Does the Mexican-American Community Still Love Morrissey, Despite Everything? - Pitchfork

Does the Mexican-American Community Still Love Morrissey, Despite Everything? - Pitchfork
by Ludwig Hurtado

Excerpt:

This past weekend, thousands of Latinx folks gathered at Queen Mary Park in Long Beach, California, for the second annual Tropicália Music and Taco Festival. Likened to a Latinx Coachella by some attendees, Tropicália was put on this year by that California mega-fest’s own promoter, Goldenvoice, but did not abandon its original spirit. The lineup featured cumbia legends like Los Ángeles Azules and La Sonora Dinamita right alongside newly beloved bilingual favorites Chicano Batman, Kali Uchis, and Cardi B (who was replaced by SZA at the last minute, due to illness). Peppered in were indie-rock darlings like Mac DeMarco, Toro y Moi, and Mazzy Star.

And then there was Morrissey.
 
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T

Truth

Guest
All you crazy groupies that think Morrissey is your best friend are the problem. Just listen to the music. Morrissey is not your friend. What if he was? If someone you know gave an interview and said that all Hollywood actresses are prostitutes or that they think Britain First makes some good points would you go on twitter and denounce them? You'd probably just say "Oh you know how he is when he's drinking" and laugh it off. Or maybe you just wouldn't bring up the subject.

Morrissey is in the business of releasing music and doing live shows. He's actually really good at both of these things. Anyone reading this has probably felt some connection to some of his music at some point. If you're lucky you've seen him in concert on a decent night. Even now he is pretty good. The recent event for the radio station had its moments didn't it? What I find is that even if I'm not in love with the latest record when I see him or hear him perform the songs live I get it.
If you enjoy the music and the live shows and you have any sense at all you will buy (or watch/listen for free if you're a broke bitch) it and attend the shows. You might find that you actually feel that same connection you felt when you first heard him.
And I don't like some of the things he says. Some of the things he says sound offensive at first but then I think about it and see his point. Other things he says I do not like and will not like. Guess what! It doesn't matter. I still like his music. I would still go see him live.

To hate him and spend your life on here trying to convince people that he is a racist or in it for the money as one person does is insane. It is really the flipside of being the stalker fan that thinks Morrissey is your friend. Morrissey owes you nothing. GTFO if you don't like it.

And yes this comes after I personally spent way too much time talking about the comments he made defending Harvey Weinstein and Kevin Spacey. I still think those comments were very unfortunate and even hurtful to victims of rape and molestation. That is sinking pretty low when you defend a child molester and blame the victim. But he is a big Oscar Wilde fan so why act surprised?

The point is I don't have to like Morrissey, hang out with Morrissey, or agree with Morrissey. When one of Morrissey's songs comes on that I don't like I can skip to the next one. I can even stop listening altogether if I want to and I did for a while. But ultimately, as the young lady in the article said, it is about the music and not the person.
Liking Morrissey and emulating Morrissey, as we have seen with many many examples over the years, will not make you Morrissey. It doesn't matter what records you collect. If that is what you base your identity on you're just boring anyway. But if you can get something from the music that is really what matters.
It doesn't matter what Morrissey says about immigration. This is where the Mozbots get messed up in trying to pretend "we can't know for sure" what he said or what he meant. " Bengali In Platforms" is a xenophobic song that verges on racism. So skip that one. Skip them all if you want. But don't try to pretend that bashing Morrissey makes you special or makes any difference at all.

Uncleskinny is always posting some link that bashes Morrissey or writing some essay about what a terrible person Morrissey is. If he cared at all about the plight of immigrants there are actually organizations that need volunteers to really do something. It's all about his ego and his feeling hurt and betrayed because the band he bases/based some of his identity on turned out to disagree with him on some political issues. Get over it. Maybe a therapist could help.
 

evennow

Writers on the storm
England is a small country and its capital city now contains a white minority and virtually no working class people at all. This happened extremely fast.

Is this a good thing?

It's interesting that many of the people who claim it is a good thing (or say it doesn't matter because we're all one human race etc) are moneyed middle class liberals. The entry en masse of poor migrants is in fact financially beneficial to these people. It ensures that working class wages are kept low which is good for when they hire nannies and cleaners for example. Low wages keeps profits high in their companies or the companies they own shares in. Migrants also pose no competition in the middle class job market - which is a nepotistic/networked class prejudiced closed shop (just how they like it).

If for example the government suddenly, compulsorily, opened up the media/arts industry to working class people or migrants, then the liberals who have this sector to themselves would be in a hysterical uproar.

But this is unlikely to happen as they enjoy the ecomonical/financial status quo exactly as it is thank you very much i.e lots of migrants pouring in for cheap labour - not for their jobs or the stretched services, health, schools etc. that they can afford to pay for themselves. And the changing face of London neighbourhoods from white/mixed working class to largely third world immigrants? Who cares, the middle class have their own moneyed apartheid neighbourhoods where they can sit in their peaceful homes tweeting about inclusion and empathy - which I'm sure makes them feel very good but has no basis in reality

That is a big bite to swallow. America has always, since England landed and we then raided the land from the east coast to west, been born, built and maintained by immigrants.

You focus a lot on the middle class, but that is not a bad thing. The middle class here is something that many strive for and are happy to achieve. There is something commendable in trying to provide a better life for yourself and those of your children. I have no power to comment on your "small country" of which you speak.

You mentioned "apartheid neighborhoods" several times in your post. Here they are, as they have been in our past less than 300 years, neighborhoods of fellow immigrants...Polish, Italian, Irish, German, Indian, Israeli, and most recently Mexican human beings trying their best to make the best of what America has to offer.

Some end up taking advantage of the system, but so many others provide such a positive impact to our culture and the success of our economy that I find it hard to see things the way that you do about life where you live.

As much is said about America, we are the land of the free and the home of the brave, and everyone has an equal opportunity to achieve whatever level of success they are willing to work for to achieve. I believe this and I am proud to be an American. I hope you have the same pride in your country even if you disagree with its politics.
 

marred

Member
It could take quite some time asking every single Mexican-American how they feel about Morrissey or are they going to ask just a few of them to cover the opinions of all of them?
Let the survey commence!
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
'suppression of opposition' would meet most basic definitions of what a fascist is. under 'c***' all anyone needs is 'see you'.
There is no suppression of the "opposition." There is a response from those being put upon. You think free speech means no one else can have an opinion on your speech, or protest your beliefs. That is the basic freedom that you want silenced. It's the foundation of free protest. You want freedom from being boycotted. There is no such thing.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of that speech. If you walk into a crowd deciding to be divisive, and say whatever you want, expect blow back, and a vote that is not in your favor. You don't have the freedom from being disliked. You are not owed a platform by the public.

Again, that's a fundamental concept of democracy. The state can't sanction you, but the people can turn away from you. If you make yourself unpopular, you will be treated that way.

Right thinking people seem to believe they are owed agreement, or that hey are owed an audience that wants to listen to them. You are not owed any such thing. I repeat, you are not owed any such thing.

Again, if you make yourself divisive and unlikable, expect to be told to f*** off. It's my right, and everyone else's right. If you want unity, you speak about unity. You don't speak about separation. You don't demean. You don't threaten violence, and you don't homogenize your voting base.

Right-wing thinkers seem to champion the right for businesses, and institutions to discriminate freely, but they want to be free from the very same things outside of said business and institutions. It makes no sense, and is merely a pathetic attempt at displaying crocodile tears. They want the sympathies of the minority without actually having suffered their plight. They're not used to being forced to experience self-awareness. Minorities are born into that. They are forced to experience that self-awareness from the majority culture from the day they are born.

Right-wing identity politics has become the most divisive ideology currently functioning in the Western world, past and present. It has destroyed nations. Until it is moderated, then expect the mirror to be held up to your face.

You no longer have the same privileges of the past. People are much more mobile now. With each passing decade, people without a voice will gain that voice, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
There is no suppression of the "opposition." There is a response from those being put upon. You think free speech means no one else can have an opinion on your speech, or protest your beliefs. That is the basic freedom that you want silenced. It's the foundation of free protest. You want freedom from being boycotted. There is no such thing.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from the consequences of that speech. If you walk into a crowd deciding to be divisive, and say whatever you want, expect blow back, and a vote that is not in your favor. You don't have the freedom from being disliked. You are not owed a platform by the public.

Again, that's a fundamental concept of democracy. The state can't sanction you, but the people can turn away from you. If you make yourself unpopular, you will be treated that way.

Right thinking people seem to believe they are owed agreement, or that hey are owed an audience that wants to listen to them. You are not owed any such thing. I repeat, you are not owed any such thing.

Again, if you make yourself divisive and unlikable, expect to be told to f*** off. It's my right, and everyone else's right. If you want unity, you speak about unity. You don't speak about separation. You don't demean. You don't threaten violence, and you don't homogenize your voting base.

Right-wing thinkers seem to champion the right for businesses, and institutions to discriminate freely, but they want to be free from the very same things outside of said business and institutions. It makes no sense, and is merely a pathetic attempt at displaying crocodile tears. They want the sympathies of the minority without actually having suffered their plight. They're not used to being forced to experience self-awareness. Minorities are born into that. They are forced to experience that self-awareness from the majority culture from the day they are born.

Right-wing identity politics has become the most divisive ideology currently functioning in the Western world, past and present. It has destroyed nations. Until it is moderated, then expect the mirror to be held up to your face.

You no longer have the same privileges of the past. People are much more mobile now. With each passing decade, people without a voice will gain that voice, and there's nothing you can do to stop it.

I'm fine with free criticism of Moz on this site. Just as long as we have free criticism of Skinny and the haters too. No censorship. Period.

Oh, and by the way, you need to get out more.
 

evennow

Writers on the storm
It could take quite some time asking every single Mexican-American how they feel about Morrissey or are they going to ask just a few of them to cover the opinions of all of them?
Let the survey commence!

I was thinking the exact same thing, and the article title is a little disturbing "Does the Mexican-American Community Still Love Morrissey, Despite Everything?"

As if there is some singular community of Mexican-Americans spread out all over the US that hold meetings to decided their collective feelings about Morrissey, or anything/anyone for that matter.

This type of labeling is what was done to the Jews and other races throughout history as it makes it easier to consider a race of people "one thing or another" without regard for the individuals that make up this so called "group".

There is no such thing as one Mexican-American community, just as there is no one White or Black American community. To try and espouse otherwise is an ignorant if not dangerous endeavor.
 

reelfountain

Well-Known Member
That is a big bite to swallow. America has always, since England landed and we then raided the land from the east coast to west, been born, built and maintained by immigrants.

You focus a lot on the middle class, but that is not a bad thing. The middle class here is something that many strive for and are happy to achieve. There is something commendable in trying to provide a better life for yourself and those of your children. I have no power to comment on your "small country" of which you speak.

You mentioned "apartheid neighborhoods" several times in your post. Here they are, as they have been in our past less than 300 years, neighborhoods of fellow immigrants...Polish, Italian, Irish, German, Indian, Israeli, and most recently Mexican human beings trying their best to make the best of what America has to offer.

Some end up taking advantage of the system, but so many others provide such a positive impact to our culture and the success of our economy that I find it hard to see things the way that you do about life where you live.

As much is said about America, we are the land of the free and the home of the brave, and everyone has an equal opportunity to achieve whatever level of success they are willing to work for to achieve. I believe this and I am proud to be an American. I hope you have the same pride in your country even if you disagree with its politics.

Firstly I think working and middle class might have different translations in the US and England. A fireman or policeman wouldn't ever be thought of as middle class in England for example. When I say 'liberal middle class' I'm talking from a London perspective, so I'm actually referring to the types of liberal middle class people who live in London and work mainly in the media and arts (or at least would like to as they view themselves as very cultured). In gentrified areas there are many, many of these people, and their attitudes are very hypocritical to say the least - which is something that interests me as they basically form the voice of all media in England.

England has been (since the second world war) quite a fair and socialist(ish) country. A lot of poverty was eradicated when they created the safety net of council housing, welfare and the free National Health Service. Then Thatcher came along in the 80s and began to break all this down and adopt a more American policy of individualism i.e work hard and climb the ladder and if you don't make it to the top it's your own fault. This can work for many people if the right structures are in place. But what happened in the UK from '97 onwards with Tony Blair and New Labour was the breaking down of these structures, and since then the rich have got massively richer and everyone else has got poorer. Anything close to equal opportunity is now a far off dream. (Young people can't afford to move out, can't afford mortgages, services are stretched, wages are crap, people are having less kids because they don't want them brought up in worse conditions than when they were brought up etc.)

What Tony Blair also did was open the floodgates for third world immigration at a level previously unknown in the UK. This was a clever trick, as a surplus labour pool naturally means wages in working class jobs can be kept at a minimum - but immigrants will be submissive and won't complain (and they certainly won't almost topple the government as the working class unions almost did in Britain in the 70s). For example Blair advertised nursing jobs abroad knowing the recipients would be grateful and pleased working for a terrible wage, that he would now not have to increase. This goes for much more than nursing.

Companies love immigrants because of this. They berate the English for 'not accepting low paid work' as if there is something wrong with this. Why should anyone work for peanuts? Nobody should, it's exploitation. But an immigrant from the third world will be more than happy, and they know that.

Yes, America is a nation of immigrants. Most people in England would consider the US a very capitalist right-wing conservative country (under either Rep or Dem). But look at the downside of what a dog-eat-dog make-it-to-the-top-or-perish society creates. For example, how would I be treated in a US prison as a white person? I think we all know the answer to that. A lot of jealousy and rabid racial hatred bubbles beneath the surface.

Ultimately I think America and the UK are very different places. But I like countries being different. I enjoy different cultures. When in Italy I like to enjoy Italian culture, or when in France, French culture. But with Europe nowadays they want all these local cultures washed into one or destroyed completely, not with the natural evolution of time but enforced social engineering on a scale never before known. That's my bugbear - not hating people, or hating different cultures, but having a good bullshit detector for when elite forces are working behind the scenes pulling strings that are in nobody's interest but their own. This is what is happening in the UK and right across Europe.
 
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evennow

Writers on the storm
Firstly I think working and middle class might have different translations in the US and England. A fireman or policeman wouldn't ever be thought of as middle class in England for example. When I say 'liberal middle class' I'm talking from a London perspective, so I'm actually referring to the types of liberal middle class people who live in London and work mainly in the media and arts (or at least would like to as they view themselves as very cultured). In gentrified areas there are many, many of these people, and their attitudes are very hypocritical to say the least - which is something that interests me as they basically form the voice of all media in England.

England has been (since the second world war) quite a fair and socialist(ish) country. A lot of poverty was eradicated when they created the safety net of council housing, welfare and the free National Health Service. Then Thatcher came along in the 80s and begun to break all this down and adopt a more American policy of individualism i.e work hard and climb the ladder and if you don't make it to the top it's your own fault. This can work for many people if the right structures are in place. But what happened in the UK from '97 onwards was the breaking down of these structures, and since then the rich have got massively richer and everyone else has got poorer. Anything close to equal opportunity is now a far off dream. (Young people can't afford to move out, can't afford mortgages, services are stretched, wages are crap, people are having less kids because they don't want them brought up in worst conditions than when they were brought up etc.)

What Tony Blair also did was open the floodgates for third world immigration at a level previously unknown in the UK. This was a clever trick, as a surplus labour pool naturally means wages in working class jobs can be kept at a minimum - but immigrants will be submissive and won't complain (and they certainly won't almost topple the government as the working class unions almost did in Britain in the 70s). For example Blair advertised nursing jobs abroad knowing the recipients would be grateful and pleased working for a terrible wage, that he would now not have to increase. This goes for much more than nursing.

Companies love immigrants because of this. They berate the English for 'not accepting low paid work' as if there is something wrong with this. Why should anyone work for peanuts? Nobody should, it's exploitation. But an immigrant from the third world will be more than happy, and they know that.

Yes, America is a nation of immigrants. Most people in England would consider the US a very capitalist right-wing conservative country (under either Rep or Dem). But look at the downside of what a dog-eat-dog make-it-to-the-top-or-perish society creates. For example, how would I be treated in a US prison as a white person? I think we all know the answer to that. A lot of jealousy and rabid racial hatred bubbles beneath the surface.

Ultimately I think America and the UK are very different places. But I like countries being different. I enjoy different cultures. When in Italy I like to enjoy Italian culture, or when in France, French culture. But with Europe nowadays they want all these local cultures washed into one or destroyed completely, not with the natural evolution of time but enforced social engineering on a scale never before known. That's my bugbear - not hating people, or hating different cultures, but having a good bullshit detector for when elite forces are working behind the scenes pulling strings that are in nobody's interest but their own. This is what is happening in the UK and right across Europe.

Thank you for taking the time to respond in such a complete and detailed manner. I just am not sure if any one strand of "culture" as you wrote above can be sustained in a world that is combining in a way never before seen.

Technology like humanology ( I just made up a word there) has undergone such a great push forward in such a short period of time that it leaves me with my head spinning. The electronic exchange of money through services like Venmo, the ability to order a driver through Lift or Uber are all very new and extremely unnatural things for me.

I am much more comfortable waving down a cab and paying cash for the service, but that says more about me really. You are obviously far more studied in this realm than I am. I am an eternal optimist. I try to see the trees for the forest.

I can't listen to most music today because I tend to enjoy the music of my youth, but I work with so many young people now that have such a differing opinion on what constitutes the culture of today in America. I am a relic, although I use every fiber of my being to be open minded to what is going on now and all around me.

Like I wrote before I completely understand your dismay over what you see happening to the country in which you live and so obviously love. I respect that you voice your opinions and stand behind them. All that said, in the end there are two choices really...either shake your fists at the sky, or make an effort to see the good in what is inevitably happening around you. When we have been scrubbed from this Earth it will still continue to grow and change in ways that will still confound and frustrate many of those that remain.
 

DreamingofStew

Active Member
From the article:

"I suppose I expected more from Latinx people. (Why do we always expect more of marginalized people? Must the onus always be on the oppressed to be engaged constantly in acts of critical resistance?) I expected, as society too often does, for Latinx people to walk, talk, and even rock in perfect parallel with their politics."

Pretty cringey and patronising, I'd say. The writer just seems to objectify Latino people as "the oppressed". I suppose he should be given some credit for interrogating himself a little, but he still doesn't seem to see people - only a blob in his paint-by-numbers map of the political world.
 

marred

Member
I was thinking the exact same thing, and the article title is a little disturbing "Does the Mexican-American Community Still Love Morrissey, Despite Everything?"

As if there is some singular community of Mexican-Americans spread out all over the US that hold meetings to decided their collective feelings about Morrissey, or anything/anyone for that matter.

This type of labeling is what was done to the Jews and other races throughout history as it makes it easier to consider a race of people "one thing or another" without regard for the individuals that make up this so called "group".

There is no such thing as one Mexican-American community, just as there is no one White or Black American community. To try and espouse otherwise is an ignorant if not dangerous endeavor.
It's not the favoured tool of the radical left and skinny's playbook.
 

reelfountain

Well-Known Member
Thank you for taking the time to respond in such a complete and detailed manner. I just am not sure if any one strand of "culture" as you wrote above can be sustained in a world that is combining in a way never before seen.

Technology like humanology ( I just made up a word there) has undergone such a great push forward in such a short period of time that it leaves me with my head spinning. The electronic exchange of money through services like Venmo, the ability to order a driver through Lift or Uber are all very new and extremely unnatural things for me.

I am much more comfortable waving down a cab and paying cash for the service, but that says more about me really. You are obviously far more studied in this realm than I am. I am an eternal optimist. I try to see the trees for the forest.

I can't listen to most music today because I tend to enjoy the music of my youth, but I work with so many young people now that have such a differing opinion on what constitutes the culture of today in America. I am a relic, although I use every fiber of my being to be open minded to what is going on now and all around me.

Like I wrote before I completely understand your dismay over what you see happening to the country in which you live and so obviously love. I respect that you voice your opinions and stand behind them. All that said, in the end there are two choices really...either shake your fists at the sky, or make an effort to see the good in what is inevitably happening around you. When we have been scrubbed from this Earth it will still continue to grow and change in ways that will still confound and frustrate many of those that remain.
We have a lot of common ground and I can relate to everything you've said.

One thing though, in life I'm not as generally pessimistic as I may sound up on here. Many things about the modern day gladden me, but perhaps I don't feel the urge to air them in such a vociferous way. I don't spend all day yearning for the past - it's just that certain 'depressing' subjects (such as social politics, nationalism, changes, hypocritical stances etc.) perversely interest me (!). And I think it is more of a stimulating 'interest' rather than an overall bitterness.
 
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evennow

Writers on the storm
We have a lot of common ground and I can relate to everything you've said.

One thing though, in life I'm not as generally pessimistic as I may sound up on here. Many things about the modern day gladden me, but perhaps I don't feel the urge to air them in such a vociferous way.

Yes we do. You don't have to air things that gladden you in a "vociferous way", but it would be interesting and nice to read of the lighter side of reelfountain.
 

countthree

Well-Known Member
That's pretty much the opposite of what Reel is saying. That would be the equivalent of the people of the UK saying we're a country of immigrants and so on. Which is what the US is and certainly much of South America. Reel is reeling against the UK becoming that. He/she wants the UK to be native. Reel wants the invaders out, or at least not in. I know you want to find an allegience but there isn't one.

No, it's not the same at all. But you see everything with your own spectacles and so do I.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Hitler was a national socialist leftie and Il Duce and Franco were fascists. Hitler and Il Duce never got over their differences but tried to agree on some things.
 

Oh my

Enough! or Too much
Damn straight. That and there there always like minded, ignorant arseholes about who also think Farage is a liberal educator, Hitler was left wing and are racist who agree with him. This place is a magnet to 'em. They're welcome to him to be honest. Birds of a feather and all that.

Hitler was left wing... Just like Stalin.
Most people are too confused, like the people who believe that Obama was "left wing" (he is certainly NOT a left wing politician at all).

Of course, it is unfair to judge the whole of the left wing because of the dictators who also happened to be part of the very broad left.

Pitchfork's article is incredibly weird... One of the most racist articles I have read recently; absolutely describing the Mexicans in an absolutely racist way. Can the Mexican-Americans like Pitchfork despite this article????
 

DreamingofStew

Active Member


The author of the Pitchfork article is only slightly more reflective than the person on the right here.
 

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