Everyone wants to know if Morrissey is straight or gay

There has been speculation that M. was sexually exploited or abused as a child or teenager- I feel there is strong textual evidence that he was. This Charming Man (which is so laden with class references, also) and Reel Around the Fountain, plus Headmaster Ritual ("please excuse me from gym
I've got this terrible cold coming on
he grabs and devours
kicks me in the showers
and he grabs and devours
I wanna go home
I don't want to stay")
Oh, for f***'s sake. Headmaster's Ritual was about corporal punishment (i.e. beatings...not sexual abuse, FYI) that went on in schools of that time, and specifically it was about Morrissey's former school, St Mary's, and its headmaster, Jet Morgan. Although Morrissey himself, by all accounts I've read and by his own admission, never received beatings at school, many other pupils did. Please try to get some information about the context of the songs the next time. :rolleyes:

And how many more times will I have to see the crap about Reel Around The Fountain allegedly being about child abuse? The whole thing only started because some people take everything literally and don't realize that the line 'it's time the tale was told of how you took a child and you made him old' doesn't refer to an actual child. Even though Morrissey explained years and years ago that it's about loss of innocence, that 'you're a child until you've had sexual contact with another person'.

To suggest that someone must have been sexually abused as a child just because they wrote a song like This Charming Man is ridiculous. People have written songs that were, unlike TCM, very explicitly and openly about child abuse (e.g. Nick Cave's "Do You Love Me? part 2"), but, guess what, not everything a person writes has to be autobiographical!


And I believe also that he is gay. I mean, why Piccadilly Palare?
...it's a song about male prostitution, written from the POV of a rent boy. Morrissey as a songwriter is telling a story. Are you now going to suggest it's autobiographical and that he has worked as a prostitute? Or wanted to work as one? Anyway, many male prostitutes aren't gay, or even bisexual per se, they just do what they have to do. Just as there are many female prostitutes who are lesbians but have sex with men as a part of their job. Prostitutes are usually not after sexual pleasure. Let's go on....

Why Hand in Glove?
Why Hand In Glove?

There are too, too many hints. Except... I can see not coming out in 1984. But it's 2007. Why wouldn't you come out, now? I actually have less and less respect for people in the public eye who don't come out. Admittedly, M. does not say that he isn't gay or straight, even still. Which is just getting coy and annoying. OUT with it! Show some self-respect. Will I be flamed for that? I hope not, it's my own opinion.

The candy store song is interesting- I don't know that one. It does sound like he's desperately trying to convince himself that he isn't 100% gay, though.

I love the man, either way.
He has self-respect, that's exactly why he insists on being himself. What right do you have to determine what someone else's sexuality must be? You've never met him, but it seems you know more about him that he knows himself? :rolleyes: I'd be really annoyed if I was him. And it seems he is annoyed, as he said: "I don't mind it when people question it (his sexuality), but I do mind it when they assume - as if they know more about me than I do."

The candy store song is interesting- I don't know that one. It does sound like he's desperately trying to convince himself that he isn't 100% gay, though.
Looks like you're desperately trying to convince yourself that he's gay.


This is directed at everyone who insists Morrissey is gay but is somehow afraid to "come out" (yeah right, we all know he's afraid of doing anything that might offend people or create controversy! :rolleyes: ) :

Why do you even care? If he were gay, would that help you somehow? What if he, hypothetically, "came out" and said "I am straight", would that crush you? What difference does it make to you? You say you love him either way, well then why do you insist on him "coming out"? Why don't you just accept him the way he is?

You are all being so narrow-minded, and frankly, I don't see any difference between your attitude, and the attitude of those people who can't accept the fact that some people are gay, and who insist that gay people must be 'ill' or have psychological trouble just because they 'think' they're gay, and that they need 'help' to be 'cured' from homosexuality. They're denying other people, adult people, the right to decide for themselves what they are, and treating them as children or patients who need to be 'shown the right way' and put on the right path of heterosexuality. And you are doing pretty much the same thing. You're patronizing Morrissey and trying to decide for him, and you seem to believe that he needs to be 'shown the way' and put on the right path of homosexuality. But you can't decide anyone else's sexuality for them. How could you possibly know how they feel?
 
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One child would have been the instigator or aggressor, that may or may not be the older child. Likely that child would have been abused by someone else.
Please tell, where exactly did you get all your vast knowledge on child abuse?
 
You know, I was going to ask the same thing. Why are you so terribly offended by my opinion? Am I not entitled to have one? He's putting out these little quasi-autobiographical stories, and I read them and see what they say to me. And that's what we're discussing here.

I never expect to meet M. However, it sounds like you're expecting him to knock on your door any moment. So maybe I'll let you to that. Good luck.
 
Because they're annoying the hell out of me with their stupid (non)arguments and their attitude. Is that reason good enough?

Just a piece of advice. Next time someone's winding you up take a look at the post count before you respond. We have a persistent troll on this board who invents new user names and comes on here to wind people up about the "gay" issue. This is not a new poster, you can be sure of that. Obviously the gay issue has lost it's annoyance value now so he's started using the child abuse issue.

I can guarantee you he's (and it is a he) sitting at his computer screen laughing moronically at the fact he has managed to wind someone up yet again.
 
Because they're annoying the hell out of me with their stupid (non)arguments and their attitude.
wow, i was just myself looking over the thread :o
& there is a truly staggering, even for this site, amount within it
with which to be annoyed @ :confused:
therefore, i give it
NRV.png
:(
 
What about the other Smiths...

I hope this question isn't off-topic, but what did the other members of The Smiths think of the homoerotic imagery used in the early years of the band? No matter how gay-friendly or tolerant they may have been, I would imagine it was kind of worrying to see the cover photos of the "Hand In Glove" single and the first album (blow job scene from a Warhol film). Most straight guys, I imagine, would not be thrilled to be associated with a "gay band" image.
 
Re: What about the other Smiths...

I think other members somehow trusted the artistic direction of Morrissey.
Morrissey had a clear vision of the band image and managed to convince them to follow his idea.
Personally I didn't find Hand In Glove's sleeve as homo erotic and I didn't know about Warhol/Paul Morrissey's film "Flesh" which steel is used for the first album.
Both of the image are used very tasteful manner and very iconic.
You can see their influence on the numerous other bands notably Gene and Belle and Sebastian's sleeve designs.
 
No, actually I am a real new user and not a troll. And I am a woman and not a man.

But, once again I forgot what some message boards are like. So I'll just back away and leave you to your crazy in peace. Have fun with that... or whatever.
 
Re: What about the other Smiths...

I hope this question isn't off-topic, but what did the other members of The Smiths think of the homoerotic imagery used in the early years of the band? No matter how gay-friendly or tolerant they may have been, I would imagine it was kind of worrying to see the cover photos of the "Hand In Glove" single and the first album (blow job scene from a Warhol film). Most straight guys, I imagine, would not be thrilled to be associated with a "gay band" image.
Off-topic or not, it's a very welcome change from the recent discussions on this thread.

Rourke and Joyce seem to have been embarassed, I presume they just kept quiet because they realized they were in a great band and that Morrissey had unusual artistic ideas.

" 'I remember showing a copy to my Dad', Rourke reminisces, saying "This is my first record". He was mortified. He said to me "that's a bloke's bum" and I said "yeah" but when he asked me why I just didn't have an answer for him.'"

("Songs That Saved Your Life", 2nd edition, page 42)


"There had been the daffodils, boxes of them thrown into the crowd at gigs. Then there had been the lyrics to This Charming Man — where a rosy-cheeked young cyclist is rescued from his punture by a curiously obliging country gent — and the muscular male nude on the cover of the Hand In Glove single. however, it was when Morrissey suggested a still photo of Joe Dallesandro from Andy Warhol's Flesh as the band's debut album cover that the penny finally dropped for Mike Joyce.

"What's going on in the rest of that picture is pretty interesting," says The Smiths' drummer today. "You know, with another geezer. Morrissey's going, 'This is the album cover,' and I'm like (tired resignation), Oh great, cool, whatever. After the cover of Hand In Glove, this was like, Wa-a-a-it, hold on a minute. Very cleverly he didn't tell me the picture was going to be cropped. I could imagine my parents going (Mrs Doyle voice): 'Well, that's nice, Michael.' The local priest, all my relatives..." "

http://foreverill.com/interviews/post87/timemachine.htm

But I get an impression that Johnny thought it was all a good idea and that it would set them apart from other bands.This is, according to "Severed Alliance", what he thought about The Smiths' first gig at the Manchester Ritz (the one where they covered The Cookies' 'I Want a Boy For My Birthday' and had James Maker as a dancer) :

"Meanwhile, Maher* was already looking back judiciously at the Ritz show as an incongruous but effective means of of attracting local attention. "We only played three songs and we got paid", he joked. Maher was shrewdly aware that, even if The Smiths were denied mainstream success, they possessed enough original qualities to win a substantial cult following. According to Moss, "Johnny initially didn't think they'd have a mass audience, but thought it might appeal to the gay crowd - he knew it would get them known." "
(page 151)

* Marr's real name, this was before he changed the spelling

There are also some interesting comments in "Songs That Saved Your Life" about the Smiths' first bassist, Dale Hibbert. He claims that he was sacked because The Smiths were planning a 'gay band' image, and that Hibbert didn't fit in because he was married with kids. "It was Steven's idea. I mean the tape of 'I Want a Boy...' was going to be on the first demo, so obviously a song like that would go hand in hand with that kind of image. Steven said "We're going to be a gay band, but in a Tom Robinson, effeminate kind of way, but in the undelying macho type way." It was a very strongly manufactured image that was being prepared".

Johnny says that's not true and it's only a wrong impression that Dale got.

" 'Well I'm guessing if I was Dale', Marr coolly responds, 'and you're stood on the stage with a guy in women's shoes, playing 'I Want A Boy For My Birthday', around a very effete little guitar player and an unfathomable singer, then he's probably right on the money, isn't he? But we didn't sit down with Dale and say "Hey Dale - get on with the programme!" We hardly knew him for a start. I think that's a bit clumsy that whole area and we just weren't and aren't that clumsy. Us doing that Cookies song was absolutely echoing The New York Dolls, who everyone had forgotten about but Morrissey hadn't and I hadn't. We wanted to bring something to our audience that The Dolls and Patti Smith had brought to us. That was it."
(page 28)

(It's stated in "Severed Alliance" that Dale was sacked simply because he was a bad bass player - it's even been said that he was only in the group because he owned the equipment.)
 
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Re: What about the other Smiths...

I think other members somehow trusted the artistic direction of Morrissey.
Morrissey had a clear vision of the band image and managed to convince them to follow his idea.
Personally I didn't find Hand In Glove's sleeve as homo erotic and I didn't know about Warhol/Paul Morrissey's film "Flesh" which steel is used for the first album.
Both of the image are used very tasteful manner and very iconic.
You can see their influence on the numerous other bands notably Gene and Belle and Sebastian's sleeve designs.
Well, the cover of Hand In Glove doesn't show two men having sex, fondling or kissing. It shows a naked man. If you're a woman, why would you see it as homoerotic?

It's homoerotic only if you presume that the viewer is male, and that it's intended to arouse him.

Thousands and thousands of images of naked women have been used for album/singles covers, book covers, magazine covers, newspapers... and I don't remember anyone ever calling them homoerotic? Yet, I don't believe the target audience didn't include any females?

I've seen the Paul Morrissey film "Flesh", it's very interesting. Did anyone else see it? I downloaded it, but my copy isn't in the best condition, some parts are missing, including part of that scene.
 
Re: What about the other Smiths...

I've seen the Paul Morrissey film "Flesh", it's very interesting. Did anyone else see it? I downloaded it, but my copy isn't in the best condition, some parts are missing, including part of that scene.

Haven't seen Flesh, though I am somewhat of a Warhol obsessive and have been slowly hunting down and watching his films. It's not an easy task finding them.

:)
 
You don't think M actually reads this, do you? Besides, did he not say, "I am open, it's all in the songs?" And he also has said that his first sexual experience happened when he was 12 or 13. I would maintain that 12-13 year olds are not capable of having a truly consensual sexual relationship. There is no such thing as consent for a person that young. Sexual abuse often leads to problems in developing a healthy adult sexuality. It all adds up. And, it actually doesn't reflect at all on him. You can't always control what people do to you. You can only potentially control your reaction to it.

I think someone's been watching a wee bit too much Law & Order.
 
I would maintain that 12-13 year olds are not capable of having a truly consensual sexual relationship. There is no such thing as consent for a person that young. Sexual abuse often leads to problems in developing a healthy adult sexuality.

12-13 year olds are having sex with eachother all the time these days. and its consensual. they probably dont really know/understand what theyre doing half the time, but unfortunately it does happen. just b/c someone who is that young has had a sexual experience, doesnt mean it was abuse. in alot of cases theyre probably just young, horny and curious.
 
I think that the way that PregnantfortheLastTime's comment was reacted to is very unfair- it was one side of the story, her interpretation, and I think that instead of encouraging people to participate, this just makes them turn their back on this rather solid Morrissey community and not come back. We are a small community, you all must admitt, and if we don't stick together, well...there won't be a place where we can discuss one of the most influential people in our lives.

She never said "this is it, there's no way around it". I myself have had thoughts that mirror what she said. I am sure a couple of your have had your minds crossed by a similar idea. However, I do understand that child abuse, rape, sexuall assault are all topics that should not really be directly discussed about a person so openly. I mean, if we don't personally know Morrissey, it still doesn't make it ok. But I still don't think she meant to harm anyone, and was merely adding her own input to the topic...a topic that invades Morrissey's privacy enough...so all of you that got offended by her comment, are just a tiny. tiny bit hypocritical.
 
I think someone's been watching a wee bit too much Law & Order.
i hate that show :(
to think how many americans know must of what little they do about 'the law & crime'
via osmosis from programs like that! :eek:
but it* does explain much injustice though :cool:


*= it here being not that the show 'informs' the viewer with knowledge of legal practice
but instead how american cop and robber programs reinforce a societal norm of
'law and order' being far more important THAN JUSTICE :o
 
Re: What about the other Smiths...

There are also some interesting comments in "Songs That Saved Your Life" about the Smiths' first bassist, Dale Hibbert. He claims that he was sacked because The Smiths were planning a 'gay band' image, and that Hibbert didn't fit in because he was married with kids. "It was Steven's idea. I mean the tape of 'I Want a Boy...' was going to be on the first demo, so obviously a song like that would go hand in hand with that kind of image. Steven said "We're going to be a gay band, but in a Tom Robinson, effeminate kind of way, but in the undelying macho type way." It was a very strongly manufactured image that was being prepared".

Thank you for all the great information! It's funny that Tom Robinson is mentioned, because it was actually from reading some articles on his web site last week that inspired my question. His first band happened to be made up of straight but very gay-positive, progressive guys. Nevertheless, they had frustrations about their music being so identified/categorised by Robinson's sexuality -- a position he understood completely. Anyway, Tom Robinson's site is really interesting, I'd recommend it: http://www.tomrobinson.com/

His radio show on BBC2 is also very good.
 
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