Dear God, please leave me alone... prayer in school?

Ooh, good point. Then, here's what's next. You are the father of a daughter, right? She will be required to wear a burqa and be instructed in the concepts and precepts behind the role of women in Islamic culture, in her public school, starting tomorrow. It's a healthy exploration of culture, you won't mind. You see... if a man sees her hair, loses control, and rapes her, it's her fault for showing her hair. It's a healthy exploration of culture, that's all.

Moment of silence is equivalent to being forced to wear a burqa?

Also, if you think American law has no place for religion you haven't been paying attention. Where do you think it comes from? This country is founded on religious concepts. They aren't being added, they have been and are being removed.

Now, I'm not trying to put religion in the school, or single anyone out and ask what they believe. I'm not for a discussion of religion in schools.

I don't care what the original intent of the law was, or if the religious right think they are pulling a fast one. I'm looking at it simply for what it is and I see some benefits to it.

If people want to use words like "scientific" while they are accepting things on faith, that's fine too. Some people in this thread that have a fundamental belief in evolution are taking it just as much on faith, and authority figures, as other people that believe the Bible is literally the Word of God.

What was the spark that created consciousness in the primordial soup?

Consciousness is evidence of God. The fact that it exists in lower forms is evidence enough that it exists in higher forms as well. If you think that we are the pinnacle of creation, I strongly disagree.
 
Moment of silence is equivalent to being forced to wear a burqa?

Also, if you think American law has no place for religion you haven't been paying attention. Where do you think it comes from? This country is founded on religious concepts. They aren't being added, they have been and are being removed.

Now, I'm not trying to put religion in the school, or single anyone out and ask what they believe. I'm not for a discussion of religion in schools.

I don't care what the original intent of the law was, or if the religious right think they are pulling a fast one. I'm looking at it simply for what it is and I see some benefits to it.

If people want to use words like "scientific" while they are accepting things on faith, that's fine too. Some people in this thread that have a fundamental belief in evolution are taking it just as much on faith, and authority figures, as other people that believe the Bible is literally the Word of God.

What was the spark that created consciousness in the primordial soup?

Consciousness is evidence of God. The fact that it exists in lower forms is evidence enough that it exists in higher forms as well. If you think that we are the pinnacle of creation, I strongly disagree.

Added to the fact that The concept of Humans Evolving from Monkeys was NOT a idea of Darwin's...But the RACISTS who came after him...

If you can't figure that one out, I'm not going to spell it out for you...but "surivival of the fittest" was used to justify Eugenics and if you don't believe me, read some of the text books written by those so-called "scientists" and see what their views on non-whites were....
 
Added to the fact that The concept of Humans Evolving from Monkeys was NOT a idea of Darwin's...But the RACISTS who came after him...

If you can't figure that one out, I'm not going to spell it out for you...but "surivival of the fittest" was used to justify Eugenics and if you don't believe me, read some of the text books written by those so-called "scientists" and see what their views on non-whites were....

See I still cannot understand why one cannot conceptualize the possibility that evolution is the blueprint that a supreme being used that got us to where we are today.
 
See I still cannot understand why one cannot conceptualize the possibility that evolution is the blueprint that a supreme being used that got us to where we are today.

I agree with that notion...except for the idea that human beings evolved from anything other than human beings...

I believe animals within certain "families" are closely enough related to warrant common ancestory...With the exception of Humans and Chimps...

Intellectually we are just so far above them, the notion of relation is absurd to me......Sentience and Reasoning are not things in my opinion that can "evolve", they must be innate....
 
I agree with that notion...except for the idea that human beings evolved from anything other than human beings...

I believe animals within certain "families" are closely enough related to warrant common ancestory...With the exception of Humans and Chimps...

Intellectually we are just so far above them, the notion of relation is absurd to me......Sentience and Reasoning are not things in my opinion that can "evolve", they must be innate....

Evidence clearly dictates that man in a physiological sense is a far cry from man from long ago. Man has evolved from something that is not evident in it's original unmutated form today.
 
Evidence clearly dictates that man in a physiological sense is a far cry from man from long ago. Man has evolved from something that is not evident in it's original unmutated form today.

Definitely...Biblical scholars would say the degenerates were wiped out in a cataclysimcal flood...but perhaps they just jumped off a clff like Lemmings do....

Last year, one of my professors talked about an article that described a third cousin of both chimps and Humans that supposedly existed for 10,000 years before dying off, that interbreded with both Chimps and Humans...I was the only one in the class who had the courage to tell him that was the dumbest thing I had ever heard, because I really don't have the desire to screw anything that isn't human and I doubt that millenia ago, early man decided to start breeding outside of its own species...
 
Last year, one of my professors talked about an article that described a third cousin of both chimps and Humans that supposedly existed for 10,000 years before dying off, that interbreded with both Chimps and Humans...I was the only one in the class who had the courage to tell him that was the dumbest thing I had ever heard, because I really don't have the desire to screw anything that isn't human and I doubt that millenia ago, early man decided to start breeding outside of its own species...

This doesn't prove you had any courage at all. It only proves how little you know about the things you argue against.
 
This doesn't prove you had any courage at all. It only proves how little you know about the things you argue against.

Seriously, do you have any photographs of these Kissing Cousins of Ours? Until I see proof, I consider such theories complete Horseshit
 
Definitely...Biblical scholars would say the degenerates were wiped out in a cataclysimcal flood...but perhaps they just jumped off a clff like Lemmings do....

Last year, one of my professors talked about an article that described a third cousin of both chimps and Humans that supposedly existed for 10,000 years before dying off, that interbreded with both Chimps and Humans...I was the only one in the class who had the courage to tell him that was the dumbest thing I had ever heard, because I really don't have the desire to screw anything that isn't human and I doubt that millenia ago, early man decided to start breeding outside of its own species...

See I cannot take the bible verbatum. My studies over the year have drawn me to the conclusion that the phrase "history is written by the victors" is more applicable to most theology than it is history.

Do I believe in a God? Absolutely. However I do not believe the bible's account of it as an exact historical record. That is where the conservative church goers lose any and all support. The "christian right" in the US that believes that the earth and all that is was created in seven days is a deeply disturbing. It is a group that only beleives the popular records and ignore events outside their own belief system.

They believe that mass should be said in latin as it was pre-vatican II under the support that it is what mass was always said in. They refuse to understand that the first followers of Jesus celebrated in hebrew as they believed themselves to be a continuation of the Jewish faith.

They believe that the world was created in exactly six days with a seventh designed for rest. This comes without a historical understanding that man has been shifting and recreating the units that we measure time for thousands of year. They cannot fathom the idea that a day for a Supreme being may be millions of years.

I will ahve to pay more attention to this thread tomorrow though. I am off to bed and I made a new friend in the "marketplace" section. I am sure he would like to see me dead so I need to spread the love. You would like him and his eBay offerings.
 
See I cannot take the bible verbatum. My studies over the year have drawn me to the conclusion that the phrase "history is written by the victors" is more applicable to most theology than it is history.

Do I believe in a God? Absolutely. However I do not believe the bible's account of it as an exact historical record. That is where the conservative church goers lose any and all support. The "christian right" in the US that believes that the earth and all that is was created in seven days is a deeply disturbing. It is a group that only beleives the popular records and ignore events outside their own belief system.

They believe that mass should be said in latin as it was pre-vatican II under the support that it is what mass was always said in. They refuse to understand that the first followers of Jesus celebrated in hebrew as they believed themselves to be a continuation of the Jewish faith.

They believe that the world was created in exactly six days with a seventh designed for rest. This comes without a historical understanding that man has been shifting and recreating the units that we measure time for thousands of year. They cannot fathom the idea that a day for a Supreme being may be millions of years.

I will ahve to pay more attention to this thread tomorrow though. I am off to bed and I made a new friend in the "marketplace" section. I am sure he would like to see me dead so I need to spread the love. You would like him and his eBay offerings.

He's probably the same guy that I suggested we take up a collection for hiring a bounty hunter to enact physical pain for his extortion....

Oh, yeah...I believe I did state somewhere that creation as stated in Genesis is definitely an allegory...human beings couldn't possibly comprehend how exactly the universe was designed and set into motion...
 
According to Scientific experts this is what Dogs may look like in the year 56,782,390 AD

2921854615
 
robert anton wilson on CSICON

sample: "Personally, I see two or three UFOs every week. This does not astonish me, or convince me of the spaceship theory, because I also see about 2 or 3 UNFOs every week --Unidentified Non-Flying Objects. These remain unidentified (by me) because they go by too fast or look so weird that I never know whether to classify them as hedgehogs, hobgoblins or helicopters-- or as stars or satellites or spaceships -- or as pookahs or pizza-trucks or probability waves. Of course, I also see things that I feel fairly safe in identifying as hedgehogs or stars or pizza trucks, but the world contains more and more events that I cannot identify fully and dogmatically with any norm or generalization. I live in a spectrum of probabilities, uncertainties and wonderments."
 
I went to a religious school and they made you stand up and pray every morning, but it was very perfunctory and lackluster. Everybody knew the prayers by heart and while our mouths were moving, our minds were a million miles away. If you want to kill religion, just have a state religion. Look at the Church of England.
 
Meshing Genesis with evolution is a bit tough, but I think theories like the living universe are more consistent with something made, for example by God, than something that just happened. (See, e.g., Intelligent Design theories and the "found watch" idea.) SNS22 actually made a comment along the lines of one of my long-standing beliefs, which is that it's really weird to imagine all of this just "happening" somehow, far weirder than it is to believe in God making it. As TMYEM's smilies suggest, though, at some point this all gets pretty stoney and I'm reminded of Donald Sutherland in Animal House, explaining that the universe may all be a speck of dirt under some giant's fingernail.

As Pregnant already stated, after billions of years of evolution the universe naturally looks ordered. The simple, over a span of time that is just about incomprehensible, has become the complex. So it's bound to seem so well-ordered that it must have been created. If we must be humble before God and admit that we are lesser beings who do not understand everything, why is it so hard to imagine that we are lesser beings before nature? Why must the thing that is "bigger than ourselves" be a deity?

Having said that, I'm happy to concede the possibility that a Creator got the ball rolling at the beginning of the universe. The Prime Mover is a reasonable idea. But even though that is possible it does nothing to convince me that the religions of the world are true. I realize we're not debating the truthfulness of religions here, so let's not get into that, but I'm just throwing that out there.

Another saying of Sherlock Holmes is that when all the evidence is painstakingly assembled and examined, and all the insufficient explanations for an event are removed, what remains, no matter how unlikely or improbable, is the truth. From what I gather the explanation we're getting down to is incredibly unlikely but it isn't called "God". But, no, I admit, God isn't ruled out yet. He's hanging in there.

Here's a question, though. If atheists will be so good as to concede that, yes, the universe could be created by a God, will the religious be so good as to concede that perhaps their religious laws are not infallible and perhaps even superfluous? A little doubt would be good on all sides.

The fundamentalists are certainly more of a danger in terms of causing a cataclysmic event, whereas materialism and nihilism are a threat in more of a slow burn sense, which makes them less noticable but dangerous in their own way.

I agree. I happen to think those things are the greater problem in the long term. I also think they are causing some of the fundamentalist nutcases to pop out of the woodwork.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but I think the answer could well be more religion-- enlightened religion, that is-- rather than less. The reasonable among Christians, Muslims, and other religions have a chance to lead instead of divide. Without wishing to make too big a deal over this one case, it does seem to contain the best and the worst of our present state of affairs. As it relates to this subject, I'd love to see a lot more public officials like the governor of Illinois and a lot less of the people who want to change the law to bring religion into school.

To the charge that a "moment of silence" is small change compared to burqas, well, these things always start with little concessions. You might call it the beginning of an evolutionary process.
 
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I went to a religious school and they made you stand up and pray every morning, but it was very perfunctory and lackluster. Everybody knew the prayers by heart and while our mouths were moving, our minds were a million miles away. If you want to kill religion, just have a state religion. Look at the Church of England.

Too funny!

And probably true.
 
It was never my intention to debate evolution. I don't care what anybody else believes. Everybody believes something, I think it's a fundamental human need and a human right.

The point that most of you are not getting is that the "moment of silence" is a foot in the door. It's such a loaded idea, it's painfully obvious exactly what it's supposed to be. You can fairly see people making big exaggerated "quote" fingers when they utter the words. It's just like when you were a kid and your sibling would wave his finger over you, gleefully chanting, "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" Now, it's, "This isn't a prayer! This isn't really a prayer!"

The point is that there is no reason to include it in a very crowded school day. It's like keeping a grenade mounted in the school hallway- what are you bitching about, the pin's in!
 
It was never my intention to debate evolution. I don't care what anybody else believes. Everybody believes something, I think it's a fundamental human need and a human right.

The point that most of you are not getting is that the "moment of silence" is a foot in the door. It's such a loaded idea, it's painfully obvious exactly what it's supposed to be. You can fairly see people making big exaggerated "quote" fingers when they utter the words. It's just like when you were a kid and your sibling would wave his finger over you, gleefully chanting, "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" Now, it's, "This isn't a prayer! This isn't really a prayer!"

The point is that there is no reason to include it in a very crowded school day. It's like keeping a grenade mounted in the school hallway- what are you bitching about, the pin's in!

Can it be long before the crucifix is allowed on the wall next to the poster of Yoda encouraging kids to read? Jesus was, after all, an historical figure who has much to teach us about Roman history.
 
Here's a question, though. If atheists will be so good as to concede that, yes, the universe could be created by a God, will the religious be so good as to concede that perhaps their religious laws are not infallible and perhaps even superfluous? A little doubt would be good on all sides.

I'll concede that. Nothing can withstand thousands of years of human involvement without getting at least a little screwed up. Look what's happened to our country in a mere few hundred years.

My avatar? That's Morrissey, a pop singer. Sometimes we talk about him at this online forum I go to where we debate religion.

I've heard of him. Isn't he gay? I don't care about that, but I've also heard he doesn't like America, which bothers me.

(Thereby achieving a trifecta by treading on all three branches of the unholy trinity of endless debate here on Solo.)
 
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