Do you agree with the following statement?

Morrissey's whole career is based on negative comments and singing about he doesn't l

  • Yes, that's why I like him.

    Votes: 2 3.2%
  • Possibly he's partly responsible for projecting his own image in that way.

    Votes: 10 15.9%
  • Mmmm...neither agree nor disagree.

    Votes: 7 11.1%
  • No. C'mon it's an image media has created, he's more than that.

    Votes: 44 69.8%

  • Total voters
    63
  • Poll closed .

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Funny you should say so, I always thought his songs were far too full of self-loathing and (rather absurd) self-deprecation. In fact, if I was looking for negativity in his songs, the first thing that would come to my mind would be his lyrics about himself.
Do you really think so? I can't hear it. I know the lines to which you're referring, but balanced against those is the strongest, most unyielding self-love imaginable. Moreso in his solo career (especially beginning with "Quarry") than with The Smiths, maybe, but even in the early songs I have the impression there isn't a single human being on the planet Morrissey would rather be than himself-- even when, or especially when, he moans about how bad things are.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
it would be good to have some light and shade in Morrissey's career so as to avoid the idea he's been singing the same song for 20 years (something I sometimes find myself thinking).
Before "Quarry" I would have agreed, but with that album, and now with "Ringleader", I think he's added plenty of light and shade. He isn't singing the same song. Eskimo blood in his veins, maybe, but now he's got explosive kegs between his legs.

To your song list I would add Saint Etienne's marvelous "Nothing Can Stop Us", which may well be the absolute polar opposite of "Hand In Glove" despite having nearly the same literal message.
 

Danny

Senior Member
I'm well aware the vast majority of love songs aren't about it going right, but it would be good to have some light and shade in Morrissey's career so as to avoid the idea he's been singing the same song for 20 years (something I sometimes find myself thinking).

And here you have three songs, all full of contagious joy and pure love. Aurally different, but unified in emotion. No bullshit, no indie wank - just strong, passionate lovesongs. Songs brave enough to admit love without any ironic, intellectual or arty safety nets. Exactly my favourite type of song.

The Ramones - "Oh Oh I Love Her So"

Curtis Mayfield - "You Are, You Are"

David Bowie - "Absolute Beginners (Live)"


http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=E1C5F2502468CC69
Well why don't you go away and listen to them. You don't seem to do anything on this site except drone on about The Pet Shop Boys or make smartarsed comments about how you can't stand Morrissey anymore.

You are a very interesting case though. In the space of a year you've done what most Morrissey ex-fans usually take years to do. Gone from obsessive adoration, to disappointment he's not the person you imagined him to be, to outright hostility. At least you've not wasted any time.
 

nightandday

New Member
Do you really think so? I can't hear it. I know the lines to which you're referring, but balanced against those is the strongest, most unyielding self-love imaginable. Moreso in his solo career (especially beginning with "Quarry") than with The Smiths, maybe, but even in the early songs I have the impression there isn't a single human being on the planet Morrissey would rather be than himself-- even when, or especially when, he moans about how bad things are.
That might be true... the two are so mixed it's hard to tell one from another. He seems to hate and adore himself in equal measure - as if he feels that he is so much better than others... or maybe so much worse than anyone, so inadequate. It's typical of people who have been used to thinking of themselves as different, special, eversince they were very young. But you can't blame them, when people have always treated them as different - either in positive or in negative way. It makes you feel almost like you're not a human being - but either a divinity, or a monster. And Morrissey seems to have thought of himself as both.

Whether he would really like to be only with himself... I don't know. It's one of his many contradictions. He sings so much about loneliness, but at the same time he's choosing to be alone. He sings and talks about rejection, yet other people feel it's him who is rejecting everyone else. I can't be sure what what he trully wants deep inside - to be alone and completely free, or to be able to be with someone other than himself.

did you ever think about this running theme:

"I am human and I need to be loved, just like everybody else does"

"tomorrow, will it come, and if it comes, will I still be human?"

"I had a childish dream, until I had it kicked from me
I tried to pass myself off as a human being, but the truth soon exposed me..."
 
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dazzak

New Member
from obsessive adoration, to disappointment he's not the person you imagined him to be, to outright hostility. At least you've not wasted any time.
In fact, I find I go through that cycle every day. Perhaps that's why I'm here. And please don't be so hostile. It's not very becoming.
 

nightandday

New Member
Before "Quarry" I would have agreed, but with that album, and now with "Ringleader", I think he's added plenty of light and shade. He isn't singing the same song. Eskimo blood in his veins, maybe, but now he's got explosive kegs between his legs.
Am I the only one who thinks he always had them? :) He's always had light and shade. He's never sung the same song. Have we listened to the same songs?! There's plenty of light and shade and, if you will, explosive kegs, in the early Smiths lyrics, or late Smiths lyrics, or on Viva Hate... and so on...
 

Danny

Senior Member
In fact, I find I go through that cycle every day. Perhaps that's why I'm here. And please don't be so hostile. It's not very becoming.
Nah, you're out the other side, never to return. I recognise that carping attitude. And I'd advise you to look to yourself first.
 

Jon

Banned
Dazzak hit the nail on the head about Morrissey, and it's exactly the same reason why I listen less and less.

I get bored after years and years of hearing the same old story from Morrissey without any attempt at self improvement on his behalf..

hmmm, it seems pretty pointless in me listing all negative songs by him. The media has propagated a miserable image for morrissey. My point was the his negativity just eventually drags you down. (hence one of the reasons I post in the way I do on this website. The uneducated twitish reaction from the puppets that edit all this virtual banter always (A)bemuses me - anyway that's an aside

I never could understand why you would sing about why everyone is boring, or how you would like to kill somone, or advertise the fact that hate is a good thing. Or why you would sing about the negative aspects of other people in the context of a relationship with them, (well it would be half acceptable doing three or four 3 minute negative pop songs of that ilk, but not to make a career out of it going on more that 25 years repeating the same thing again and again without trying to improve yourself)In parallel to this thinking that you are a self righteous God - ie see his recent V festival interview with Moz where he says all new bands sound the same and look the same, and he said he is on a different level; hence thus could not communicate with "those bands"...., even though on occasions Morrissey does realise he is inefectual, his overiding theme resorts back to that of negativity, which just drags you down with him. I remember hearing Last night I dreamt that somebody loved me in 1987 after being a big fan for a few years, just thinking to myself " just shut the fuck up will you" "This story goes on...." (Perhaps to some people it does, the question should be why it does, a case for introspection perhaps? )..Don't blame others.... I was 19 then and I thought he was repeating himself... it was like, how many times can you say the same things over and over again. Saying that I have found some of his poetry to be incredibly uplifting, ie I know It's Over...It's so easy to laugh it's so easy to hate, it takes guts to be gentle and kind..... perhaps he had a relapse when he wrote this.

And to the thing that posted this thread, you can refer to my screen name, it is Jon. Do not fear me. My offer is still open to you.

I post on this board when I am bored.
 
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dazzak

New Member
Nah, you're out the other side, never to return. I recognise that carping attitude. And I'd advise you to look to yourself first.
Well, thanks for informing me of my opinion on Morrissey. I can rest easy now that the all-intuitive Danny has diagnosed me as an ex-Morrissey fan. Care to cure me of anything else while you're at it? Am I over New Order? Do I dislike Roxy Music's debut album more than I really think I do?

What worries me is why you seem to care. You his mum or something?
 

Danny

Senior Member
Well, thanks for informing me of my opinion on Morrissey. I can rest easy now that the all-intuitive Danny has diagnosed me as an ex-Morrissey fan. Care to cure me of anything else while you're at it? Am I over New Order? Do I dislike Roxy Music's debut album more than I really think I do?

What worries me is why you seem to care. You his mum or something?
I have no idea as you don't whinge on about how crap those artists are like you do with Morrissey.

I know you love Pet Shop Boys though as you can't stop talking about them.
 

nightandday

New Member
Dazzak hit the nail on the head about Morrissey, and it's exactly the same reason why I listen less and less.

I get pissed off after years and years of hearing the same old story, please do not tell me these feelings/emotions/sentiments are positive:


Viva Hate
Sorrow Will Come In The End
Everyday Is Like Sunday
The Queen Is Dead
The World Is full of crashing bores
Life Is A pigsty
Margaret On The Guillotine
Well, I will tell you. The Queen Is Dead and especially Margaret On the Guillotine are in fact very positive!!! :D

The World is Full of Crushing Bores is very true - and funny.
Viva Hate is hilarious!


I remember hearing Last night i dreampt that somebody loved me in 1987 after being a big fan for a few years, just thinking to myself " just shut the fuck up will you" "This story goes on...." I was 19 then and i thought he was repeating himself... it was like, how many times can you say the same thing.
Funny... I feel similar about you now.

Well, for some people the situation described in that song is the story that goes on and on and on. So... yes, I'll tell you in so many words this time: please shut the fuck up.

I post on this board when I am bored.
I'm not a big fan of Pet Shop Boys, but they said it well:

"We were never feeling bored
Cause we were never being boring"
 

Jon

Banned
Well, I will tell you. The Queen Is Dead and especially Margaret On the Guillotine are in fact very positive!!! :D

The World is Full of Crushing Bores is very true - and funny.
Viva Hate is hilarious!



Funny... I feel similar about you now.

Well, for some people the situation described in that song is the story that goes on and on and on. So... yes, I'll tell you in so many words this time: please shut the fuck up.


I'm not a big fan of Pet Shop Boys, but they said it well:

"We were never feeling bored
Cause we were never being boring"
I will shut the fuck up. I am so sorry.

ps

Thanks for the 1980's Pet Shop Boys quote btw, it put into perspective your comments. :)
 
Dazzak hit the nail on the head about Morrissey, and it's exactly the same reason why I listen less and less.

I get bored after years and years of hearing the same old story from Morrissey without any attempt at self improvement on his behalf..

hmmm, it seems pretty pointless in me listing all negative songs by him. The media has propagated a miserable image for morrissey. My point was the his negativity just eventually drags you down. (hence one of the reasons I post in the way I do on this website. The uneducated twitish reaction from the puppets that edit all this virtual banter always (A)bemuses me - anyway that's an aside

I never could understand why you would sing about why everyone is boring, or how you would like to kill somone, or advertise the fact that hate is a good thing. Or why you would sing about the negative aspects of other people in the context of a relationship with them, (well it would be half acceptable doing three or four 3 minute negative pop songs of that ilk, but not to make a career out of it going on more that 25 years repeating the same thing again and again without trying to improve yourself)In parallel to this thinking that you are a self righteous God - ie see his recent V festival interview with Moz where he says all new bands sound the same and look the same, and he said he is on a different level; hence thus could not communicate with "those bands"...., even though on occasions Morrissey does realise he is inefectual, his overiding theme resorts back to that of negativity, which just drags you down with him. I remember hearing Last night I dreamt that somebody loved me in 1987 after being a big fan for a few years, just thinking to myself " just shut the fuck up will you" "This story goes on...." (Perhaps to some people it does, the question should be why it does, a case for introspection perhaps? )..Don't blame others.... I was 19 then and I thought he was repeating himself... it was like, how many times can you say the same things over and over again. Saying that I have found some of his poetry to be incredibly uplifting, ie I know It's Over...It's so easy to laugh it's so easy to hate, it takes guts to be gentle and kind..... perhaps he had a relapse when he wrote this.

And to the thing that posted this thread, you can refer to my screen name, it is Jon. Do not fear me. My offer is still open to you.

I post on this board when I am bored.

Or maybe you are just unable and unsensible to see and feel wehe whole Moz/Smiths complexity. It includes a LOT of beauty and humour .And if these are not the brightest things on this f..world....just go and listen to happy creepy love songs for simpleminded ordinary boys.Just happy to go nowhere and know nothing. Yea, like the whole industry of pop music doesnt play the same song all the time. Please, get the fuck out of here.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
I think we all believe that Morrissey's lyrics have a lot of beauty, texture, diversity of themes, and so on. Anyone who thinks Morrissey is truly monolithic probably wouldn't like him all that much, and certainly wouldn't come here to post messages unless they were trolls (and Lord knows we've had a few of those).

The issue of whether or not he's singing the same old song all the time is not one to dismiss out of hand, though. Dazzak and Danny are absolutely right in their complaints in one crucial respect: for all the wit, humor, pathos, and anger in Morrissey's twenty-three year career, for most of it there was a huge hole in his view of life, a hole in the shape of a fulfilling personal relationship. True, he found countless ways to describe depression, anxiety, illness, and misery. So brilliant is Morrissey that some of the saddest songs are the funniest, and some of the funniest songs the saddest. Many of the most superficially "negative" songs are extremely joyful and affirmative (in many cases thanks to big help from Johnny). The depth and richness of his writing is unmatched in pop music of the last few decades. But never did he really acknowledge any sort of successful relationship, either in his music or in his interviews, until recently.

Morrissey once said something to the effect that he was tired of people pretending that life is either totally sad or totally happy. In reality, it's a mixture. "Life wasn't meant to be a dance record", yes, but neither is it a ceaseless dirge. Morrissey's eariler music reflected that sentiment but at the same time there was a notable absence of simple happiness with other people. He always sang about the lack of a successful relationship, usually singing from the standpoint of one who is either in a fatally flawed relationship ("What Difference Does It Make?", "Reel Around The Fountain"), chasing someone ("Half A Person", "Handsome Devil"), or doomed in some mysterious way ("There Is A Light That Never Goes Out", "Hand In Glove"). There's always a lack of some kind, something or other preventing happiness.

For me, whatever was blocking Morrissey's happiness was redeemed, firstly, by the truth and artistry of his writing, and, secondly, by the idea that Morrissey had the potential to be happy if only the world were different than it was. The second point was crucial to the whole idea of The Smiths. Morrissey's happiness was not an inward-looking pity party, it was a standing indictment of everyone else. Charges of mopery bewilder me-- the man's wrath is not that of a navel gazer. "How Soon Is Now?", for instance, is one of the great expressions of The Smiths' vitality because of an attacking energy that doesn't come from Morrissey's brooding melancholy but rather from the anger with which he sings, "I am human and I need to be loved" (punctuated by Marr's excoriating guitar). Morrissey undoubtedly has more self-loathing than most people, sure, but he also challenges the accepted way most of us live our lives. As much as Morrissey bemoans how difficult life is, he also points to how wonderful life could be.

His recent solo work, beginning with "Quarry" and especially with "Ringleader", redeems all those early songs because that "could be" has become an "is". (Open to qualification, perhaps-- a Clintonian "is"-- but an "is" nonetheless.) I wouldn't for a moment suggest that Morrissey is riotously happy now, or even that he ever could be happy in the way that many people consider "normal". However, for Morrissey to sing about being in love or having sex has now filled the aforementioned hole-- wink wink-- that had existed since the early days of The Smiths. What separated Morrissey from all the doom merchants of the 80s (you know who you are, mascara monsters) is that the possibility of his happiness existed. He sang, "The story is old, I know, BUT IT GOES ON", and to like that song you have to believe that one day the story can end happily (whether it actually does or not). Again, I'm not saying the story has ended happily. It may end just as abjectly and horribly as Morrissey has at times predicted. But merely to know that Morrissey has spent a number of nights in some sort of pleasant relationship, no matter how odd it may look to outsiders, validates all his lamentations about empty beds in "I Know It's Over" and "Last Night I Dreamt That Somebody Loved Me".

To deny that Morrissey's lyrics were at one time rather one-sided is to miss the glory of "Ringleader" and the personal transformation he's had in the last few years. There was a point years ago where you could reasonably complain that he was stuck in an emotional rut, that he was the stunted, eternal teenager critics often said he was. No longer. Anyone who thinks Morrissey is not substantially different than his younger self may be complaining about another issue entirely. Namely, if his musical accompaniment was as sparkling and alive as it had been in earlier stages of his Smiths and solo career, a lot of the personal evolution he's written about on "Ringleader" would sound different. If "You Have Killed Me", fantastic as it is-- and it is-- had been backed by music as punchy and irresistable as "This Charming Man" or even "Interesting Drug", believe me, it would sound like the very Earth had been knocked clean off its axis. As it is, Morrissey is now fulfilling the promise and potential of his earlier songs, and for that his last two albums, "the comeback" albums, are totally justified.
 

dazzak

New Member
I'm not a big fan of Pet Shop Boys, but they said it well:

"We were never feeling bored
Cause we were never being boring"
Well, I think that sentiment is more of a romantic philosophical and sociological view of a group of gay friends used as a microcosm for the gay community in the late 70s and early 80s and not a blanket statement.

This thread so well displays the emotional and intellectual retardation of a lot of Morrissey fans. Congratulations.
 
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I'm well aware the vast majority of love songs aren't about it going right, but it would be good to have some light and shade in Morrissey's career so as to avoid the idea he's been singing the same song for 20 years (something I sometimes find myself thinking).

And here you have three songs, all full of contagious joy and pure love. Aurally different, but unified in emotion. No bullshit, no indie wank - just strong, passionate lovesongs. Songs brave enough to admit love without any ironic, intellectual or arty safety nets. Exactly my favourite type of song.

The Ramones - "Oh Oh I Love Her So"

Curtis Mayfield - "You Are, You Are"

David Bowie - "Absolute Beginners (Live)"


http://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=download&ufid=E1C5F2502468CC69

Hand in glove sounds like a love song to me, just about the best love song I've ever heard.
 
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