Dear God, please leave me alone... prayer in school?

[SNS22]

Wow... I've come back from a weekend away and I'm measurably surprised. SNS, I'm shocked. You've really surprised me.

The point I felt was obvious has been received. Just as the only arguments anyone ever puts forth against the legalization of gay marriage tap inevitably into religion, the only arguments for this thinly veiled "moment of silence" veer dangerously close to religion. As such, they have no place in American law.

It used to be that children were photographed nude from the waist up, back view, for their school records, to provide a longitudinal record of posture so that scoliosis could be caught in good time. Objectively, and with the gravitas brought about by the passage of time, this seems borderline inappropriate. Likewise, it's just better for schools to avoid the subject of individual religious beliefs entirely. Yes, religion exists. Yes, religious faith is a cornerstone of many people's lives. Yes, each of us has our own beliefs. To avoid the pressures of comparison and judgement, the matter NEEDS to be left right there and not examined further in the public schools. If it's that important to you, send your kid to the Muslim school. Send your kid to St. Christopher's or Southwest Chicago Christian Academy.

The school day is full enough. There is absolutely no need to open this can of worms that can only invite trouble. My child has the right to believe or not believe as he chooses, and ESPECIALLY the right not to be singled out for his beliefs. There is no credible argument for a "moment of silence" as part of the school day. None whatsoever.

I just believe in freedom of expression and freedom of religion and I believe that a FORCED Organized Prayer is wrong...but I believe if people want to pray silently, Who is it harming? Seriously, with all the school shootings, God Knows, the Kids today could use some guidance....

Not that I support the idea of Organized Prayer....BUT

At least kids weren't shooting up the schools back then...

I'm not one to go around Championing or even proposing such "Moment of silences", but I'm also not one to go around bitching about such things when they aren't hurting anyone but people's sense of not being in control of everything that happens in school....

I can see it now, next Parents will be complaining about a class that teaches kids NOT to hate each other, simply because it's "wasting valuable class time" and the Test scores are low enough as it is...

Seriously, when you're a Teacher and you see all the crap that happens in the school around you, anything that reinforces any sense of POSITIVE Value system is not only appreciated, but welcome...

 

[Not Right in the Head]

I just believe in freedom of expression and freedom of religion and I believe that a FORCED Organized Prayer is wrong...but I believe if people want to pray silently, Who is it harming? Seriously, with all the school shootings, God Knows, the Kids today could use some guidance....

Not that I support the idea of Organized Prayer....BUT

At leasts kids weren't shooting up the schools back then...

What if that moment of silence gives the nutjobs that much extra time to go over their shoot-em-up plans?

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

ETA: I went to a public college in my state, a well-respected Big Ten university. In college, I had a truly disheartening experience. As a part of the graduation requirements for my major, which I halfheartedly attempted to adhere to, I had to take a course on Foods and Nutrition. During a lecture on proteins, I witnessed the instructor wax rhapsodically on about how each amino acid needed to be present in certain quantities to achieve complete protein structures, and that only eating certain combinations of amino acids would achieve complete proteins.

Then he topped it all off with a joyous statement something like this, "This is why I cannot believe in evolution. This is all too precise and intelligent and perfect to be an accident. Only a sublime creator could create a system this complex." My jaw dropped, and my blood began boiling. The moron failed to understand the basic premise of evolution: only the fittest survive. If a system doesn't work well, it won't allow the organism to survive. Therefore, no matter how complex or simple the system, if it fails, the organism dies, does not reproduce, and is quickly rendered extinct.

SNS, I respectfully suggest that you do not understand the concept of evolution AT ALL. There is no reason why one can't believe that evolution is the mechanism of creation by a greater being, but you really cannot deny that the mechanism of evolution exists and governs which creatures will die and which will survive. Seriously, it's science. Live with it.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

I just believe in freedom of expression and freedom of religion and I believe that a FORCED Organized Prayer is wrong...but I believe if people want to pray silently, Who is it harming? Seriously, with all the school shootings, God Knows, the Kids today could use some guidance....

Not that I support the idea of Organized Prayer....BUT

At leasts kids weren't shooting up the schools back then...

Well, if a forced "Moment of Silence" isn't a forced "prayer," then I don't know what is. There is nothing stopping any student from engaging in silent personal prayer at any moment of the school day, and never has been.

The point here is that the moment of silence is now MANDATED in my state. It MUST happen each morning.

I was actually in the school office on Thursday morning when the secretary got the call stating she had to make the "moment of silence" announcement... she was as baffled as I was.

 

[SNS22]

What if that moment of silence gives the nutjobs that much extra time to go over their shoot-em-up plans?

Hopefully, God will be listening to them during that moment...

I seriously don't see why people are up in arms, this is not hurting anyone...and if anything it's a healthy exploration of culture...

 

[SNS22]

Well, if a forced "Moment of Silence" isn't a forced "prayer," then I don't know what is. There is nothing stopping any student from engaging in silent personal prayer at any moment of the school day, and never has been.

The point here is that the moment of silence is now MANDATED in my state. It MUST happen each morning.

I was actually in the school office on Thursday morning when the secretary got the call stating she had to make the "moment of silence" announcement... she was as baffled as I was.

If the idea of your child observing any form or religious practice during that moment, then perhaps you could suggest they take the time out to study or something else...I really don't understand how it is HARMING their physical or emotional well-being...

Now if they were forced to have some speaker from a religious institution come speak to them on a daily or even weekly basis...yeah, that's something to find unnerving...

Some children could use divine intervention to help them pass their exams...others could take the time out to study just a little harder....

Of course, we all know the reason for this moment of Silence is to allow the teachers to check their email...

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Hopefully, God will be listening to them during that moment...

I seriously don't see why people are up in arms, this is not hurting anyone...and if anything it's a healthy exploration of culture...

Ooh, good point. Then, here's what's next. You are the father of a daughter, right? She will be required to wear a burqa and be instructed in the concepts and precepts behind the role of women in Islamic culture, in her public school, starting tomorrow. It's a healthy exploration of culture, you won't mind. You see... if a man sees her hair, loses control, and rapes her, it's her fault for showing her hair. It's a healthy exploration of culture, that's all.

 

[SNS22]

Ooh, good point. Then, here's what's next. You are the father of a daughter, right? She will be required to wear a burqa and be instructed in the concepts and precepts behind the role of women in Islamic culture, in her public school, starting tomorrow. It's a healthy exploration of culture, you won't mind. You see... if a man sees her hair, loses control, and rapes her, it's her fault for showing her hair. It's a healthy exploration of culture, that's all.

a Moment Of Silence to the Hijab....that's quite a leap...

And quite an imagination....

Although in my opinion the Forced wearing of School Unifoms are almost as offensive as the Hijab....

I would fight just as hard against School Uniforms as some of you are fighting against "the moment Of silence"....

If a moment of silence is truly that offensive...I would suggest the child pick their nose during the moment as their silent protest

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

If the idea of your child observing any form or religious practice during that moment, then perhaps you could suggest they take the time out to study or something else...I really don't understand how it is HARMING their physical or emotional well-being...

Now if they were forced to have some speaker from a religious institution come speak to them on a daily or even weekly basis...yeah, that's something to find unnerving...

Some children could use divine intervention to help them pass their exams...others could take the time out to study just a little harder....

Of course, we all know the reason for this moment of Silence is to allow the teachers to check their email...

In my school, the teachers do not have computers at their desks. There isn't money for that.

If speakers from a variety of religions were asked to come and present the fundamental precepts of their faith in an objective manner, I would welcome that.

The whole problem is that the forced moment of silence underlines the concept of faith and points a big red arrow at anyone whose faith varies from the norm. That I cannot accept. School should be a place of neutral exploration of concepts and ideas.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

a Moment Of Silence to the Hijab....that's quite a leap...

Nope. Tiny leap. Very little hop. Sorry you don't see that.

 

[SNS22]

In my school, the teachers do not have computers at their desks. There isn't money for that.

If speakers from a variety of religions were asked to come and present the fundamental precepts of their faith in an objective manner, I would welcome that.

The whole problem is that the forced moment of silence underlines the concept of faith and points a big red arrow at anyone whose faith varies from the norm. That I cannot accept. School should be a place of neutral exploration of concepts and ideas.

I was refering to religious leaders coming every day and having a prayer, ceremony, or killing a live chicken like those Santaria people do....THAT is something to protest...

The Kids can doodle or read Huckleberry Finn during the moment of silence if they choose too...Oh, I forgot Huckleberry Finn is banned in most states...Ironcially, the book was hated during Twain's lifetime because it portrayed a black man being treated Fairly and equally...which during that time was as repugnant and offensive as a moment of silence seems to be during mine...

 

[Alcoholic Afternoons]

Just as the only arguments anyone ever puts forth against the legalization of gay marriage tap inevitably into religion, the only arguments for this thinly veiled "moment of silence" veer dangerously close to religion. As such, they have no place in American law.

Actually there could be secular arguments for a moment of silence, such as to contemplate how fortunate the kids should feel to be fed, sheltered and being educated for free in public schools, or to consider what life is like in other parts of the world or what it would be like to be a dog or something like that. Those arguments aren't being made, but they could be. I'd support that kind of moment of silence, actually.

Since you think things that veer dangerously close to religion don't belong in American law, presumbably you also believe that marriage between siblings and polygamy should be legal? (I do, actually, so don't assume I'm opposed just because I asked the question.)

If it's that important to you, send your kid to the Muslim school. Send your kid to St. Christopher's or Southwest Chicago Christian Academy.

Assuming you can afford it, of course.

 

[Not Right in the Head]

TABLE SALT...comes from two highly poisonous substances...Sodium and Chlorine...and yet, somehow, Miraculously, the two form a non-lethal chemical compound? Are these substances ALIVE and do they Think about what it would be like if they "hook" up? No, what an absurd notion? So why do they combine and yet, don't combine with other substances....why do some elements work together and others don't? Trial and Error? And how do they possible remember..."Uh, dude...hooking up with Iron, just ain't gonna work?...Pass it on to the rest of the Atoms like us in the world..."...NO....The only LOGICAL explanation is that something designed them to work with some elements and to not work with others...

You're seriously undermining your arguments by saying things like "sodium and chlorine...don't combine with other substances." Nobody who's had even the most basic chemistry course could come up with a statement like that.

 

[SNS22]

You're seriously undermining your arguments by saying things like "sodium and chlorine...don't combine with other substances." Nobody who's had even the most basic chemistry course could come up with a statement like that.

That's not what I'm saying...I used that Example to explain how two dangerous substances form a non-dangerous substance...

Then I went on to ask why some Elements will combine with other elements, but not with Others....Not ALL Elements will combine with All Other elements..I probably was typing so fast, I didn't pay attention to what words came out...

I believe there were questions about Sodium Hydroxide on my CSET

So, I'm not as ignorant as I often appear

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Actually there could be secular arguments for a moment of silence, such as to contemplate how fortunate the kids should feel to be fed, sheltered and being educated for free in public schools, or to consider what life is like in other parts of the world or what it would be like to be a dog or something like that. Those arguments aren't being made, but they could be. I'd support that kind of moment of silence, actually.

Well, no. To whom is the gratitude directed? The kid can tell his dad and I thanks at dinner.

Since you think things that veer dangerously close to religion don't belong in American law, presumbably you also believe that marriage between siblings and polygamy should be legal? (I do, actually, so don't assume I'm opposed just because I asked the question.)

There are logical and legal arguments against these types of marriages, independent of religion. I believe that any two adults who are unrelated by blood and both of legal age (18+) should be permitted to partner as spouses under law and reap the legal and tax benefits of the partnership. End of story, no further qualifications.

Assuming you can afford it, of course.

The most obnoxious thing around here is that if you are a complete atheist, there are NO private schools available to you. None. The only private schools have religious affiliations. Which is why, in part, I believe that the public schools should be scrubbed free of religious influence, beyond the basic Judeo-Christian precepts on which our society is founded.

 

[Not Right in the Head]

That's not what I'm saying...I used that Example to explain how two dangerous substances form a non-dangerous substance...

Dangerous to what? Neither element exists by itself in nature. Water is dangerous to animals with lungs, if they can't get to the surface for a breath. Pure alcohol is dangerous if you ingest too much. But if you mix them together, you can get a non-dangerous, tasty drink.

Then I went on to ask why some Elements will combine with other elements, but not with Others....Not ALL Elements will combine with All Other elements..I probably was typing so fast, I didn't pay attention to what words came out...

The laws governing how elements combine are fairly simple to state and observe.

I believe there were questions about Sodium Hydroxide on my CSET

But you're not teaching chemistry, right?

So, I'm not as ignorant as I often appear

For me to accept that, my belief that what you're saying is true would have to overcome the empirical evidence.

 

[PregnantForTheLastTime]

Water is dangerous to animals with lungs, if they can't get to the surface for a breath. Pure alcohol is dangerous if you ingest too much. But if you mix them together, you can get a non-dangerous, tasty drink.

Amen, sugah! Make my "water" the tonic variety, make the alcohol any decent vodka, and I'm a happy girl. Oh, twist of lime too, por favor.

And with that... I'm putting myself to bed. ta ta...

 

[SNS22]

Well, no. To whom is the gratitude directed? The kid can tell his dad and I thanks at dinner.



There are logical and legal arguments against these types of marriages, independent of religion. I believe that any two adults who are unrelated by blood and both of legal age (18+) should be permitted to partner as spouses under law and reap the legal and tax benefits of the partnership. End of story, no further qualifications.



The most obnoxious thing around here is that if you are a complete atheist, there are NO private schools available to you. None. The only private schools have religious affiliations. Which is why, in part, I believe that the public schools should be scrubbed free of religious influence, beyond the basic Judeo-Christian precepts on which our society is founded.

It's good to know that you don't support In-breeding

Now that is DEFINITELY something to prostest....as would some of that Warren Jeffs crap that goes on in Hidden Encloves in Arizona and Utah...

So basically, you're saying you want to be able to choose WHICH Judeo-Christain principles should influence our schools, and if you don't like it then you should be the one to demand its removal?

Perhaps, They should make it legal for children to be disobedient to their parents, because it is a "Judeo-Christian principle"? Why not throw out any form of punishment, whatsoever for theft or false-witness? It doesn't physically harm anyone and well, it's based on the 10 Commandments...and we need to purge our society of ANY and ALL Religious Influence.....

 

[SNS22]

Dangerous to what? Neither element exists by itself in nature. Water is dangerous to animals with lungs, if they can't get to the surface for a breath. Pure alcohol is dangerous if you ingest too much. But if you mix them together, you can get a non-dangerous, tasty drink.



The laws governing how elements combine are fairly simple to state and observe.



But you're not teaching chemistry, right?



For me to accept that, my belief that what you're saying is true would have to overcome the empirical evidence.

Well, yes they are simple...my point is that I find it highly imporable that while Simple to understand, it would have been very difficult for non-living particles to "figure out" those things on their own....

No, Chemistry was never my strong subject...I prefered to play with the gas valve any chance I got...which explains a lot....

Yes, I Am Often as Ignorant as I appear

 

[Alcoholic Afternoons]

Well, no. To whom is the gratitude directed? The kid can tell his dad and I thanks at dinner.

Can't they just ponder, or think deeply? Can't they just feel happy for their circumstance or empathize with those that live under worse circumstances? Who says they have to direct gratitude anywhere?

There are logical and legal arguments against these types of marriages, independent of religion. I believe that any two adults who are unrelated by blood and both of legal age (18+) should be permitted to partner as spouses under law and reap the legal and tax benefits of the partnership. End of story, no further qualifications.

Okay, I'm game. Name one that warrants the invasion of reproductive rights and the right to marry the consenting adult(s) of your choice such that it should be prohibited. I'm aware of the birth defect issue among relatives, but with genetic counseling, adoption, etc., surely the State shouldn't claim such an interest to warrant prohibiting siblings from marrying. If that's appropriate, shouldn't they also prohibit marriage based on genetic testing results for any two people? What's the difference?

The most obnoxious thing around here is that if you are a complete atheist, there are NO private schools available to you. None. The only private schools have religious affiliations.

You're pretty fortunate if that's the most obnoxious thing with which you have to deal.

Which is why, in part, I believe that the public schools should be scrubbed free of religious influence, beyond the basic Judeo-Christian precepts on which our society is founded.

Basic Judeo-Christian precepts are okay, though? Like, what? There is a God? Prayer? What about Muslim precepts? Hindu?