Dennis Herring (producer) / Twitter - Extraordinary story about the Smiths' songwriting and recording

This is something I've never heard before. The story is told on Twitter by Dennis Herring, who produced Modest Mouse.

 

[Anonymous]

if you want to say something like "Lyrics & Vocals by Morrissey, Music by Marr," then maybe.

That wouldn't be an accurate credit, as 'vocals' simply suggests 'singing' whereas was creating the vocal melody - and it's the vocal melody that is a song's 'tune'; also, generally speaking, Rourke created his own basslines, as far as we know, and as they were often a definitive part of the arrangement, he deserves a co-credit for the music; and then of course John Porter - even Marr acknowledges that Porter had a creative hand in the composition of the backing music he produced, particularly 'How Soon Is Now'.

 

[TheSmiths_1985]

What a lot of pish.
Someone said something to someone who was, once upon a time, linked to the band.

 

[Mike Rourke]

Morrissey was the icing on the musical cake in The Smiths, but the quality of that musical cake was pretty much down to Marr. Just listen to the parts of the Smiths songs where Morrissey isn't singing - the intros, the outros, the bits between choruses and verses, the amazing jangly riffs e.g. This Charming Man, the beautiful flute and violin parts in There is a Light, the sublime guitar lines in Some Girls Are Bigger, the gorgeous melodic strum of Cemetery Gates. The songs were an absolute musical feast. Morrissey made a vital contribution to the quality of the songs but it was through his singing and words, rather than any compositional skills. Listen to the latest Marr album - there is some Smiths-quality music in a few of the songs but it's the monotonous singing and the vague, generic lyrics (hinted at even through the song titles e.g. 'Hi Hello' - yuk!) that prevent the songs being anywhere near as enjoyable.

 

[Anonymous]

Morrissey was the icing on the musical cake in The Smiths, but the quality of that musical cake was pretty much down to Marr. Just listen to the parts of the Smiths songs where Morrissey isn't singing - the intros, the outros, the bits between choruses and verses, the amazing jangly riffs e.g. This Charming Man, the beautiful flute and violin parts in There is a Light, the sublime guitar lines in Some Girls Are Bigger, the gorgeous melodic strum of Cemetery Gates. The songs were an absolute musical feast. Morrissey made a vital contribution to the quality of the songs but it was through his singing and words, rather than any compositional skills. Listen to the latest Marr album - there is some Smiths-quality music in a few of the songs but it's the monotonous singing and the vague, generic lyrics (hinted at even through the song titles e.g. 'Hi Hello' - yuk!) that prevent the songs being anywhere near as enjoyable.

Although I agree with you on your other points, Hi Hello is a gorgeous, personal song that stands on its own.

 

[klaus]

is this the interview?

 

[SuedeMoz]

But it is viewed as such. That's why songs can be sung a cappella. It's why cover versions generally only have the lyrics and vocal melody in common with the original rendition of the song - because the backing music isn't actually the song. And it's why the same backing music can produce completely different songs, when different vocal melodies/lyrics are overlaid.

A song can be sung acapella because there was an "original rendition" as you put it in the first place. Do we ever know of a case where Morrissey first created a vocal melody and sang it Accapella and then Marr ran off to create "backing music" for Morrissey's new song? Did Morrissey ever hum a fully formed song structure and then Marr and the band tried to recreate it? No, the process always started with Marr, even if was more of an initial basic sketch that evolved because of what Morrissey did - sure, that's collaborative songwriting.

I'm not trying to put Marr above Morrissey either - I think they were the perfect yin and yang of exactly what was needed to make The Smiths as brilliant as they were. It seems like the only time points this need to be made are because some are intent on trying to diminish and downplay Johnny's importance. Interesting, I've never read anywhere where Morrissey does this or claims he could have done The Smiths without Johnny.

 

[The Wild Turkey]

Johnny plays his guitar on almost every
part of the songs.
Moz only sings at certain parts.
Who's the real prima donna?

 

[Anonymous]

A song can be sung acapella because there was an "original rendition" as you put it in the first place. Do we ever know of a case where Morrissey first created a vocal melody and sang it Accapella and then Marr ran off to create "backing music" for Morrissey's new song? Did Morrissey ever hum a fully formed song structure and then Marr and the band tried to recreate it? No, the process always started with Marr, even if was more of an initial basic sketch that evolved because of what Morrissey did - sure, that's collaborative songwriting.

I'm not trying to put Marr above Morrissey either - I think they were the perfect yin and yang of exactly what was needed to make The Smiths as brilliant as they were. It seems like the only time points like the above need to be made is because some are intent on trying to diminish and downplay Johnny's importance. Interesting, I've never read anywhere where Morrissey does this or claims he could have done The Smiths without Johnny.

I agree that it was a collaborative process, and I agree that Marr/Rourke's music always preceded and inspired Morrissey's vocal melody/lyrics, but the fact remains nevertheless imo that the vocal melody/lyric is the song - the music gave birth to the songs. Marr/Rourke should be credited for what they created - the music; Morrissey for what he created - the songs.

 

[Anonymous]

Ultimately it doesn't matter how those songs were created, and what process was used to get the finished results down on tape. The fact is that 99.9% of those songs are classics, so it worked.

 

[Anonymous]

Tried scrolling thru his Twitter to look for the thread but gave up after all his dumb ass tweets and retweets.
Actual liberal retard lol

 

[Tranny Rex]

What absolute bollocks. f*** me is this what we are reduced to?

Is the guy who said this American?

Its remarkable how quick Americans seem to be to shit on anyone to make a name .

Look at the people, in music. who have slagged Morrissey, its nearly always Americans .
When they try and get brit acts like Noel, Brett, Damon, Bobby . they all back M and refuse to talk smack, they dont dish the dirt

I think its because they are TRUE fans with a TRUE connection and love his music and respect the him . They also have depth

In fact the irony is one of the only Brits who frew M under the bus, once it became ultra fashionable , once M had lost some power , once it became clear M didnt want any thing to do with him and there was chance of the limelight
That was Martin , I left my GF and two year old child to be with a brit pop groupie comedian and con my ex gene band mates out of money , Rossiter, but hes always be a cretin .

 

[marred]

This is something I've never heard before. The story is told on Twitter by Dennis Herring, who produced Modest Mouse.

View attachment 73431View attachment 73432View attachment 73433View attachment 73434

For crock of shit read above^^^

 

[Anonymous]

"All the glory of the Smiths except lyric n melody".

I have made the point many times on this site, and will continue to do so, that Morrissey created the songs of The Smiths, whilst Marr, Rourke and sometimes Porter or Street created the backing music and should have been credited as such - 'Songs by Morrissey, music by Marr/Rourke(/Porter)'.

'Panic', for example, wasn't 'Panic' until Morrissey put down his vocal.

This chum of Marr's, despite his efforts to run down Morrissey, confirms in detail how that process worked.

I'm not sure Marr will really be thanking him for that.

You've forgotten about the melodies. Who wrote the melodies? Don't say Morrissey, ffs.

 

[marred]

It seems I'm part of an exceedingly rare group of fans, but for me, the glory of the Smiths is the "lyric n melody".

Not that rare.

 

[butley]

You've forgotten about the melodies. Who wrote the melodies? Don't say Morrissey, ffs.

It’s the vocal melodies, created by Morrissey, that elevate the songs to genius level especially with those lyrics.

So Johnny Marr tricked Morrissey about 70 times by editing his musical parts back in? Wow. And Morrissey never cottoned on. Wow.

 

[Trans]

That wouldn't be an accurate credit, as 'vocals' simply suggests 'singing' whereas was creating the vocal melody - and it's the vocal melody that is a song's 'tune'; also, generally speaking, Rourke created his own basslines, as far as we know, and as they were often a definitive part of the arrangement, he deserves a co-credit for the music; and then of course John Porter - even Marr acknowledges that Porter had a creative hand in the composition of the backing music he produced, particularly 'How Soon Is Now'.

Yeah and a person can also have a hand in the arraignments of the songs music that can alter and significantly improve the songs popularity

 

[joe frady]

This whiffs of a couple of old musos bitching & whining about how those goddam singers/lyricists get all the attention, and nobody realises the existential agony that us plectrum fiddlers go through in the studio.

Perhaps it's true. But it makes almost no sense.
As if SPM was some half-wit deluded on-the-spectrum prima donna who, ignoring the entirety of recorded popular music history, needed every second of The Smiths output to be plastered with his lyrics & vocals..?

And never trust a grown man with a JLG icon. Guaranteed prick...

.

 

[Amy]

This story contradicts everything Johnny Marr has ever (publicly) said about the way The Smiths worked and I find it really, really hard to believe he thought Morrissey was "insufferable" back in 1983. It's third-hand, revisionist shit-stirring to suggest that M was hated by his own band - it's also manifestly untrue.

At the Oxford Union speaking event, Johnny said that Morrissey would sing in 'unusual' places; sometimes resulting in very long intros and instrumental breaks, and then - due to that - Johnny would go back and 'fill in' the structure because there were gaps and breaks that he hadn't expected. In the same interview, he said Morrissey was his best mate and that he thought everything M did at that time was great. He also defends Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others from the tired old "Morrissey ruined your lovely tune" schtick and made it clear what Moz brought to the table. Nothing at all about having to "hide" various parts of songs.

The idea that Morrissey was absent from the demo sessions because everybody hated him is just too stupid for words, as is the idea that they edited instrumental sections into 70+ songs and he never even noticed. I hope JM sees this on Twitter and calls out the clown on his bullshit - how convenient that Herring hasn't mentioned/tagged JM's account.

 

[Anonymous]

Cool story, Tom comes across as a complete tool with his commentary though.

"All the glory of the Smiths except lyric n melody".

I have made the point many times on this site, and will continue to do so, that Morrissey created the songs of The Smiths, whilst Marr, Rourke and sometimes Porter or Street created the backing music and should have been credited as such - 'Songs by Morrissey, music by Marr/Rourke(/Porter)'.

'Panic', for example, wasn't 'Panic' until Morrissey put down his vocal.

This chum of Marr's, despite his efforts to run down Morrissey, confirms in detail how that process worked.

I'm not sure Marr will really be thanking him for that.

Yeah we have this going both ways. Panic is a T rex song with Morrissey's lyrics and melody that is great, while Bryan Ferry's "The Right Stuff" is a Smiths instrumental made completely unremarkable by some other singer. And then there is the matter of Morrissey and Marr's solo output...

Johnny is a great guitarist but would be nothing without Morrissey

 

[gordyboy9]

bit too dominic cummings for me,the old addage theres two sides to every story is balls,theres three sides to every story,theres my side,theres your side and then there is the truth.