Dear God, please leave me alone... prayer in school?

nugz

SUPAHSTAR!
It sounds like what would happen if to save money the movie studios combined the sequels to Girl 6 and Office Space and made them into one film. It would be a good star vehicle for Nugz.

I've never seen Girl 6, but I love Office Space, so I'll take this as a compliment. :)
 

SNS22

Not Dead Yet
For Conceiving the title...I expect the appropriate royalties...check back tomorrow for the script
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Has anyone seen this article on immigration yet? Thoughts?

I realize it is not the same subject as illegal immigration but it's interesting nonetheless.

this was awesome.

Worm, your posts are always so sexy.

nugz, the only thing that gives me more pleasure than having my posts called "sexy" is a good dose of insolent sarcasm, so-- however I am to read your post-- many thanks!
 

Busy Clippers

New Member
Has anyone seen this article on immigration yet? Thoughts?

I realize it is not the same subject as illegal immigration but it's interesting nonetheless.

Immigrants are great for most economies, especially when they're willing to work. The group mentioned in this article - Poles and other eastern Europeans - have changed the service economy in the area of London where my family lives. Everyone has begun expecting fast, reasonably priced, pleasant service. It will ruin everything!:p

But then, my views on immigration are not mainstream. Growing up in Miami where people literally wash up on the shore gives you a different perspective. Most of those people just want to come here and work, so why not let them do it?
 

SNS22

Not Dead Yet
Should Illegal Immigrants be allowed to have a moment of silence before converging in front of our Home Depots?
 

Amy

from the Ice Age to the dole age
"Migrants are more skilled and often more reliable and hardworking than British workers"

They needed a study for that?

I'm wounded Dave, wounded :p
 

SNS22

Not Dead Yet
I'm wounded Dave, wounded :p

It was my understanding that Britain began closing its factories before we did here in the states, hence there are probably more educated people and "services Oriented Jobs" (ie:people paid to listen to other people complain) in Britain, and less people doing hands-on work...of course we all know where the TELEPHONE Customer Service Jobs are going.....
 

Buzzetta

WOOOOOOOO!!!!!
What people do not realize is that with immigration "what goes around comes around." You may liken it to child abuse. There are studies (no I am not going to footnote everything I say) where people claim that children who are abused grow up to be abusers themselves. Lets apply that idea to immigration.

During the late 1800's and early 1900's you have a series of events where the Irish and Italians coming into NY faced discrimination and hardships at the hands of those who had come to the country before hand. I find it fascinating that where I am in Brooklyn there is a consensus among of Irish and Italians that are one or two generations removed from their migrating relatives of discrimination towards hispanics. They cite the same arguments today of why asian and hispanic immigrants should stay out of the country. It is almost as if they forget that their grandparents and greatgrandparents endured what they themselves are throwing at the immigrants of today.

With that said. I support ANYONE who wants to legally come to this country. Notice I said the world legally. You see in my opinion anyone who wants to come here for whatever reason even if under the classification of transitory immigration should be allowed to live here so long as they go through the proper documented channels. I have no right to complain who comes to the country unless my name is "Sitting River" or "Running Buffalo" or something in that vein.

The major problem is with illegal immigrants. This is where the liberals muddy the waters as it were. Here on long island there are firms and focus groups concerned with making sure that the government does not target these people with their removal. Newsday recently reported that a law involving tresspassing and the showing of proper identification may be unconstitutional (as it is being enforced in Suffolk County) because it may unfairly target "undocumented persons."

Illegal immigration is NOT a hispanic issue. Illegal immigration is an illegal immigration issue upon itself. My contention is that if you are not in this country legally. If you do not play by the rules then our rules should not assist you in remaining here. Geraldo Rivera was recently on Bill O'Reilly. Now I know what most of you say about O'Reilly but that this for what it is. Rivera criticized O'Reilly in saying that a drunk driving case is simply that but O'Reilly makes a great point. If the illegal immigrant came to the country and committed a crime he should have been deported and NOT released. Why he was released is insane. River tries to make it a hispanic issue and I believe he is wrong with this. Its NOT a hispanic issue... its an illegal immigration issue. If you commit a crime and are caught you should be deported. The government caught you... back across the border you go.

The argument loses site of it's point from both sides but I am curious as to what you think.

 
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nugz

SUPAHSTAR!
Has anyone seen this article on immigration yet? Thoughts?

I realize it is not the same subject as illegal immigration but it's interesting nonetheless.



nugz, the only thing that gives me more pleasure than having my posts called "sexy" is a good dose of insolent sarcasm, so-- however I am to read your post-- many thanks!

hahaha, not sarcastic at all. just my special little way of saying that whether or not I agree with all of your posts (which I usually do by the way) you always voice your opinion so well and intellectually, and usually with a hint or sarcasm or humor. so yes, SEXY seemed like the appropriate word. haha ;)
 
D

Dave

Guest
Buzzetta, you are forcing me to choose between Bill O'Reilly and Geraldo Revera? I think they should both be deported. On the Titanic.

Certain crimes, and drunk driving is one of them, would mean deportation.

There are unfortunately overtones of racism in the idea of deportation, and you don't help your case by using Fox News and talking about Liberals. Some people probably are more worthy to be here, that got here illegally, than others that got here legally. But if someone is discovered to be here illegally, and the reason it's discovered is because they were committing a crime, I don't see that there is much debate about what to do with them.

I think the problem and the reason these Liberals may have gotten involved is because of profiling. If the police suddenly crack down on undocumented people, well, you can't tell if they are undocumented until you ask to see their documents, right? And since the majority of these people are going to be from one or another ethnic groups, and staying in corresponding ethnic section of town, that means that a lot of good citizens that are minding their own business walking down the streets are going to be stopped, for any reason.
 

Buzzetta

WOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Buzzetta, you are forcing me to choose between Bill O'Reilly and Geraldo Revera? I think they should both be deported. On the Titanic.

Certain crimes, and drunk driving is one of them, would mean deportation.

There are unfortunately overtones of racism in the idea of deportation, and you don't help your case by using Fox News and talking about Liberals. Some people probably are more worthy to be here, that got here illegally, than others that got here legally. But if someone is discovered to be here illegally, and the reason it's discovered is because they were committing a crime, I don't see that there is much debate about what to do with them.

I think the problem and the reason these Liberals may have gotten involved is because of profiling. If the police suddenly crack down on undocumented people, well, you can't tell if they are undocumented until you ask to see their documents, right? And since the majority of these people are going to be from one or another ethnic groups, and staying in corresponding ethnic section of town, that means that a lot of good citizens that are minding their own business walking down the streets are going to be stopped, for any reason.

I have to tell you.
We have speed traps to catch people speeding.
We have DWI checkpoints to check for drunk driving
We have the undercover sex crimes to find the internet pedophiles
We have MANY systems of checks to watch for crimes.

There are illegal aliens / immigrants registering kids in our schools. I am sorry but that is outrageous. All you need to register a kid for school is a birth certificate or comparable identification (usually comparable identification is used.) and a bill to prove address.

In most states a drivers license is considered a primary form of ID to prove identification. The movement currently being debated in NY is to lower the requirements of proof of identity in a specific effort to issue drivers licenses to illegal immigrants. This is not a byproduct of lowering the proof of identity. This is the reason current Gov Spitzer wants this passed. Both Republicans AND Democrats are crying foul and raising eyebrows over this.

Fox News should not be discounted because it leans a bit to the right. I believe O'Reilly makes an excellent point before he derails himself. A good point can still be a good point no matter who it comes from. If you are caught committing a crime and in the process you are found to be illegal you go back to your country. You are deported. It doesn't matter if it is something as simple as a barfight to drunk driving or all the way to murder.

It's all nice to say that everyone deserves a shot but illegals are already not playing by the rules. They are criminals upon entering the country as they did not enter the country legally. Anyone who tries to make illegal immigration a hispanic profiling issue does not realize that this is not hte case. This is an immigration issue. In twenty years immigration trends may change again. There are already indications of that now. However the precidents set forth by current legislation will still be on the books.

On a side note - to those that did not want to read through my rant. Let me sum up.
. 1 - Illegal immigration is not the same as legal immigration
. 2 - Illegal immigrants are here illegally and upon discovery should be deported since that is the law
 

Busy Clippers

New Member
It's all nice to say that everyone deserves a shot but illegals are already not playing by the rules.

I understand where you're coming from, but remain unconvinced. It's because of the inconsistency in the way The Rules are applied, or perhaps there are different sets of rules for different people? It has been my experience that in our free society that some people are held accountable for their actions to a much higher degree than others. Take a good look at this bunch of rulebreakers, for example. Details here. Have their punishments fit their crimes?



In contrast, meet "Marcos, " an 11-year old boy left behind alone when his parents were deported. The photo is blurry because he's a minor. Did the punishment fit the crime?



Boy, 11, left behind as parents are deported
Posted on Wed, Oct. 17, 2007
By ALFONSO CHARDY
[email protected]

In an extraordinary move, Miami's Mexican Consulate has gained custody of an 11-year-old boy left behind in Homestead when immigration officials deported his parents recently after police stopped them while traveling in a vehicle with an expired tag.

The boy, who was not identified by officials, appeared nervous and sad after he learned that his parents -- Constantino Vasquez-Tapia and Lucia Mendoza-Santoyo, who worked in a plant nursery -- weren't coming back home, said Hermán Martínez, an immigration advocate who helped get the consulate involved.

''He carried a picture of his mom in a folder with all his papers and he showed it to me, and that gesture almost made me cry,'' Martínez said. The boy never cried.

Mexican consul-in-charge Beatriz Navarro told The Miami Herald on Wednesday that the consulate was working quickly to reunite the boy with his parents, who were sent back to their hometown of Morelia last Friday.

The consul said the couple were detained Sept. 22 after police checked an expired tag on their vehicle -- and then called Border Patrol when it turned out the parents were in the country illegally. The boy apparently was at school.

Victor Colón, the Border Patrol spokesman in Pembroke Pines, confirmed that it arrested the couple and turned them over to Immigration and Customs Enforcement for detention.

In a statement issued Wednesday night, ICE spokesman Ivan Ortiz said the couple told officials upon their arrest that they had a child but that he was in the custody of a relative.

''The parents have been located in Mexico, and arrangements are being made to reunite the child with them.'' the statement said.

A friend of the family took the boy to the Krome detention center in Southwest Miami-Dade, immigration advocates said, in an effort to get the boy to his family, but guards turned them away last month. The couple were actually being held at a different detention center, the Broward Transitional Center in Pompano Beach, according to ICE.

Martínez, who works with the American Friends Service Committee, and Elvira Carvajal, of Asociación Campesina, said Wednesday that the child was generally under the care of an uncle living at the house with his family, but after the parents were detained the boy was left alone after school when the uncle had to work. Since then, Carvajal and others have cared for the child while the uncle works.

The case, first reported by WTVJ-NBC 6 and Telemundo, upset some members of South Florida's immigrant communities, who charged that immigration officials have been callous in events like raids in New Bedford, Mass., where hundreds of illegal workers were detained at a factory this year and some children were left stranded at home or in day care.

''The police have given us assurances that they don't do the work of immigration agents,'' Martínez said. ``If they did this, it was due to discrimination and racism. They destroyed a family. They destroyed the dreams of these people. They left an employer without employees, a landlord without tenants and a child abandoned.''

Martínez and Carvajal said the boy was able to talk to his parents on the phone while they were in detention and after they were deported.

Previously, immigration officials had insisted that if a child is involved in a deportation arrest, one parent is allowed to remain free to care for the child -- or at the very least the Department of Children & Families is called to pick up the child and hold him or her while the couple are in deportation proceedings.

Navarro of the Mexican Consulate said she hoped the system can be improved so that children are not separated from parents in deportation proceedings.

''We are concerned that these deportations occur without due care, dismembering a family and leaving minors without proper protection,'' Navarro said. ``We really hope that in the application of immigration law, these circumstances of leaving minors abandoned are not repeated.''

The Mexican child's case came to the attention of immigrant-rights activists in Homestead when a friend of the deported couple approached them a few days ago with the story that a child had been left behind.

Martínez said the couple and their child arrived in the United States two years ago and lived in the Chicago area. They arrived in Homestead about three months ago.
 
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Buzzetta

WOOOOOOOO!!!!!
Sorry for the eleven year old but I would have no problem telling him nor lose a night of sleep that mommy and daddy did something illegal and that is why they are not coming back.

You fail to realize that illegal immigrants are given the opportunity to apply to come to the country to work. Society is not structured in a manner that we can do whatever we want simply because we cannot get what we want. When I said the rules I mean the law. There is risk and reward. If that boys parents wanted to risk coming to the country illegally in order to gain the reward of whatever they were seeking here... well sometimes when you run across the street you are going to get hit by a car. You cannot cry if you are caught doing something illegal and then have to face the consequences.

As far as Bush... first I must tell you that I have never voted for him. However he has not done anything illegal as far as policy. The policy that Bush has created that has been deemed unconstitutional by the courts has been treated like any other president before him. Bush does what every president before him has done. That is taking a loose interpretation of Constitutional Law when it suits their policy. What would be staunch Democrats today have also followed the same policy and are now regarded as heroes for it. Jefferson was questioned on the constitutionality of the Lousiana Purchase. We forget that Franklin Delano Roosevelt who is ranked as one of the best presidents entire "New Deal" was questionable and was even called on it when he tried packing the Supreme Court. Roosevelt grew frustrated with people who were blocking some his constitutionally questionable acts. In an effort to sidestep them he tried increasing the number of Supreme Court Justices so that he could appoint justices that supported his views and turn the balance of the court vote. Now with that in mind if not for Roosevelt I contend that the country may have completely collapsed and European maps would have looked far different than they are today.

Illegal immigrants are just that... they are illegal. While they should be afforded basic human deceny in an example of immediate medical care, they should be deported immediately upon discovery. The claim that they have to hide, they suffer horrible conditions is meaningless. It is meaningless because illegal immigrants are not supposed to be here.
 
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Worm

Taste the diffidence
No ceremony that to great ones 'longs,
Not the king's crown, nor the deputed sword,
The marshal's truncheon, nor the judge's robe,
Become them with one half so good a grace
As mercy does.
 

Worm

Taste the diffidence
Buzzetta, you are forcing me to choose between Bill O'Reilly and Geraldo Revera? I think they should both be deported. On the Titanic.

Dave, this really cracked me up. You should produce reality TV.

Certain crimes, and drunk driving is one of them, would mean deportation.

There are unfortunately overtones of racism in the idea of deportation, and you don't help your case by using Fox News and talking about Liberals. Some people probably are more worthy to be here, that got here illegally, than others that got here legally. But if someone is discovered to be here illegally, and the reason it's discovered is because they were committing a crime, I don't see that there is much debate about what to do with them.

I think the problem and the reason these Liberals may have gotten involved is because of profiling. If the police suddenly crack down on undocumented people, well, you can't tell if they are undocumented until you ask to see their documents, right? And since the majority of these people are going to be from one or another ethnic groups, and staying in corresponding ethnic section of town, that means that a lot of good citizens that are minding their own business walking down the streets are going to be stopped, for any reason.

Regarding overtones.

One night at an airport bar waiting for a flight I chanced to see FOX News on one of the TV sets over the counter. The show was subtitled so I could read what was being said. There were two news stories which ran back to back, with no commercial break between them.

Story one was about the influx of illegals across the U.S.-Mexico border. There were a few interviews with befuddled border patrolmen and one or two politicians discussing the out-of-control problem of illegal immigration. And of course the piece was peppered with the usual footage of Mexicans furtively crossing dry riverbeds and cops opening the back doors of overcrowded vans.

Story two-- presented with no apparent connection to story one, following right on its heels, as I said-- was a feel-good segment about how the U.S. Navy was leading the way in the armed services' program to allow illegal immigrants to fast-track citizenship by joining up to fight for Uncle Sam. Shots of proud Mexican sailors looking out over glittering waters in some far-off harbor, explaining how proud they were to have recently become citizens.

Neither story was untruthful or malicious by itself. Shown together they revealed something ugly about this debate. There's almost nothing but "overtones". To your good point about profiling (e.g. DWB-- Driving While Black), it's unfortunate that many people are deaf to these overtones. (I direct this comment at nobody here.)
 
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Worm

Taste the diffidence
hahaha, not sarcastic at all. just my special little way of saying that whether or not I agree with all of your posts (which I usually do by the way) you always voice your opinion so well and intellectually, and usually with a hint or sarcasm or humor. so yes, SEXY seemed like the appropriate word. haha ;)

Ahaha. Well, you're very kind. I just have to try a little harder in the typing department so as to overcome my hunchback.
 

Busy Clippers

New Member
You fail to realize that illegal immigrants are given the opportunity to apply to come to the country to work. Society is not structured in a manner that we can do whatever we want simply because we cannot get what we want. When I said the rules I mean the law. There is risk and reward. If that boys parents wanted to risk coming to the country illegally in order to gain the reward of whatever they were seeking here... well sometimes when you run across the street you are going to get hit by a car. You cannot cry if you are caught doing something illegal and then have to face the consequences.

The situation is complex. My point was that our immigration laws are unjust, inconsistent, badly enforced, and should be changed because US immigration policy doesn't fairly acknowledge our dependence upon cheap foreign labor. It's the legacy of colonialism, as Worm's anecdote above shows. Try and apply for a green card. Some people wait 15 - 20 years, is that really worth it? Would you wait, or would you find a way around it? Maybe sneak across the border? Get married? Buy fake papers??

Since the 19th century US immigration policy has become more restrictive and protectionist, but during that time we've become increasingly dependent upon foreign or immigrant labor to do low paying jobs that keep our economy going. For example, the Chinese were considered fantastic railroad workers, but starting in 1882 they were denied citizenship - an injustice that wasn't cleared up until The Magnuson Act in 1943. US companies have been availing themselves of cheap Central American labor for years in those little maquilladoras and in the lettuce fields, and Mexican laborers have been coming here to do "guest worker" jobs since the 1940's. What we're saying to them is that we think it's fine for them to toil in our fields and factories, but but don't they dare try to overstay their welcome or, heaven forbid, think that they are one of us.

And what about those like the Haitians who are seeking political asylum? They arrive by boatloads only to be sent back, but if you come from Cuba and set one foot on dry land you get to stay here forever because the government has decided that they are special. Why?? Should they stay there and get murdered waiting for their application to wind its' way through our paperwork process, especially when other people can just show up??

Our laws are made by a class of people seeking to benefit themselves. Who are these people? They are my people, mine and Bush's, the Mayflower people, the ones who got here first. Our ancestors came on a boat, but it was the right boat and now we get to decide what everybody else can do because we grabbed the most. The United States needs immigration reform, plain and simple. People who contribute to the economy are stakeholders whether we like it or not, and they should share in the rewards.

Illegal immigrants are just that... they are illegal. While they should be afforded basic human deceny in an example of immediate medical care, they should be deported immediately upon discovery. The claim that they have to hide, they suffer horrible conditions is meaningless. It is meaningless because illegal immigrants are not supposed to be here.

But that's just it, they don't get deported immediately. They're imprisoned in an immigration facility for months and sometimes years in some cases, stuck in a limbo where they are without rights and often without representation. Many of them no longer have passports to their native countries, so they're held while their home country decides whether or not to issue one. Get this...if their home government doesn't issue them a passport, they get to stay here. Where's the sense in that?

Sorry for the eleven year old but I would have no problem telling him nor lose a night of sleep that mommy and daddy did something illegal and that is why they are not coming back.

Then your country needs you.:p
 
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