FOS discussion

Not true...

Anonymous keeps blaming gashonthenail for bringing up transgender conflicts while repeatedly redirecting the discussion back to paedophilia Which I suppose both can do, thanks to freedom of speech here, but it might be an example of the basic ideas in contention being understood in fundamentally different ways.

"Research in the journal Open Mind shows that our concepts about and associations with even the most basic words vary widely. At the same time, people tend to significantly overestimate how many others hold the same conceptual beliefs—the mental groupings we create as shortcuts for understanding similar objects, words, or events... a mismatch that researchers say gets at the heart of the most heated debates, from the courtroom to the dinner table..." - https://www.futurity.org/disagreements-conceptual-definitions-2895192-2/ 🐧🐧🐧
 
He didn't react to a 15 year old - he reacted to things he'd heard via the media.

The very first time the press tried to "cancel" him in 1983 - they linked him to paedophilia. It's a well known homophobic trope & it's not surprising he'd be wary of it in the press.
You will just put whatever words between the lines that you want.

His words are there plain to see. He clearly said a child should know what it could lead to by being in a room with an adult.

He said 14 yr old.

He said

“I do not know about you but in my youth I have never been in situations like this. Never. I was always aware of what could happen. When you are in somebody’s bedroom, you have to be aware of where that can lead to”

It is pretty obvious to most people what he was saying.

But I don’t really care if you want to imagine something different, it isn’t the point of my thread.

I ask again, is me making the decision to not like what he said and on that basis choosing not to want to spend any more of my money on him my freedom to do so and nothing to do with cancel culture?

It’s quite a simple question.
 
He didn't react to a 15 year old - he reacted to things he'd heard via the media.

The very first time the press tried to "cancel" him in 1983 - they linked him to paedophilia. It's a well known homophobic trope & it's not surprising he'd be wary of it in the press.
“A well known homophobic trope going back to 1983?”

Jesus.

“It’s not surprising he would be wary of it in the press?”

What he said doesn’t show any sense of being wary of being linked to paedophilia at all. Far from it.

The problem isn’t the press with this. The problem is the words that came right out of his mouth and me and other fans making personal democratic choices to stop being fans because of it.

That is not cancel culture. It is freedom to choose, freedom to think, freedom to speak. Has nothing to do with whether you agree with that decision or not but pure freedom to make my own choices in life.
 
Anonymous keeps blaming gashonthenail for bringing up transgender conflicts while repeatedly redirecting the discussion back to paedophilia Which I suppose both can do, thanks to freedom of speech here, but it might be an example of the basic ideas in contention being understood in fundamentally different ways.

"Research in the journal Open Mind shows that our concepts about and associations with even the most basic words vary widely. At the same time, people tend to significantly overestimate how many others hold the same conceptual beliefs—the mental groupings we create as shortcuts for understanding similar objects, words, or events... a mismatch that researchers say gets at the heart of the most heated debates, from the courtroom to the dinner table..." - https://www.futurity.org/disagreements-conceptual-definitions-2895192-2/ 🐧🐧🐧
The only reason I brought up child abuse in my thread was to give the reason why I stopped being his fan.

Also Morrissey has commented on child abuse as stated in the quotes. He has never commented on transgender conflicts.

Whether anyone agrees with that is not my point.

I don’t care if no one on here agrees that what he said was wrong.

The point I am making is in relation to people suggesting my consumer choice is supposedly cancel culture and I state it isn’t.

Fans making that decision has nothing to do with any orchestrated cancelling. It is pure private individual choices to not spend money on someone who says things they find unacceptable.

That is freedom.
 
This isn't really a "freedom of speech" thing exactly but if anyone fancies reading a very smart (and long) essay about the current start of what art is (and is not) allowed to do, then help yourself to this. it's brilliant. (No mention at all of Morrissey, mostly about Philip Roth, but still.)
A very absorbing and thoughtful review, Bookishboy, for anyone with a half-hour to invest. Thank you.

The question of permission to depict freely runs through it and gets discussed from different angles at several points, such as here:

"The ability of art to do this moral work, the work I think it is uniquely equipped to do, depends on our acknowledging the power of a frame as a kind of magic circle separating the world of art from the actual world. I don’t mean to suggest that art is cut off from politics or history, or that this separation is absolute. I mean that representation has a fundamentally different moral and existential status from that of reality. This is a point that needs defending. The moral and political demands currently placed on art, the charge that art has responsibilities and consequences as grave as actions in the world beyond the frame, the conflation of art and activism, don’t just mistake the nature of art and art making. They make it impossible for art to do the moral work proper to it."

For another perspective, a 2019 Guardian article addresses the growth of "...the myth of the free speech crisis. It is an extension of the political-correctness myth, but is a recent mutation more specifically linked to efforts or impulses to normalise hate speech or shut down legitimate responses to it. The purpose of the myth is not to secure freedom of speech – that is, the right to express one’s opinions without censorship, restraint or legal penalty. The purpose is to secure the licence to speak with impunity; not freedom of expression, but rather freedom from the consequences of that expression..." - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/03/the-myth-of-the-free-speech-crisis

Because of free speech, we can talk about it. "How can you consciously contemplate, when there's no debate, no debate?" :tiphat: 🙏
 
The only reason I brought up child abuse in my thread was to give the reason why I stopped being his fan.

Also Morrissey has commented on child abuse as stated in the quotes. He has never commented on transgender conflicts.

Whether anyone agrees with that is not my point.

I don’t care if no one on here agrees that what he said was wrong.

The point I am making is in relation to people suggesting my consumer choice is supposedly cancel culture and I state it isn’t.

Fans making that decision has nothing to do with any orchestrated cancelling. It is pure private individual choices to not spend money on someone who says things they find unacceptable.

That is freedom.
The comment could have been formulated more carefully. Was that one of the interviews where he contested quotations after? I get confused.

Choosing no longer to be a consumer of something is indeed a not insignificant freedom. Do you know that the word boycott entered the English language after a particular incident of conflict between tenants and landlords, one of whose agents was called Charles Cunningham Boycott?
 
A very absorbing and thoughtful review, Bookishboy, for anyone with a half-hour to invest. Thank you.

The question of permission to depict freely runs through it and gets discussed from different angles at several points, such as here:

"The ability of art to do this moral work, the work I think it is uniquely equipped to do, depends on our acknowledging the power of a frame as a kind of magic circle separating the world of art from the actual world. I don’t mean to suggest that art is cut off from politics or history, or that this separation is absolute. I mean that representation has a fundamentally different moral and existential status from that of reality. This is a point that needs defending. The moral and political demands currently placed on art, the charge that art has responsibilities and consequences as grave as actions in the world beyond the frame, the conflation of art and activism, don’t just mistake the nature of art and art making. They make it impossible for art to do the moral work proper to it."

For another perspective, a 2019 Guardian article addresses the growth of "...the myth of the free speech crisis. It is an extension of the political-correctness myth, but is a recent mutation more specifically linked to efforts or impulses to normalise hate speech or shut down legitimate responses to it. The purpose of the myth is not to secure freedom of speech – that is, the right to express one’s opinions without censorship, restraint or legal penalty. The purpose is to secure the licence to speak with impunity; not freedom of expression, but rather freedom from the consequences of that expression..." - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/03/the-myth-of-the-free-speech-crisis

Because of free speech, we can talk about it. "How can you consciously contemplate, when there's no debate, no debate?" :tiphat: 🙏
Thanks for sharing the Guardian article - it's a good read, although I think there is a lot wrong in what the author argues. It is funny that she mentions someone not wanting to debate with Melanie Phillips. I mean, ffs. Melanie Phillips is many things but she is hardly far right. I wonder would the author be in favour of banning communist or socialist speakers? You could argue that such views are just as, or more, dangerous than far right views, if you go by the historical body count. I would much prefer we didn't ban anyone for their political views.

The issue is not just what one is 'allowed' to say legally - and the restrictions on speech derived from 'hate speech' legislation. In some ways much more important are the restrictions on speech derived from fear - fear of being isolated, fear of being ostracised, fear of not being promoted, fear of being sacked. That fear is rife across the public and voluntary sector these days.


There is, as I mentioned, also the fear of being attacked and killed. That, of course, is unusual in the West - but there is Salman Rushdie. The attempt to assassinate Mr Rushdie demonstrates that there is in effect a de facto Islamic blasphemy law in operation across the free world. In a more parochial way we saw that in operation recently in Wakefield, with the school boys who had scuffed a copy of the Quran.

I think we would all agree that using abusive words towards someone because of their ethnicity or religion or cultural origin is abhorrent. Although should it be a matter for the police? And if 'respect for diversity' creates a sense that no one is allowed to speak out when there is a problem in a particular community - that is wrong too. We saw what that led to - young girls being abused and no one stopping it for fear of being seen as racist or Islamophobic.

We cannot legislate badness away. If we ban words, and tear down statues, all we do is try to erase the past. We should never forget the past. The past happened. It is a fact. We should work to change the future, but not the past. We should always resist a 'year zero' mentality where we erase the past of badness and start again. We know what that led to.
 
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Thanks for sharing the Guardian article - it's a good read, although I think there is a lot wrong in what the author argues. It is funny that she mentions someone not wanting to debate with Melanie Phillips. I mean, ffs. Melanie Phillips is many things but she is hardly far right. I wonder would the author be in favour of banning communist or socialist speakers? You could argue that such views are just as, or more, dangerous than far right views, if you go by the historical body count. I would much prefer we didn't ban anyone for their political views.

The issue is not just what one is 'allowed' to say legally - and the restrictions on speech derived from 'hate speech' legislation. In some ways much more important are the restrictions on speech derived from fear - fear of being isolated, fear of being ostracised, fear of not being promoted, fear of being sacked. That fear is rife across the public and voluntary sector these days.


There is, as I mentioned, also the fear of being attacked and killed. That, of course, is unusual in the West - but there is Salman Rushdie. The attempt to assassinate Mr Rushdie demonstrates that there is in effect a de facto Islamic blasphemy law in operation across the free world. In a more parochial way we saw that in operation recently in Wakefield, with the school boys who had scuffed a copy of the Quran.

I think we would all agree that using abusive words towards someone because of their ethnicity or religion or cultural origin is abhorrent. Although should it be a matter for the police? And if 'respect for diversity' creates a sense that no one is allowed to speak out when there is a problem in a particular community - that is wrong too. We saw what that led to - young girls being abused and no one stopping it for fear of being seen as racist or Islamophobic.

We cannot legislate badness away. If we ban words, and tear down statues, all we do is try to erase the past. We should never forget the past. The past happened. It is a fact. We should work to change the future, but not the past. We should always resist a 'year zero' mentality where we erase the past of badness and start again. We know what that led to.
Also this is one from an earlier part of this thread that you never answered.

There is evidence from schools that young boys are quoting, believing and spreading the views of Andrew Tate in that they go along with his view that women are only here to pleasure and serve men.

I assume since you say you would not ban anyone that you are perfectly ok with children being manipulated in that way and we have the foundation in society of a new generation of misogynists?
 
Thanks for sharing the Guardian article - it's a good read, although I think there is a lot wrong in what the author argues. It is funny that she mentions someone not wanting to debate with Melanie Phillips. I mean, ffs. Melanie Phillips is many things but she is hardly far right. I wonder would the author be in favour of banning communist or socialist speakers? You could argue that such views are just as, or more, dangerous than far right views, if you go by the historical body count. I would much prefer we didn't ban anyone for their political views.

The issue is not just what one is 'allowed' to say legally - and the restrictions on speech derived from 'hate speech' legislation. In some ways much more important are the restrictions on speech derived from fear - fear of being isolated, fear of being ostracised, fear of not being promoted, fear of being sacked. That fear is rife across the public and voluntary sector these days.


There is, as I mentioned, also the fear of being attacked and killed. That, of course, is unusual in the West - but there is Salman Rushdie. The attempt to assassinate Mr Rushdie demonstrates that there is in effect a de facto Islamic blasphemy law in operation across the free world. In a more parochial way we saw that in operation recently in Wakefield, with the school boys who had scuffed a copy of the Quran.

I think we would all agree that using abusive words towards someone because of their ethnicity or religion or cultural origin is abhorrent. Although should it be a matter for the police? And if 'respect for diversity' creates a sense that no one is allowed to speak out when there is a problem in a particular community - that is wrong too. We saw what that led to - young girls being abused and no one stopping it for fear of being seen as racist or Islamophobic.

We cannot legislate badness away. If we ban words, and tear down statues, all we do is try to erase the past. We should never forget the past. The past happened. It is a fact. We should work to change the future, but not the past. We should always resist a 'year zero' mentality where we erase the past of badness and start again. We know what that led to.
I don’t believe the abuse of girls in Bradford was caused or allowed to continue because people were afraid to speak up. That is your opinion. When it was discovered those men were arrested.

But since you talk about such abuse it could be said that the abuse of boys in Catholic establishments was kept secret because of directives imposed by the Catholic Church, effectively silencing through Vatican legislation rather than fear. The church made victims swear a vow of secrecy to never disclose the abuse.

I don’t think anyone who has proposed the removal of statues has the objective or erasing the past. It is about whether it is appropriate to have in squares in cities that have statues of people who were key components in the slavery and deaths of thousands of people. Would you think it would be appropriate to have a statue in berlin of Heinrich Himmler?

Taking down a statue of someone doesn’t erase the past and from what I understand statues that have been removed have been taken to museums where the history of those people is fully explained. I think that is far from eradicating history but allowing people to learn what the history is. The presence of a statue doesn’t tell anyone anything about history.
 
The comment could have been formulated more carefully. Was that one of the interviews where he contested quotations after? I get confused.

Choosing no longer to be a consumer of something is indeed a not insignificant freedom. Do you know that the word boycott entered the English language after a particular incident of conflict between tenants and landlords, one of whose agents was called Charles Cunningham Boycott?
A boycott is a planned protest to try to bring about economic negativity to a product or person with an objective to also being about change.

What I have done isn’t that.

I simply chose not to spend my money on a product I felt was representing and staying views I found to be unacceptable to me.

There was no planned protest and I was not orchestrating anyone else to do the same. I never suggested to any friends that they should stop busying his products. At the time I never even told anyone that’s what I had decided.

So it isn’t a boycott according to the meaning of the word. It’s just consumer choice in the same way I might stop buying Marmite cause I stopped liking the taste.

People on here continually suggest people making that choice was an orchestrated silencing or a planned boycott. It’s not the case. People just stopped spending their money on him because they didn’t like what he was saying but the conspiracy theorists don’t find that interesting.

Also I find it strange when Morrissey fans have spent their lives staying Morrissey is a lyrical wordsmith master but when he says something that is controversial they say things as you have done like

The comment could have been formulated more carefully

I don’t see it needed to be formulated differently at all. His English and formulation or words is perfect and it is absolutely clear to me what he was saying and what he meant.

Just because you may not like it is not the reason to start saying, oh no he meant to say this or say that and he could have worded it more carefully. It was formulated very clearly to me and many others too. He is after all the wordsmith master.
 
Also this is one from an earlier part of this thread that you never answered.

There is evidence from schools that young boys are quoting, believing and spreading the views of Andrew Tate in that they go along with his view that women are only here to pleasure and serve men.

I assume since you say you would not ban anyone that you are perfectly ok with children being manipulated in that way and we have the foundation in society of a new generation of misogynists?
'women are only here to pleasure and serve men' - that sounds very much like the views of 'traditional' Christians, Jews, and Muslims. No I wouldn't want to ban such views, any more than I would want to ban those passages in the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Bible, or the Quran that such people use to justify such views. Doesn't mean I agree with such views. But I'm not in to the business of banning things I don't like.
 
'women are only here to pleasure and serve men' - that sounds very much like the views of 'traditional' Christians, Jews, and Muslims. No I wouldn't want to ban such views, any more than I would want to ban those passages in the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Bible, or the Quran that such people use to justify such views. Doesn't mean I agree with such views. But I'm not in to the business of banning things I don't like.
I’m not aware of any passages in any of those texts you mention that state a woman is there to pleasure a man unless of course you would like to provide such references?

In my world the protection of children is paramount and freedom to say anything anyone wants leading to a young boy forming ideas that suggest women are purely there for his pleasure even if she doesn’t want it are problematic.

The freedom to influence people in that way is not freedom when it leads to something that is completely the anthesis of freedom.
 
'women are only here to pleasure and serve men' - that sounds very much like the views of 'traditional' Christians, Jews, and Muslims. No I wouldn't want to ban such views, any more than I would want to ban those passages in the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Bible, or the Quran that such people use to justify such views. Doesn't mean I agree with such views. But I'm not in to the business of banning things I don't like.
There is nothing in any of these religious texts that say what you state.

In fact the Quran categorically states that men and women are equal in the eyes of god.

What you are talking about is local customs and traditions and has nothing to do with the Quran or the Bible or the Hebrew Bible. That bible has many matriarch figures.
 
The Old Testament counts women among chattel (Exodus 20:17), recommends the death penalty for brides who fail a virginity test (Deuteronomy 22:21) , compels women to marry their rapists (Deuteronomy 22:29), and has for its marriage paradigm the curse of Eden, where the Lord God says to the woman: "your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you" (Genesis 3:16). Modifications made by Christians and Muslims are generally in line with this; it's not "local custom" so much as it is an interpretation of the foundational text. It's variations on a theme.
 
The Old Testament counts women among chattel (Exodus 20:17), recommends the death penalty for brides who fail a virginity test (Deuteronomy 22:21) , compels women to marry their rapists (Deuteronomy 22:29), and has for its marriage paradigm the curse of Eden, where the Lord God says to the woman: "your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you" (Genesis 3:16). Modifications made by Christians and Muslims are generally in line with this; it's not "local custom" so much as it is an interpretation of the foundational text. It's variations on a theme.
The Old Testament is completely based on local traditions and customs from the time it was written. Those passages from Deuteronomy and Exodus are also written in many different ways depending on which version of the Old Testament you read. They are not considered the basis of Christianity as the New Testament is. There isn’t a Christian alive who believes in stoning to death a woman. It was based on the customs and laws of the time.

The Hebrew bible has female role models and matriarchs such as Sarah, Rebekah, Leah and Rachel.

In the Quran it insists women are educated in the same way as men, that they can refuse a husband and the right to divorce.

But in relation to the post that was posted that led to this it doesn’t really matter.

Trying to justify the words of Andrew Tate being ok to speak by saying religions say the same thing is by the by. I don’t want my teenage boys being influenced by those interpretations of religious texts or the posts of Andrew Tate because they are easily manipulated at that age and those things don’t lead to a balanced viewpoint.

There is nothing in any “word of god” that says women are there to pleasure men which is what Tate says and they are whether they want to or not ie rape is ok.

Is that the freedom of speech we want our children to be influenced by?
 
There is nothing in any of these religious texts that say what you state.

In fact the Quran categorically states that men and women are equal in the eyes of god.

What you are talking about is local customs and traditions and has nothing to do with the Quran or the Bible or the Hebrew Bible. That bible has many matriarch figures.
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property [for the support of women]. So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. Quran 4:34.

And how about a bit of Saint Paul: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." First letter to Timothy.
 
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property [for the support of women]. So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. Quran 4:34.

And how about a bit of Saint Paul: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." First letter to Timothy.
No wonder I'm an atheist, or, believe in my own home spun philosophies.
 
Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property [for the support of women]. So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. Quran 4:34.

And how about a bit of Saint Paul: I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." First letter to Timothy.
That passage from Paul has been contested for a long time. There are issues with the original translation/ meaning. Remember these books weren’t written in any living language so everyone is at the mercy of translators and their interpretations.

Explained here:

 
A boycott is a planned protest to try to bring about economic negativity to a product or person with an objective to also being about change.

What I have done isn’t that.

I simply chose not to spend my money on a product I felt was representing and staying views I found to be unacceptable to me.

There was no planned protest and I was not orchestrating anyone else to do the same. I never suggested to any friends that they should stop busying his products. At the time I never even told anyone that’s what I had decided.

So it isn’t a boycott according to the meaning of the word. It’s just consumer choice in the same way I might stop buying Marmite cause I stopped liking the taste.

People on here continually suggest people making that choice was an orchestrated silencing or a planned boycott. It’s not the case. People just stopped spending their money on him because they didn’t like what he was saying but the conspiracy theorists don’t find that interesting.

Also I find it strange when Morrissey fans have spent their lives staying Morrissey is a lyrical wordsmith master but when he says something that is controversial they say things as you have done like



I don’t see it needed to be formulated differently at all. His English and formulation or words is perfect and it is absolutely clear to me what he was saying and what he meant.

Just because you may not like it is not the reason to start saying, oh no he meant to say this or say that and he could have worded it more carefully. It was formulated very clearly to me and many others too. He is after all the wordsmith master.

An individual, or individuals, may boycott. They may continue alone or in concert. Either configuration counts as a boycott.

You are at times speaking for others here yourself and making plenty of implications of your own, about those who don’t agree with you being, for example, conspiracy theorists. Nobody has spent their lives praising Morrissey’s way with words without allowing for some context.

The charge is that what he said was victim-blaming. What I hear is exasperation and refusal to play the shock-sensation game. Would anything have happened to the boy if his parents had accompanied him? The point he was making, and likewise for the Holywood casting scene, is that some situations present more risks than others, and those risks may often be predictable, and related harms therefore preventable.

More context. In his Autobiography, Morrissey describes a boyhood surrounded by Irish relatives in their new host city of Manchester, with hardly any money, having sometimes to put up with living in derelict council properties, and music keeping them going. Of early school companions, he writes: “These children are slackly shaped and contaminated. Many stragglers stink, and will faint due to lack of food [and remain soaked all day if arriving in rain].” He could see that many children were worse off than him.

Aged nine, when being dragged by a teacher to the principal’s office, he was confident enough of his station in hearts to warn her, “you touch me, and my mum’ll be down.” And because the words are not empty, he knows, “there will be no beating for any case that steps this far over the line…I am well turned out, soft on the eye, soft of voice, and absent of the Jackson Crescent muddiness, and this calls for a certain consideration.”

There were people in Morrissey’s life who were looking out for him and let him know they would take action if he was abused. “Mother is a critical guide, and Dad is playful although fist-ready with the outside world…constantly called upon when family feuds demand the physical, and he is always there and always unafraid in the days when physicality ironed matters smoothly, and recipients backed down without offence.”

Perhaps that’s why he came across as categorical in that interview, being aware that carer character and behaviour is so consequential in these matters. Someone bemoaning the occurrence of abuse is hardly the same as someone approving of, or committing abuse though? Or someone maybe hinting at it, as in The Smiths’ debut album, which according to this excellent review by a MSolo subscriber, distinguishes itself by being full of all kinds of sex! - https://thestreetlampdoesntcast.blogspot.com/2010/07/kitten-wine9-everybody-wants-to-be-joe.html

The world is still having much trouble calling abuse what it is and acting accordingly. Bonfires of teenagers keep breaking out. Back in the 70s and 80s, even mentioning it was rare and brave, and what was the point, in an era without services, except for protection by your folk? Despite legal-moral fluctuations in attitudes about its seriousness, what has also changed is increasingly younger sexualisation, which cannot be without its own ramifications. If that's victim-blaming too, then it seems to me that you simply do not want to examine the many factors that possibly play a part, but are clinging to one perspective i.e. blame?

Whether in respect of filth in art or trespasses in reality, accepting even the best of us is fallible, isn't space for understanding and forgiveness healthier and more social than limiting responses to judgement and punishment? So much for freedom of speech otherwise..

Here are more relevant lines from https://yalereview.org/article/garth-greenwell-philip-roth -
"...One reason a particular strain of our current moralism—the strain that would subject artists to tests of acceptability, that says we shouldn’t consume art made by bad people—is so dismaying is that it sees works of art as endlessly fungible, just another commodity on the market. There’s so much art available to us, this reasoning goes; there’s nothing Lolita or The Enigma of Arrival or Wise Blood might offer that we can’t find in a writer less problematic than Nabokov or Naipaul or O’Connor. But a profound experience of art is an experience of something like love, which is to say of singularity; when you’ve had a profound encounter with Giovanni’s Room, say, or a portrait by Alice Neel, you can’t imagine swapping it out for something more conveniently affirming of social values we cherish.

This affinity is more mysterious than evaluation or ranking or canon-formation; it seems to me analogous to other relationships we form. The love I feel for my partner or my friends isn’t the result of comparative evaluation, it isn’t founded on a claim that of all candidates I’ve judged them worthiest. The question of comparison doesn’t enter; they are simply themselves, incommensurate, irreplaceable. My life wouldn’t be my life without them, as my life wouldn’t be my life without any number of artists who failed, in various ways large and small, to be excellent outside their art.

The problem is that, in much of our discussion of art, we’ve made a mistake about what moral engagement is, and so what art’s role in it might be. The value I find in the art I love seems different from and greater than formal experiment or technical display, greater than play, certainly greater than “metabolic churning.” Art has a value that seems to me moral, and, like my students, like much of what we’ve taken to calling The Discourse, with its purity tests and cancelations, its groupthink and dismissal, I want to think of art making as an activity with moral implications. More, I want to place it at the heart of one way of striving toward a moral life, by which I mean at the heart of our attempt to live flourishingly with others, or at least bearably and with minimal harm. The problem is that, in much of our discussion of art, I think we’ve made a mistake about what moral engagement is, and so what art’s role in it might be. In much of our commentary, there’s a desire for art to be exemplary, to present a world the moral valence of which, whether positive or negative, is easily legible; there’s a desire for the work of art to provide an index of judgment clearly predicated on values the reader can approve. We want the work to give us a place to stand that grants access to righteousness, a place from which to judge a work or its characters.

But more and more I question the role of this kind of judgment in moral life. I don’t mean the constant, shifting, provisional evaluations we make moment-to-moment, the moral echolocation by which we position ourselves and our actions. I mean the act of coming to judgment, to a verdict: of assigning someone a durable or even permanent moral status. This is sometimes necessary, of course, though maybe less often than we suspect; it’s what we do, hopefully with some seriousness, in courts of law, and what we do sometimes flippantly, recklessly, in social media campaigns for de-platforming and cancelation.

The seriousness of our verdicts depends in large part on the density of their contextualization; and, since the context of a human life is so nearly depthless and made up of such incommensurable elements, ideally righteous judgment is impossible. To be bearable, to be plausibly adequate, even our imperfect, sublunary judgments require an immense amount of work; the idea that we might carry that work out on social media is one of the genuinely repulsive aspects of our moment. I am immensely grateful, every day, that judging others in this way is not my job. The best thing about being a novelist, in fact, is that my job is actively to resist coming to such judgment. Plausibly adequate verdicts may be a necessary feature of the real world, but they are never necessary in matters of art.

When we place this kind of definitive moral judgment at the heart of our engagement with others, assigning a person or a work a status as problematic or righteous, we make a mistake about what a moral relationship to another is, I think. If a moral relationship means to live with or beside another in such a way as to recognize the value of their life as being equal to and independent of our own—that impossible, necessary Kantian standard—then passing judgment is the abrogation of that relationship: it destroys the reciprocity necessary for moral relation, it establishes a hierarchy utterly corrosive of it. This is another reason to reject the idea that we should only consume art made by good people: Who am I to judge the goodness of another?..."

and

"..In life, we bear what we can bear and risk what we can risk, and make our necessary accommodations. But in art we don’t have to make those accommodations: we can bear things in art we can’t bear in real life, and so art can offer us a crucial moral training, placing us in the impossible position, which is also the only morally defensible position, of cherishing the existence of others we cannot bear..."
 
Thanks for sharing the Guardian article - it's a good read, although I think there is a lot wrong in what the author argues. It is funny that she mentions someone not wanting to debate with Melanie Phillips. I mean, ffs. Melanie Phillips is many things but she is hardly far right. I wonder would the author be in favour of banning communist or socialist speakers? You could argue that such views are just as, or more, dangerous than far right views, if you go by the historical body count. I would much prefer we didn't ban anyone for their political views.

The issue is not just what one is 'allowed' to say legally - and the restrictions on speech derived from 'hate speech' legislation. In some ways much more important are the restrictions on speech derived from fear - fear of being isolated, fear of being ostracised, fear of not being promoted, fear of being sacked. That fear is rife across the public and voluntary sector these days.


There is, as I mentioned, also the fear of being attacked and killed. That, of course, is unusual in the West - but there is Salman Rushdie. The attempt to assassinate Mr Rushdie demonstrates that there is in effect a de facto Islamic blasphemy law in operation across the free world. In a more parochial way we saw that in operation recently in Wakefield, with the school boys who had scuffed a copy of the Quran.

I think we would all agree that using abusive words towards someone because of their ethnicity or religion or cultural origin is abhorrent. Although should it be a matter for the police? And if 'respect for diversity' creates a sense that no one is allowed to speak out when there is a problem in a particular community - that is wrong too. We saw what that led to - young girls being abused and no one stopping it for fear of being seen as racist or Islamophobic.

We cannot legislate badness away. If we ban words, and tear down statues, all we do is try to erase the past. We should never forget the past. The past happened. It is a fact. We should work to change the future, but not the past. We should always resist a 'year zero' mentality where we erase the past of badness and start again. We know what that led to.
According to this Buddhist article on Right Speech, someone who practices it, "is the rare person who can always be counted on to be truthful and honest; who never speaks in such a way as to cause discord and is both good at and enjoys making friendships; someone whom people routinely seek out because of her sincerity, kindness, good nature, and encouragement; and one who is always to the point and worth listening to. This is an image of a wonderful, lovable human being—the kind of person we would want for a friend, and also the one that we aspire to become."

How is this skill learned?
"There is no shortcut; we learn from paying attention to every interaction and reflecting afterwards on what went right or wrong. We learn from mistakes, and also from letting others point out our mistakes: when we said things poorly, when we misunderstood, when we completely misjudged another person, when we failed to sustain a harmonious relationship. Mistakes and failures make up the rich seedbed of self-reflection and improvement..."

Maybe this gets to what is worst of all about the incursions on free speech; that since mistakes and failures are no longer allowed and will not be forgiven, exclusion at first strike, zero tolerance, is becoming acceptable?
 
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