Fat People

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
As long as you are comfortable with being fat, you will remain fat. You have to get out of that comfort zone in order to change. You have to hate fatness in order to reject it. You need to become INTOLERANT to it. (Not intolerant to fat people. Big difference. I hate smoking. So I won't smoke. I do not hate smokers.)




Bullshit. You are in denial lady.






Absolutely not.

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Fat apologists and Morrissey apologists seem to be one in the same. Interesting.

Jesus you are really STRETCHING with that one Jehne.

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RB, this discussion could go on forever. You have knowledge, but no insight, and that's all I have to say. A thin person researching and second-guessing at the neuroses, motivations, mental machinations etc of people who are overweight is as redundant as me writing a book about Arizona and then telling you what it's like to live there, even though I've never set foot in the place and I live 5000 miles away. Telling people that their thoughts and experiences are wrong because they don't fit in with your pet theories, well, firstly it is stupendously arrogant and secondly it pretty much dead-ends a discussion. People are not walking equations, where you simply have to memorise a bit of formula and have them all worked out.

This is a really solid point which I'm sure RB will debunk (in her mind at least) with that most compelling of ripostes, 'I don't believe you.' Right, case closed then. :lbf:
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
Overfeeding starts and ends in the mind. You can will yourself to not overfeed. It is all about attitude. I am currently writing a book about this exact thing. Will share it with you when/if I ever finish.

But when you have laboratory tests showing mice becoming more addicted to white sugar than cocaine the problem is a bit more complex than being a matter of sheer 'willpower' and shows a certain naivete on your side. When you have fast moving consumer good companies and supermarkets literally hiring psychologists to tell them where to place their goods on which shelves and what music to play in the store on what day at certain times tells me there is far bigger agenda at play. Fat folks really are up against it.

Don't get me wrong I DO agree that willpower plays a part but to say it is willpower alone is the solution is overly simplistic IMHO.
 

realitybites

making lemonade
Subscriber
But when you have laboratory tests showing mice becoming more addicted to white sugar than cocaine the problem is a bit more complex than being a matter of sheer 'willpower' and shows a certain naivete on your side. When you have fast moving consumer good companies and supermarkets literally hiring psychologists to tell them where to place their goods on which shelves and what music to play in the store on what day at certain times tells me there is far bigger agenda at play. Fat folks really are up against it.

Don't get me wrong I DO agree that willpower plays a part but to say it is willpower alone is the solution is overly simplistic IMHO.

Addicted to sugar? Not so fast: High fructose corn syrup is addictive-myth vs science
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.

You and I both know we can Google the shit out of this and trade links back and forth but I prefer to follow the trail of money. Food companies of all varieties not just the fast food guys, have been steadily adding white sugar to a massive amount of their products over the past decade. Now why is that? Coincidentally we have seen an obesity epidemic all over the western world. Are there other factors at play? Absolutely, but ask yourself the basic question, if white sugar isn't addictive why do manufacturers keep adding vast quantities of it to their products? Big business NEVER does anything without a damn good reason.
 

realitybites

making lemonade
Subscriber
You and I both know we can Google the shit out of this and trade links back and forth but I prefer to follow the trail of money. Food companies of all varieties not just the fast food guys, have been steadily adding white sugar to a massive amount of their products over the past decade. Now why is that? Coincidentally we have seen an obesity epidemic all over the western world. Are there other factors at play? Absolutely, but ask yourself the basic question, if white sugar isn't addictive why do manufacturers keep adding vast quantities of it to their products? Big business NEVER does anything without a damn good reason.

Because it is a cheap filler. Same reason whey is added to thousands of products. Humans (and rats apparently) like the taste of sugar. We also like the taste of salt and umami. Are they also addictive? Do you understand what addiction is?

The more a food is processed the more value is added to it. Sugar is highly processed. Add it to cookies and you have a highly processed junk food with a huge mark-up. It isn't about creating addictive consumers. It is about creating a product that folks desire. Desire does not equal addiction. I crave meat. Am I addicted to it? Will I have withdrawal symptoms if I abstain? Anything can be 'addictive'--technically. And any addiction can be overcome with willpower. Even cocaine and heroin.
 

Charlie Cheswick

Well-Known Member
Because it is a cheap filler. Same reason whey is added to thousands of products. Humans (and rats apparently) like the taste of sugar. We also like the taste of salt and umami. Are they also addictive? Do you understand what addiction is?

The more a food is processed the more value is added to it. Sugar is highly processed. Add it to cookies and you have a highly processed junk food with a huge mark-up. It isn't about creating addictive consumers. It is about creating a product that folks desire. Desire does not equal addiction. I crave meat. Am I addicted to it? Will I have withdrawal symptoms if I abstain? Anything can be 'addictive'--technically. And any addiction can be overcome with willpower. Even cocaine and heroin.

There are lots of things that can be used as cheap filler, why use sugar over all of those?

.
 

bhops

Last of the famous international screw ups.
There are lots of things that can be used as cheap filler, why use sugar over all of those?

.

Yeah she doesn't get it does she? Sugar is chosen for a specific reason. For someone who thinks of herself as freethinker I find Jehne often thinks in absolutes. She often finds herself at the xtreme end of an argument, either black or white and engaged in epic e-battles.

There is a lot of grey in the whole obesity epidemic problem but white sugar in processed foods plays a large part and you'd have to be borderline retarded to not see that.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
i confess to sorta loving this, "When you have fast moving consumer good companies and supermarkets literally hiring psychologists to tell them where to place their goods on which shelves and what music to play in the store on what day at certain times tells me there is far bigger agenda at play" but its not just that its almost everything you encounter in your day. understanding even the basics of social theater is empowering. funny thing is that with the information age, people having access to info at there beck and call, has only made the common person more insecure as they learn that what they thought was true wasnt, with the embarrassment causing them to ask even less questions than before.

at the end of the day i dont think being fat is healthy but hey i smoke pot which is for sure unhealthy so its not like im trying to preach healthy living, only to suggest it and its advantages but i do believe that people have a right to live a somewhat unhealthy life. i have to remember that even my care can be counterproductive to my goal
 

123xyz

Well-Known Member
Subscriber
I have plenty of insight. Does a psychiatrist have to have schizophrenia in order to understand this mental illness? No. Does a biologist need to be a frog in order to understand its nature? No. Your logic is seriously wonky.


I don't necessarily agree with many of your remarks here , RB, but you're dead right in refuting the notion that some experience could be intrinsically private/unknow-able ...
 

scumbag

Active Member
Subscriber
i'm not sure if addiction's the main issue with eating sugar or high fructose corn syrup. i think, for some people, impulse control is a major issue. my mom has a major sweet tooth, for instance. she has a genuinely difficult time NOT eating a pastry if it's put in front of her. she knows she's over-weight, but she gives in to the immediate temptation of the pastry. if i recall correctly, many years ago scientists tried to see if a group of young children differed in impulse control. what was the test-object? a doughnut, or something else quite sweet. if the kids could put off eating the doughnut for a few minutes, they were told they'd get TWO doughnuts for waiting! guess what? not a lot of the kids waited, but - in the near present! - the same scientists looked at the same test population. those who demonstrated better impulse control were: healthier, more successful and happier, in general. again, this is just from my memory everyone. anyway, there you are: impulse control as a reason for fatness :)

Because it is a cheap filler. Same reason whey is added to thousands of products. Humans (and rats apparently) like the taste of sugar. We also like the taste of salt and umami. Are they also addictive? Do you understand what addiction is?

The more a food is processed the more value is added to it. Sugar is highly processed. Add it to cookies and you have a highly processed junk food with a huge mark-up. It isn't about creating addictive consumers. It is about creating a product that folks desire. Desire does not equal addiction. I crave meat. Am I addicted to it? Will I have withdrawal symptoms if I abstain? Anything can be 'addictive'--technically. And any addiction can be overcome with willpower. Even cocaine and heroin.
 

Eurydice

New Member
The day any gal starts taking health/eating advice from (or arguing with) a grown woman who has an eating disorder is a sad, sad day.


There. This thread is now over. Move on. Nothing to see here.

P.S. Crystal Geezer, you're perfect. You're kind and healthy and fun. You're perfect.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
I have plenty of insight. Does a psychiatrist have to have schizophrenia in order to understand this mental illness? No. Does a biologist need to be a frog in order to understand its nature? No. Your logic is seriously wonky.

I have no desire to get involved in lengthy and increasingly unpleasant e-arguments, RB, but please let me explain.

Your analysis of overweight human beings is built upon the same mindset one might expect when analysing rats in a laboratory, i.e these creatures are fundamentally and structurally the same, their environment is the same, their stimulus is the same, and thus we can expect fair and consistent results from our tests. Fat people are all ABC (ignorant, addicted, lacking in pride, shamed) because of XYZ (laziness, boredom, addiction, mental health), and you just won't go beyond that or accept any other reality. You're twisting the results to fit the hypothesis, and complex human beings can't be decoded in such simplistic ways.

Let me give you an example. Let's take an overweight woman of 50; she's middle-class, divorced, works part-time and raises 2 teenagers on her own. She is not going to have the same reasons for her weight gain (or the same attitude to it) as an insecure 18 year old who is starting college and maybe just doesn't exercise enough. The idea that you can study a while and then point fingers at a tremendous spectrum of people and think you have their psychology "solved" just because they're all fat, well, it's ridiculous. As ridiculous and strangely self-aggrandising as someone who reads a book by Robert Hare and thinks they have become a psychiatrist, and are able to detect psychopaths on sight. Simplistic, black-and-white supposition.
 
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I have no desire to get involved in lengthy and increasingly unpleasant e-arguments, RB, but please let me explain.

Your analysis of overweight human beings is built upon the same mindset one might expect when analysing rats in a laboratory, i.e these creatures are fundamentally and structurally the same, their environment is the same, their stimulus is the same, and thus we can expect fair and consistent results from our tests. Fat people are all ABC (ignorant, addicted, lacking in pride, shamed) because of XYZ (laziness, boredom, addiction, mental health), and you just won't go beyond that or accept any other reality. You're twisting the results to fit the hypothesis, and complex human beings can't be decoded in such simplistic ways.

Let me give you an example. Let's take an overweight woman of 50; she's middle-class, divorced, works part-time and raises 2 teenagers on her own. She is not going to have the same reasons for her weight gain (or the same attitude to it) as an insecure 18 year old who is starting college and maybe just doesn't exercise enough. The idea that you can study a while and then point fingers at a tremendous spectrum of people and think you have their psychology "solved" just because they're all fat, well, it's ridiculous. As ridiculous and strangely self-aggrandising as someone who reads a book by Robert Hare and thinks they have become a psychiatrist, and are able to detect psychopaths on sight. Simplistic, black-and-white supposition.

I don't know what any of that meant but it sounded intelligent. Go you. :rolleyes:
 

zepfan1

New Member
Reality and Crystal... please read - you two are driving me crazy :crazy:

Being on both sides of the fence I understand both of your views. Let me tell you about my situation

At my heaviest I weighed 290 lbs. I had a gastric bypass when I was 17 and lost 150 lbs. Over the years I have gained 60 plus?? not sure prob more of it back which I am not happy about, however, here is what I have learned:


There is a set weight and a healthy weight for everyone. It does depend on lifestyle etc but genetics are involved as well. Eating right and exercising will always be the best way to go, however, there are other factors that contribute to weight in certain people.

Genetics does have a small consideration but you must look at the overall picture. Does the person who is underweight or overweight (outside their natural and most healthy weight for their body type) have an eating disorder? Compulsive overeating, undereating, purging etc.. are they an emotional eater... these are all things to consider.

It is not an easy one fit for any person. In my case I am an emotional overeater with a tendency of having a higher natural body weight in my family history. Do I think that I am at a good weight for my body right now - no but I am working on getting back to the healthiest weight for my frame and age.

Losing weight or gaining weight for that matter is one of the hardest things that you will do. Losing weight is tough - try being addicted to food and not having control over the compulsion to overeat. You must eat to live. On the other hand, not eating is just as bad and a battle as well.

For the people that have a healthy relationship with food or body image I applaud you. Try walking in each others shoes. Its a daily struggle on both sides.

Now..as far as appearance.. Crystal Darling... mom jeans ? You can do better than that. You are certainly not a size 22 at 218 lbs? Ann Taylor goes up to 18 and JCrew goes to 16. I love clothes and trust me they will fit and flatter you at that weight.. where I am is approx where you are. Keep working on it but lose the jeans they are too big and you are too young to wear them.
 

realitybites

making lemonade
Subscriber
Reality and Crystal... please read - you two are driving me crazy :crazy:

Being on both sides of the fence I understand both of your views. Let me tell you about my situation

At my heaviest I weighed 290 lbs. I had a gastric bypass when I was 17 and lost 150 lbs. Over the years I have gained 60 plus?? not sure prob more of it back which I am not happy about, however, here is what I have learned:


There is a set weight and a healthy weight for everyone. It does depend on lifestyle etc but genetics are involved as well. Eating right and exercising will always be the best way to go, however, there are other factors that contribute to weight in certain people.

Genetics does have a small consideration but you must look at the overall picture. Does the person who is underweight or overweight (outside their natural and most healthy weight for their body type) have an eating disorder? Compulsive overeating, undereating, purging etc.. are they an emotional eater... these are all things to consider.

It is not an easy one fit for any person. In my case I am an emotional overeater with a tendency of having a higher natural body weight in my family history. Do I think that I am at a good weight for my body right now - no but I am working on getting back to the healthiest weight for my frame and age.

Losing weight or gaining weight for that matter is one of the hardest things that you will do. Losing weight is tough - try being addicted to food and not having control over the compulsion to overeat. You must eat to live. On the other hand, not eating is just as bad and a battle as well.

For the people that have a healthy relationship with food or body image I applaud you. Try walking in each others shoes. Its a daily struggle on both sides.

Now..as far as appearance.. Crystal Darling... mom jeans ? You can do better than that. You are certainly not a size 22 at 218 lbs? Ann Taylor goes up to 18 and JCrew goes to 16. I love clothes and trust me they will fit and flatter you at that weight.. where I am is approx where you are. Keep working on it but lose the jeans they are too big and you are too young to wear them.

Thanks for sharing your insight and experience. I agree with you on all points--especially the part about the mom jeans. As long as we do our best no one can fault us. Nice jeans, plucked brows, a little makeup, a nice haircut can do wonders for any body type.
 

CrystalGeezer

My secret's my enzyme.
Thanks for sharing your insight and experience. I agree with you on all points--especially the part about the mom jeans. As long as we do our best no one can fault us. Nice jeans, plucked brows, a little makeup, a nice haircut can do wonders for any body type.

Omg. I like my eyebrows. I like my pubes. I like my tits. I like and flabby thighs. I like my happy trail. I like my makeupless face. I like what God gave me to work with.
 
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