Did Alain Whyte play on Ringleader of the Tormentors?

A

Anonymous

Guest
And listening to Ringleader again after quite a few years -- it's clearly better than what he's doing now.
You're having a giraffe, mate. Ringleader has 3 or 4 decent songs (Pigsty, Hero, Future, Killed me) but the rest of it is rambling rubbish or dreary chug-rock filler. Father must be killed, Streets I ran, I am born, Far off places, Work of art - all effing dreadful.
The music, at least, on the current album is miles better.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I. Will See You in Far-Off Places" - a gormless song of emptiness and bluster
2. "Dear God Please Help Me" - truly awful lyrics, a surprisingly weak melody (give the song's acclaim)
3. "You Have Killed Me" - a reasonable single but nowhere near classic Morrissey.
4. "The Youngest Was the Most Loved" - music's OK, lyrics are duff
5. "In the Future When All's Well" - yes, a good un.
6. "The Father Who Must Be Killed" - absolutely bloody awful
7. "Life Is a Pigsty" - a great song.
8. "I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now" - lovely melody, cliched lyrics
9. "On the Streets I Ran" - more musical and lyrical awfulness
10. "To Me You Are a Work of Art" - floaty, empty, feeble
11. "I Just Want to See the Boy Happy" - one of the stronger songs
12. "At Last I Am Born" - just forgettable.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
I. Will See You in Far-Off Places" - a gormless song of emptiness and bluster
2. "Dear God Please Help Me" - truly awful lyrics, a surprisingly weak melody (give the song's acclaim)
3. "You Have Killed Me" - a reasonable single but nowhere near classic Morrissey.
4. "The Youngest Was the Most Loved" - music's OK, lyrics are duff
5. "In the Future When All's Well" - yes, a good un.
6. "The Father Who Must Be Killed" - absolutely bloody awful
7. "Life Is a Pigsty" - a great song.
8. "I'll Never Be Anybody's Hero Now" - lovely melody, cliched lyrics
9. "On the Streets I Ran" - more musical and lyrical awfulness
10. "To Me You Are a Work of Art" - floaty, empty, feeble
11. "I Just Want to See the Boy Happy" - one of the stronger songs
12. "At Last I Am Born" - just forgettable.
Agree 100%, this is absolutely spot-on (although I never got the fuss over "Pigsty", it's another "Dear God" and too overblown for me).
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
Agree 100%, this is absolutely spot-on (although I never got the fuss over "Pigsty", it's another "Dear God" and too overblown for me).
the older i get the more i understand the weird shit my grandma says like she say “some people have never cleaned a bathroom in their life and it shows when they speak” and honestly? u that.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
the older i get the more i understand the weird shit my grandma says like she say “some people have never cleaned a bathroom in their life and it shows when they speak” and honestly? u that.
I'll have to start cleaning bathrooms at some speed then, because I've got no clue at all what you're trying to say here. I've read it three times and it still makes no sense.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
I have a strong feeling Alain Whyte is all over "I'll Never be Anybody's Hero Now", at the very least; there some very distinctive Alain Whyte-style doodling going on after the "...and I haven't even died" line and going into the "And my love/is under the ground" bit.
It's pretty simple. Alain recorded much of the guitar parts for the Alain songs, whereas Jesse played much of the parts for his own songs. Boz is sandwiched in here and there but it's really Alain and Jesse doing much of the guitar work.

I think the live performances of these songs gave us a false impression. Since we see Jesse play all of the main riffs on stage, we wrongly assume he has played the same exact parts on the record. On the contrary, Alain was involved in the main parts of Ringleader a lot more than we imagined.
 

Stanley the 2nd

Active Member
Alain was present as the picture below shows. Personally I think the rot set in with ROTT (no pun intended). I thought it might be a career defining album after Quarry and with Visconti at the helm, but it was 80% dross. Dear God and Pigsty are amazing songs and the album would have been great if it had been in that vain.

Anyhow, not sure how 3 guitarists would work in the studio or touring. Alain is by far the biggest talent in the trio. Maybe he felt undervalued and decided to walk. I think Morrissey must regret it now. Once upon a time it was a band, now it seems like a revolving door of session players.

 

Peppermint

Well-Known Member
A little less than two years later, Gary would be aiming his gesture slightly more to his 10 o'clock...
Not sure I ever heard the story behind that. Is it known what happened? I do know about 'Die wanker' (!) but wasn't that an earlier falling out?
 

Jamie

Bluff, Ardour & Assoc.
Not sure I ever heard the story behind that. Is it known what happened? I do know about 'Die wanker' (!) but wasn't that an earlier falling out?
Gary started a family in the wake of the ROTT sessions/tour. With a new mouth to feed, he purportedly asked for a pay increase. M responded by not asking him back.

It's a shame, as Gary's playing on ROTT is one of the genuine highlights of the album.
 

Peppermint

Well-Known Member
Gary started a family in the wake of the ROTT sessions/tour. With a new mouth to feed, he purportedly asked for a pay increase. M responded by not asking him back.

It's a shame, as Gary's playing on ROTT is one of the genuine highlights of the album.
Thanks for that info, Jamie. Gary had great style and swagger, both as a person and a musician. I think it's that kind of personality the band is sorely missing at the moment (not to mention talent). Morrissey does seem to have a deep-seated phobia about paying people, doesn't he?
 

Flibberty

Well-Known Member
Thanks for that info, Jamie. Gary had great style and swagger, both as a person and a musician. I think it's that kind of personality the band is sorely missing at the moment (not to mention talent). Morrissey does seem to have a deep-seated phobia about paying people, doesn't he?
I don't think talent really applies in Gary's case so much though does it? He was chosen purely based on his looks after all and I don't think ever wrote any of the music singlehanded.
 

MozIsGod

Active Member
It's a shame, as Gary's playing on ROTT is one of the genuine highlights of the album.
Jonny Bridgewood remains my favorite (solo) bassist but I won't hesitate to admit that Gary improved greatly during his second stint in the band. He also had some memorable bass lines on Quarry as well (Let Me Kiss You, etc). Not to mention, having Gaz back in the lineup must have also improved Alain's spirits too.

Morrissey does seem to have a deep-seated phobia about paying people, doesn't he?
Was this the reason Mikey V. Farrell left the band too?
 

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Alain was not having “mental health issues.” Alain was addicted to pills because of a back injury.

Alain is not with the band more because of Boz than Jesse. And yes, Alain was fired in the studio parking lot during the Years of Refusal sessions.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
Alain was not having “mental health issues.” Alain was addicted to pills because of a back injury.

Alain is not with the band more because of Boz than Jesse. And yes, Alain was fired in the studio parking lot during the Years of Refusal sessions.
But the tensions with Boz had existed for years - did something happen to make them suddenly come to a head, or was he just fired for the painkiller addiction?
 

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But the tensions with Boz had existed for years - did something happen to make them suddenly come to a head, or was he just fired for the painkiller addiction?
Tensions between Boz and Alain always essentially came down to money. Alain was retired from touring once Jesse came along. The final straw between Boz and Alain was having no writing credits on Ringleader.
 
A

Anonymous

Guest
The final straw between Boz and Alain was having no writing credits on Ringleader.
I fail to see how that's Alain's fault. I always presumed both Boz and Alain submitted tracks for Morrissey to consider, and Moz would decide which ones to use.
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
Tensions between Boz and Alain always essentially came down to money. Alain was retired from touring once Jesse came along. The final straw between Boz and Alain was having no writing credits on Ringleader.
Which would have been Morrissey's decision anyway. Sounds like his "competitive" approach with the songwriters often causes problems. Alain was great.
 
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