journalist is calling on people to stop listening to Morrissey" and that's exactly what I did. And there are many such articles. To suggest this kind of press has no effect is not realistic.
I never said press has no effect on what the public thinks but I am talking about a huge number of loyal fans who had followed him for decades and were very used to the nonsense the press had written over those decades.

You still don't accept that I as on of those fans made my decision to not follow him anymore because of his words and his posts. I am not a consumer of "the press" so yes I can categorically state that my decision had nothing to do with anything published by the press and I can also categorically state that I have lots of friends who also followed him for decades who also made that decision and had nothing to do with the press.

Why would it need the press when fans could read and hear the words for themselves on his own site and in that recording of his own words?
 
Freedom of speech goes well beyond that. That's a very restrictive interpretation. If you feel you cannot express an opinion because you'd risk being ostracized, losing your livelihood, career, and even life, has your free speech not been compromised simply because those threats/punishments don't come from the government?
I've given the literal definition in the US
 
Freedom of speech goes well beyond that. That's a very restrictive interpretation. If you feel you cannot express an opinion because you'd risk being ostracized, losing your livelihood, career, and even life, has your free speech not been compromised simply because those threats/punishments don't come from the government?

This position is the same as that of people saying certain music should be censored because it has a negative influence on children and youth... it's the same argument as for any censorship really.
We cannot fully control what our children will be influenced by, but we can try to instill strong values on them and maintain an open conversation with them about any issues that might arise, such as this one.

That was an excellent read, thanks for posting. It's a very good point about the implied notion in the "I must approve of the artist's views to enjoy the art" idea, that any piece of art (and especially our connection and reaction to it) is fungible instead of unique, which only cheapens all of it.

But more to the issues we were arguing here, it's an excellent point about how judgmental and self-righteous the whole position is.

Ultimately, it doesn't really even matter in this respect what exactly Moz meant in his comments to Der Spiegel or what the degree of his support for For Britain is/was. Those are his opinions and we don't need to agree with them to remain fans of his/his music. We simply need to accept that he is a person different from ourselves and therefore naturally will not think or behave quite as we do or think should do. The very idea of "separating the artist from the art" suggests that the artist is persona non grata but the art might not be, which should only apply to extreme cases - say an artist who's a murderer or a child abuser - not to cases where you simply disagree with an opinion expressed (however strongly you disagree)

I understand if someone who thinks Michael Jackson was a child abuser finds they can't listen to his music anymore (and also understand if this is not the case). But when it comes to matters of opinion? Then one has to consider that 1, none of us has some sort of absolute truth (so we'd do well to at least consider the possibility that we might be wrong), and 2, even if it's the other person who's in the wrong, how does that make them somehow unacceptable as a person? Who are we to judge like this? Are we perfect?

I think it comes down to political polarization (of which self-righteousness and arrogance are essential parts). I mean, some people even cut off friends and family members out of their lives over politics, which is disgraceful.
It is strange that in your post referencing the freedom to speak that you suggest people should not be free to make their own decisions as to whether they want to follow someone or not for whatever reason they choose.

Morrissey has taught for a long time that the views and opinions of artists are important as to whether we are supposed to like them. He has criticised many artists for the opinions they have off stage throughout his career so is it a surprise that his fanbase also do the same?

You are talking about gradients of acceptability as though you have a chart of what is acceptable re actions or opinions and means you can or can't listen to the artist in terms of separating the art from the artist in the way you say for a murderer it wouldnt be possible to separate, or a child abuser, but just having an opinion on something wouldn't be justification to be unwilling to separate the artist from the art.

That line that is crossed is surely the choice of the individual according to their morals. views, and that line will vary from person to person. That line for me was well and truly crossed for the reasons I have made very clear way too many times in this thread already.

For you to suggest that is about political polarisation and suggest it is because I am arrogant and self-righteous is because you have an obvious inability to accept that people have different lines and beliefs and don't seem to have any acceptance in people's democratic choice as to who or what they listen to.

It is like the christian woman who is currently suing her child's school because they are teaching her child that same sex relationships exist. Her line is crossed because what they are saying to her child goes against her personal morals and beliefs. We all have different levels and limits as to what we will refuse to accept or listen to. It is part of the democratic society we live in. Freedom of press, consumer freedom, and the right to chose what art we follow and what art we don't.

Art to me is not just about surface music but is very much about the person making the art and the message within the art. It always has been and most of the art I follow and have close links to comes from people with messages I can relate to and support. I don't really follow meaningless pop stars and Morrissey himself has sung about that and spoken about that himself many times.

it's just more lock-jawed pop-stars
Thicker than pig-shit
Nothing to convey

What is the alternative, you force all those 1000s of long standing fans who made their rightful decision to stop spending money on him to actually spend money on him? You don't respect democratic consumer choice?

As a victim of child abuse I will not be accused of being arrogant and self-righteous when I choose not to spend money on a man who suggested the blame for the abuse of a 14yr old boy was because he should not have been in a bedroom with an adult man and he should have known better and that the victims in the me too movement were only speaking up because they were disappointed they hadn't got a good career out of the abuse they suffered. Add that to the support of a political party whose views are beyond horrific in its connections to holocaust deniers and european generation identity groups which suggest the forced deportation from Europe of all non white Christians then I think that adds up for a large number of his fanbase a significant cross over their individual lines.

Those are his opinions and we don't need to agree with them to remain fans of his/his music. We simply need to accept that he is a person different from ourselves and therefore naturally will not think or behave quite as we do or think should do.

It isn't about needing to agree with his views to remain fans of his music, it is a matter of whether for a large number of people those views are totally abhorrent and I for one can not like the music of a man who to me off stage is abhorrent and if that is self righteous and arrogant in your mind then so be it. I will sleep at night knowing you think that.

This discussion has not been about whether people should agree or not agree with his views or not agree with whatever reason people have given for stopping being fans. It is purely about whether individuals have the democratic right to make that choice for themselves and choose what they spend their money on without being told that by making that choice they are arrogant or self righteous. It could be said the arrogance lies firmly elsewhere.
 
That passage from Paul has been contested for a long time. There are issues with the original translation/ meaning. Remember these books weren’t written in any living language so everyone is at the mercy of translators and their interpretations.

Explained here:

And yet 2000 years of Catholic orthodoxy take a different opinion...
 
According to this Buddhist article on Right Speech, someone who practices it, "is the rare person who can always be counted on to be truthful and honest; who never speaks in such a way as to cause discord and is both good at and enjoys making friendships; someone whom people routinely seek out because of her sincerity, kindness, good nature, and encouragement; and one who is always to the point and worth listening to. This is an image of a wonderful, lovable human being—the kind of person we would want for a friend, and also the one that we aspire to become."

How is this skill learned?
"There is no shortcut; we learn from paying attention to every interaction and reflecting afterwards on what went right or wrong. We learn from mistakes, and also from letting others point out our mistakes: when we said things poorly, when we misunderstood, when we completely misjudged another person, when we failed to sustain a harmonious relationship. Mistakes and failures make up the rich seedbed of self-reflection and improvement..."

Maybe this gets to what is worst of all about the incursions on free speech; that since mistakes and failures are no longer allowed and will not be forgiven, exclusion at first strike, zero tolerance, is becoming acceptable?
The starting point has got to be the idea that as human beings we know nothing. Progress - if there is such a thing - is brought about by people who have the courage to think and believe differently to received wisdom. That is the space where any true artist should always reside. The last few years have clearly been problematic for Moz's chances of securing a record deal - but they appear to have been wonderful for him creatively. 2 albums of material, both of which sound great from what we have heard. Being in the wilderness clearly seems to be good for Morrissey. It's his Muse.
 
You will just put whatever words between the lines that you want.

His words are there plain to see. He clearly said a child should know what it could lead to by being in a room with an adult.

He said 14 yr old.

He said

“I do not know about you but in my youth I have never been in situations like this. Never. I was always aware of what could happen. When you are in somebody’s bedroom, you have to be aware of where that can lead to”

It is pretty obvious to most people what he was saying.

But I don’t really care if you want to imagine something different, it isn’t the point of my thread.

I ask again, is me making the decision to not like what he said and on that basis choosing not to want to spend any more of my money on him my freedom to do so and nothing to do with cancel culture?

It’s quite a simple question.
He didn't make any general point about a child being in a room with an adult. To suggest he did is completely disingenuous.
He was referring specifically to the Rapp allegation. As others have reminded you, he started by saying that the allegation 'did not sound very credible to me'. And the jury agreed with Morrissey. In the same interview he said very clearly: 'rape is disgusting [and] every physical attack is repugnant'.
Let's remind ourselves of some of the context to the Rapp allegation. Rapp alleges that he met Spacey at a gay nightclub. As a minor Rapp was there illegally. Rapp alleges that Spacey then invited him to a party at his apartment at a later date. Rapp accepted the invitation and went to the party at Spacey's apartment. This was a party for adults where there was alcohol. One can wonder whether Rapp was honest about his age. Many gay teenagers hide their age. Many teenage girls do the same.
I think most people would think that asking the questions - why was Rapp there? why wasn't his guardian looking after him? - are perfectly legitimate questions. Asking those questions doesn't mean that you think child abuse is a child's fault.
One of Morrissey's most powerful lyrics is a song about the ghosts of the child victims of Brady and Hindley haunting them for eternity. The idea that Morrissey is an apologist for paedophilia is the most absurd thing anyone on here has ever argued.
 
And yet 2000 years of Catholic orthodoxy take a different opinion...

It is always interesting when people make theological statements of fact when taking a single passage from the texts.

The Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith, the people in the Catholic Church who make the statements on theology had things to say about that passage in the 70s. You can’t really take that passage out of context on its own because if you look earlier in the same book Paul is saying women should prophesy and be also states men and women are equal with god so at face value it would appear to be a contradiction but that isn’t the case.

This covers what the Congregation said:

“It must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on their head (1 Cor 11:2-16); such requirements no longer have a normative value.

However, the Apostle's forbidding of women to speak in the assemblies (1 Cor 14:34-35; 1 Ti, 2:12) is of a different nature, and exegetes define its meaning in this way: Paul in no way opposes the right, which he elsewhere recognises as possessed by women, to prophesy in the assembly (1 Cor 11:5); the prohibition solely concerns the official function of teaching in the Christian assembly.

For Saint Paul this prescription is bound up with the divine plan of creation (1 Cor 11:7; Gen 2:18-24): it would be difficult to see in it the expression of a cultural fact.

Nor should it be forgotten that we owe to Saint Paul one of the most vigorous texts in the New Testament on the fundamental equality of men and women, as children of God in Christ (Gal 3:28).
Therefore there is no reason for accusing him of prejudices against women, when we note the trust that he shows towards them and the collaboration that he asks of them in his apostolate.”
 
It is always interesting when people make theological statements of fact when taking a single passage from the texts.

The Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith, the people in the Catholic Church who make the statements on theology had things to say about that passage in the 70s. You can’t really take that passage out of context on its own because if you look earlier in the same book Paul is saying women should prophesy and be also states men and women are equal with god so at face value it would appear to be a contradiction but that isn’t the case.

This covers what the Congregation said:

“It must be noted that these ordinances, probably inspired by the customs of the period, concern scarcely more than disciplinary practices of minor importance, such as the obligation imposed upon women to wear a veil on their head (1 Cor 11:2-16); such requirements no longer have a normative value.

However, the Apostle's forbidding of women to speak in the assemblies (1 Cor 14:34-35; 1 Ti, 2:12) is of a different nature, and exegetes define its meaning in this way: Paul in no way opposes the right, which he elsewhere recognises as possessed by women, to prophesy in the assembly (1 Cor 11:5); the prohibition solely concerns the official function of teaching in the Christian assembly.

For Saint Paul this prescription is bound up with the divine plan of creation (1 Cor 11:7; Gen 2:18-24): it would be difficult to see in it the expression of a cultural fact.

Nor should it be forgotten that we owe to Saint Paul one of the most vigorous texts in the New Testament on the fundamental equality of men and women, as children of God in Christ (Gal 3:28).
Therefore there is no reason for accusing him of prejudices against women, when we note the trust that he shows towards them and the collaboration that he asks of them in his apostolate.”
Let's boil this down to a simple fact. The religions of the book came out of a culture that thought women are 'unclean' because once a month they menstruate. That simple fact has permeated the religions of the book and their attitude towards women for millennia. I think people like Germaine Greer are absolutely right when they see the same fundamental misogyny behind trans ideology - the idea that a man can be a better woman, a more clean woman, a more pure woman, than a woman can ever be.
 
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Rapp and Spacey were both working on Broadway, they attended cast parties, Spacey invited Rapp to a club and Rapp went, said he was not asked for ID and Spacey went straight to the VIP area. The party at Spacey's apartment was a work gathering, it was not some gay orgy.
None one these mundane details matter, the topic is Morrissey's comments about pedophilia, sexual abuse and rape, how people have reacted to them, and what it's cost Morrissey.
Then Morrissey lied about making these statements and got caught in that lie, just making this entire thing even more repulsive than it was, as if anyone thought that possible.
Not only did he get the facts wrong here, but this is the very definition of victim blaming - Do not even defend this shit to me
Screenshot 2023-03-27 4.47.38 AM.png
 
He didn't make any general point about a child being in a room with an adult. To suggest he did is completely disingenuous.
He was referring specifically to the Rapp allegation. As others have reminded you, he started by saying that the allegation 'did not sound very credible to me'. And the jury agreed with Morrissey. In the same interview he said very clearly: 'rape is disgusting [and] every physical attack is repugnant'.
Let's remind ourselves of some of the context to the Rapp allegation. Rapp alleges that he met Spacey at a gay nightclub. As a minor Rapp was there illegally. Rapp alleges that Spacey then invited him to a party at his apartment at a later date. Rapp accepted the invitation and went to the party at Spacey's apartment. This was a party for adults where there was alcohol. One can wonder whether Rapp was honest about his age. Many gay teenagers hide their age. Many teenage girls do the same.
I think most people would think that asking the questions - why was Rapp there? why wasn't his guardian looking after him? - are perfectly legitimate questions. Asking those questions doesn't mean that you think child abuse is a child's fault.
One of Morrissey's most powerful lyrics is a song about the ghosts of the child victims of Brady and Hindley haunting them for eternity. The idea that Morrissey is an apologist for paedophilia is the most absurd thing anyone on here has ever argued.
You still don't get it and you still ignore his comments re the Me too complainants.

You seriously think Morrissey thought it was untrue because a 14yr old boy was alone in a bedroom with an adult when he would have been with his guardians or that he wouldn't have been at a party? There was no mention in the details of the case about who else was at the party and actually in reality the existence of a party was questioned and the term party was used by Spacey as the reason to invite the boy home so your statement that it was an adult party is factually dubious. You think 14 year olds never go to parties with adults? I know I went to many and I was also drinking alcohol and never lied about my age unless trying to get into a bar. There was no reason for me to lie when invited to a party at someone's house. Not all of us had guardians who were that interested in where we were all the time.

I know the testimony that took place, and please understand this was a civil case of battery not a criminal case. The jury didn't find him not guilty of abuse. They ruled that there was no case to pursue a battery civil case.

One interesting point I heard about that Jury though was that they didn't think when Spacey lay on top of that 14 year old boy on his bed in a bedroom on their own that it was sexual and just playful.

Spacey admitted the boy was there and he never once stated he was lied to about his age which I am sure his lawyers would have told him to do so if that was actually the case.

One wonders if they would have also considered it playful if the 14 year old boy was in fact a 14 year old girl. Would that jury still have considered it playful if an adult invites a 14 year old girl to his bedroom and proceed to lie on top of her as playful. I would put money on them not doing so. It would have had a completely different outcome.

At a time when more than 95% of abuse and rape cases never lead to a conviction I take the decision of a civil jury with a pinch of salt especially in the light of multiple charges now in the UK against Spacey for which he is going to stand a criminal trial this year in the UK including charges of penetrative sex without consent in 2003 from a claimant who was in his early 30s in 2020 but these kind of historical cases are notoriously hard to get a conviction and with the amount of money Spacey is throwing at his legal team it would not surprise me that yet again an abuse and rape case doesn't result in a conviction.

But all of that is by the by. At the time Morrissey made the statement there was none of that evidence publicly available, nor had that civil case taken place. He was only making his statement on the basis that a 14year old boy, at the time, had claimed he was abused in a bedroom by Spacey. My issue is that Morrissey's statement said, and I repeat it again:

“As far as I know, he was in a bedroom with a 14-year-old, Kevin Spacey was 26, boy 14. One wonders where the boy’s parents were. One wonders if the boy did not know what would happen. I do not know about you but in my youth I have never been in situations like this. Never. I was always aware of what could happen. When you are in somebody’s bedroom, you have to be aware of where that can lead to. That’s why it does not sound very credible to me. It seems to me that Spacey has been attacked unnecessarily.”

It couldn't be any clearer. He is saying he doesn't believe it because if it was him he would have known at 14 where being in a bedroom with an adult could lead to. Even if that 14 year old was wanting a sexual encounter and was fully aware of what could happen it is still not his responsibility legally.

There are huge cases of abuse carried out on teenagers and he knows that. Why on earth do you think he thought this case couldn't be true. You are putting an interpretation on what he said which just isn't in his words.

And with the me too comment. How do you feel about this:

"the person referred to as a victim is merely disappointed. People know exactly what's going on and they play along. Afterwards, they feel embarrassed or disliked. And then they turn it around and say: 'I was attacked, I was surprised'. But if everything went well, and if it had given them a great career, they would not talk about it."

You can imagine whatever you like and put your own interpretation on his words but as I said I don't care what you think about those comments or what excuses you make for him. It isn't the point and it is tiring that I am having to say it again.

Those discussions on those comments and all his comments have been done to death elsewhere. The point of this thread was in relation to people's freedom to choose and make their own decisions as to whether to like him and whether to spend their money on him, rather than that being any orchestrated silencing plan. It is their choice regardless of whether you think the reason for it is valid or not. I don't seek validity from you for my decisions. It is purely about my freedom to choose.
 
Rapp and Spacey were both working on Broadway, they attended cast parties, Spacey invited Rapp to a club and Rapp went, said he was not asked for ID and Spacey went straight to the VIP area. The party at Spacey's apartment was a work gathering, it was not some gay orgy.
None one these mundane details matter, the topic is Morrissey's comments about pedophilia, sexual abuse and rape, how people have reacted to them, and what it's cost Morrissey.
Then Morrissey lied about making these statements and got caught in that lie, just making this entire thing even more repulsive than it was, as if anyone thought that possible.
Not only did he get the facts wrong here, but this is the very definition of victim blaming - Do not even defend this shit to me
View attachment 90041
Pamela Anderson has a similar view, when it comes to women being in compromising situations. She seems to blame the women, in this interview, and her attitude is that of boys will be boys.
 
Let's boil this down to a simple fact. The religions of the book came out of a culture that thought women are 'unclean' because once a month they menstruate. That simple fact has permeated the religions of the book and their attitude towards women for millennia. I think people like Germaine Greer are absolutely right when they see the same fundamental misogyny behind trans ideology - the idea that a man can be a better woman, a cleaner woman, than a woman can ever be.
I am not sure you have read what I posted.

Absolutely the culture you speak of was evident in those ancient times but the New Testament, the foundation of Christianity took a very different view of women from those ancient cultures which is seen and stated throughout the writings of Paul and John and elsewhere. Clinging on to ancient cultures and suggesting that is what Christianity believes today is just not correct as it wasn’t correct in the teachings of Jesus and his apostles.
 
Rapp and Spacey were both working on Broadway, they attended cast parties, Spacey invited Rapp to a club and Rapp went, said he was not asked for ID and Spacey went straight to the VIP area. The party at Spacey's apartment was a work gathering, it was not some gay orgy.
None one these mundane details matter, the topic is Morrissey's comments about pedophilia, sexual abuse and rape, how people have reacted to them, and what it's cost Morrissey.
Then Morrissey lied about making these statements and got caught in that lie, just making this entire thing even more repulsive than it was, as if anyone thought that possible.
Not only did he get the facts wrong here, but this is the very definition of victim blaming - Do not even defend this shit to me
View attachment 90041
Yes, but Rapp wasn't a victim. Moz starts off everything he says by stating that he doesn't think the allegation is credible. A victim is not someone who makes an allegation. Someone who makes an allegation is exactly that - someone making an allegation. If we go down the route of 'victims should always be believed' then we may as well throw out every principle of justice. The word victim has been weaponised. If you choose to continue to weaponise the word - that is your choice. Moz wasn't commenting on a victim of abuse. The only time he has commented on victims of abuse was to write a song suggesting that the perpetrators will be haunted for all eternity.

At the trial Spacey's lawyer argued that Rapp made up the allegation because he was a troubled 14 year old boy who clearly had no guardian looking after him as much as they should. That is what Moz is alluding to in the quote above - and how that was different from Moz's upbringing.

From the article below:

Spacey's lawyer, Jennifer Keller, said after the trial that the defense was "very grateful to the jury for seeing through these false allegations."

During closing arguments, she told jurors that Rapp made up the encounter and suggested reasons Rapp imagined the encounter with Spacey or made it up.

It was possible, she said, that Rapp invented it based on his experience performing in "Precious Sons," a play in which actor Ed Harris picks up Rapp's character and lays on top of him, mistaking him briefly for his wife before discovering it is his son.

She also suggested that Rapp later became jealous that Spacey became a megastar while Rapp had "smaller roles in small shows" after his breakthrough performance in Broadway's "Rent."

"So here we are today and Mr. Rapp is getting more attention from this trial than he has in his entire acting life," Keller said.


And guess what? The jury agreed with this.

No victim blaming involved.

 
Yes, but Rapp wasn't a victim.
I will repeat, at the time Morrissey made his comment, Spacey had apologized for his conduct toward Rapp, which made Rapp's allegation completely credible. Morrissey's belief or disbelief is not material to the comments he made. Also, he got the story wrong, they were not in a hotel room. He did not believe the allegations against Weinstein either. Again, the details you want to keep parsing out do not matter, Morrissey's attitude toward victims of pedophila, sexual assault and rape are what this has cost him are at issue here.
Morrissey's lying about what he said is at issue here.
The thing is, no one took his freedom of speech or burned him at the stake, they just decided to stop being a fan and for some reason you have a problem with that. He exercised his freedom of speech and people reacted.
The defense attorney's argument has nothing to do with what Morrissey said.
 
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