David Cameron on Morrissey

[Qvist]

Perfectly true, but everything is relative. It's not the nature of politics to be constantly exasperated, much less to not acknowledge that things have, in fact, moved steadily away from the things everyone was complaining about not too long ago. Residual, instinctual disapprobation unrelated to any realistic standard of expectation isn't awfully constructive, in politics or anywhere else.

What gets me is the fact I dont, ever, see people writing or saying things like "well, that Blair was a sly one and Brown is no better, and that Cameron isn't all he's trying to make himself out as, but at least we now have a Labor party that is actually capable of implementing effective policies that much of the population can identify with and a Conservative Party that doesn't actually crave confrontation and divisiveness".

Remember what it was like in the 70s and 80s, on both sides of the spectrum, when the most widely hated PM in modern British history kept getting re-elected because most moderate people felt the alternative was even worse? The Tories have, on the whole, moved as far away from that as anyone could reasonably hope for, and so has Labour. British politics today is moderate, and reasonably reasonable.

So, when I hear people grumble about how the Labor Party has betrayed its roots, I can't help thinking "What, didn't you notice that this is no longer a country that runs on heavy industry and would you rather that they'd stuck to their purity and let the Tories run the country?". And when I hear people lambasting Cameron for bicycling to Parliament while the driver tags along with the documents, I can't help but think "Isn't it a main point here that there's a Tory leader who even tries to show he cares"? (Well, that, and "Have you ever tried bicycling with large boxes of documents?"). The whole Smiths thing is a case in point, actually - you'd think people felt it was something that was a positive to some extent or other, but instead people seem disposed to take it as a personal insult, or even refuseto bvelieve it.

cheers

 

[TheReader]

Yep - I agree.

But then I think that quite a large majority of people are lazy/stupid/selfish and pick & choose what they want to believe and when they want to believe it.

Unfortunately when it comes to voting en mass, the realization that a lot of people are like that comes back and slaps you in the face. And then affects pretty much every aspect of your life.

Obviously, I am generalising horribly, but I'm trying to write this on my phone while at work. It's hard to unleash a torrent of fury on a tiny keyboard.

 

[death below the stairs]

Re: Dave Rowntree of Blur has a go at David Cameron

Yes, of course. And?

cheers

And thats it.

 

[death below the stairs]

Perfectly true, but everything is relative. It's not the nature of politics to be constantly exasperated, much less to not acknowledge that things have, in fact, moved steadily away from the things everyone was complaining about not too long ago. Residual, instinctual disapprobation unrelated to any realistic standard of expectation isn't awfully constructive, in politics or anywhere else.

What gets me is the fact I dont, ever, see people writing or saying things like "well, that Blair was a sly one and Brown is no better, and that Cameron isn't all he's trying to make himself out as, but at least we now have a Labor party that is actually capable of implementing effective policies that much of the population can identify with and a Conservative Party that doesn't actually crave confrontation and divisiveness".

Remember what it was like in the 70s and 80s, on both sides of the spectrum, when the most widely hated PM in modern British history kept getting re-elected because most moderate people felt the alternative was even worse? The Tories have, on the whole, moved as far away from that as anyone could reasonably hope for, and so has Labour. British politics today is moderate, and reasonably reasonable.

So, when I hear people grumble about how the Labor Party has betrayed its roots, I can't help thinking "What, didn't you notice that this is no longer a country that runs on heavy industry and would you rather that they'd stuck to their purity and let the Tories run the country?". And when I hear people lambasting Cameron for bicycling to Parliament while the driver tags along with the documents, I can't help but think "Isn't it a main point here that there's a Tory leader who even tries to show he cares"? (Well, that, and "Have you ever tried bicycling with large boxes of documents?"). The whole Smiths thing is a case in point, actually - you'd think people felt it was something that was a positive to some extent or other, but instead people seem disposed to take it as a personal insult, or even refuseto believe it.

cheers

I think some people just find politicians who have had a privileged upbringing insulting, when they play the "I'm just like you" card. People don't like being patronised.
I don't think people care whether Cam Likes Moz or not, it's just the way he has tried to use it in his favour in some way that irks and insults. It is also hilarious that a tory PM who severed under Thatcher likes The Smiths, as Morrissey has always hated that ilk of person and The Smiths were against all the tories stood for- now one can quote this ideology and that philosophy but the fact remains, The Smiths and Morrissey in his solo years are anti Tory so the mismatch between Morrissey and Cam is glaring.
I think you may even find that Morrissey has more respect for Thatcher than he has for Blair or Cam. As they pretend to be nice when really they are selling the same poison-At least Thatcher was who she was.
I would actually rather see someone with some sense of depth and gravitas aim for PM rather than the new bread of Politic idols.
All people vying for PM try to show they care, some just are more hell bent on it than others- never trust the over nice.

 

[death below the stairs]

Heh, as much as British politicians leave to be desired, I quite frankly think there's considerably more to be said about British voters. You're just never happy, are you. No, strike that, you're never above the threshold of abject disgust in at least one (and often both) leaders of the major parties. You all thought Neil Kinnock was a pillock for being too old-fashioned to beat Thatcher. Then Blair came in and changed all of that, and pretty soon he was a pillock for betraying the old ideals of the working class. You hated Thatcher for sticking to her views regardless of opposition, and you hate Cameron for being an opportunist who acknowledge concerns and views not traditionally central to the conservatives. You hated John Major for being too ordinary, and you hated William Hague for being too extreme.

You lot have better politicians than you deserve. Which is luckier than most countries.

cheers

Yes indeed, all this is why we are an interesting nation and why our country spews people like Bowie,Crisp,Ray Davis,Mark E Smith and Morrissey in to the world.
We are never quite happy so we keep moving

 

[anon x]

I blame it all on Bucks Fizz and their seemingly successful campaign to get IDIOTS to vote.
WARNING:those of you with a sensitive nature may want to look away.

 

[Qvist]

I think some people just find politicians who have had a privileged upbringing insulting, when they play the "I'm just like you" card. People don't like being patronised.
I don't think people care whether Cam Likes Moz or not, it's just the way he has tried to use it in his favour in some way that irks and insults. It is also hilarious that a tory PM who severed under Thatcher likes The Smiths, as Morrissey has always hated that ilk of person and The Smiths were against all the tories stood for- now one can quote this ideology and that philosophy but the fact remains, The Smiths and Morrissey in his solo years are anti Tory so the mismatch between Morrissey and Cam is glaring.
I think you may even find that Morrissey has more respect for Thatcher than he has for Blair or Cam. As they pretend to be nice when really they are selling the same poison-At least Thatcher was who she was.
I would actually rather see someone with some sense of depth and gravitas aim for PM rather than the new bread of Politic idols.
All people vying for PM try to show they care, some just are more hell bent on it than others- never trust the over nice.

What, you feel patronised because a politician likes the same music you do and says so? Is that really reasonable?

David Cameron entered parliament in 2001 - 11 years after Thatcher stepped down as PM, at which time Cameron was 23 and presumably still in University.

Other than that, what can I say other than thanks for illustrating my point. If Thatcher or someone like her was still around, do you think you'd be concerned about the "over nice"?

cheers

 

[Qvist]

Yes indeed, all this is why we are an interesting nation and why our country spews people like Bowie,Crisp,Ray Davis,Mark E Smith and Morrissey in to the world.
We are never quite happy so we keep moving

Yes well, the point is that "never quite happy" is a bit of an understatement. Much as I love Britain, I am sorry to say you're not actually a uniquely interesting nation, nor one particularly noted for always being on the move, and I hugely doubt that the genius of Bowie or Mark E. Smith is ascribable to your national tendency over the past three decades to flagellate your politicians. To be quite frank.

cheers

 

[Nats1977]

People are complaining about politicians and the state of affairs in Britain just now because we have a government that NOBODY voted for - very few people are happy with a Tory party leaning to the left, a Lib-Dem party losing identity or a Labour party in opposition. The media keeps saying "the people voted for a hung-parliament" but of course we didn't, we just didn't agree. And Scotland voted for Labour with the Torys coming in 4th(!) yet forming our government.
Its strange to me that you think British people are never happy with their representatives when I have been shocked at the way Barack Obama (a politician alot of British people would love to have the opportunity to vote for) has so quickly been berated (see The Pigsty for more details) by some Americans. I think you are just hearing the negativity when obviously we have just been disagreeing on who we relate to - there are plenty of politicians that I respect and support too.

On the subject of Cameron, I do find it hard to believe he is a Smiths fan because of his politics. Yes, that makes me prejudiced - why do I think he can't appreciate Morrissey just because he disagrees with him on this subject? I am just being honest - it doesn't ring true that a Thatcherite would listen to Viva Hate and "get it". Any Thatcherites on this board that can help me understand would be appreciated.

And I DO think Britain is unique and interesting - thats why despite the issues we have I still want to live here

 

[Qvist]

People are complaining about politicians and the state of affairs in Britain just now because we have a government that NOBODY voted for - very few people are happy with a Tory party leaning to the left, a Lib-Dem party losing identity or a Labour party in opposition. The media keeps saying "the people voted for a hung-parliament" but of course we didn't, we just didn't agree. And Scotland voted for Labour with the Torys coming in 4th(!) yet forming our government.

Here we go. Who exactly is that complaint addressed to? Was it the politicians who chose a hung parliament? God, perhaps? This is the result. This is what the politicians have to work with. This is the starting point that reasonable expectations need to be formed from, while to you it apparently is a general license for everyone to be roaringly displeased. Which, no doubt, you will be.

Its strange to me that you think British people are never happy with their representatives when I have been shocked at the way Barack Obama (a politician alot of British people would love to have the opportunity to vote for) has so quickly been berated (see The Pigsty for more details) by some Americans.

The thing is, Obama is generally only berated by people who are firmly on the other side. I do not see in the US the general kneejerk negativity that I see in the UK.

I think you are just hearing the negativity when obviously we have just been disagreeing on who we relate to - there are plenty of politicians that I respect and support too.

I'm hearing unreasonable negativity across the board, such as in this very post.

On the subject of Cameron, I do find it hard to believe he is a Smiths fan because of his politics. Yes, that makes me prejudiced - why do I think he can't appreciate Morrissey just because he disagrees with him on this subject? I am just being honest - it doesn't ring true that a Thatcherite would listen to Viva Hate and "get it". Any Thatcherites on this board that can help me understand would be appreciated.

And here we go yet again. Your choice of words is interesting when you choose to see Cameron as a "Thatcherite". What exactly do you mean by that? For most of Thatcher's reign, David Cameroon was a schoolboy. As far as I can tell, he represents a conservatism that is many respects very significantly different from Thatcher's. Which, if you dislike Thatcher, ought to be a positive to some extent. But you don't even want to acknowledge it.

And I DO think Britain is unique and interesting - thats why despite the issues we have I still want to live here

Sure it's unique and interesting. But so are a lot of other places, and it is really quite weak to argue that political dissatisfaction is something that is an essential part of making Britain an uniquely interesting place.

cheers

 

[Nats1977]

Here we go. Who exactly is that complaint addressed to? Was it the politicians who chose a hung parliament? God, perhaps? This is the result. This is what the politicians have to work with. This is the starting point that reasonable expectations need to be formed from, while to you it apparently is a general license for everyone to be roaringly displeased. Which, no doubt, you will be.




The thing is, Obama is generally only berated by people who are firmly on the other side. I do not see in the US the general kneejerk negativity that I see in the UK.



I'm hearing unreasonable negativity across the board, such as in this very post.



And here we go yet again. Your choice of words is interesting when you choose to see Cameron as a "Thatcherite". What exactly do you mean by that? For most of Thatcher's reign, David Cameroon was a schoolboy. As far as I can tell, he represents a conservatism that is many respects very significantly different from Thatcher's. Which, if you dislike Thatcher, ought to be a positive to some extent. But you don't even want to acknowledge it.



Sure it's unique and interesting. But so are a lot of other places, and it is really quite weak to argue that political dissatisfaction is something that is an essential part of making Britain an uniquely interesting place.

cheers

I'm not trying to get into an argument here and I didn't mean my post to be negative or sound like I was complaining about the result to anyone.
I was trying to explain why there has been a wave of negative comments from all political sides on the boards in the last week and give you an insight into the mood of the nation. We are frustrated with the state of affairs certainly but don't think we are blaming anyone - my point in the last post was that this is a situation NOONE would have chosen in any party.
Obviously your impression is that we are generally more negative than other countries - fair enough, it is interesting you see us that way. I am on the inside as it were so perhaps can't see the wood for the trees. You must admit however that you are seeing this from a distance (as I am to your country) and therefore can't really compare the two nations? Perhaps you lived here for a while, I don't know, so if you have I apologise. I have never lived outside of the UK so I don't suppose I can comment!
British politics focuses as much on the downsides of the opposition as the plus sides of your party - is that why you see us as negative? I agree it can be very tiring to hear Prime Ministers Questions for instance when all they do is attack and counter-attack without ever really saying what they WILL do instead of what they won't. I see the US as similar however - I am particularly thinking of the smear campaigns during elections in the past - have I the wrong impression? (This is not a snide comment - I mean it as a serious question )

Anyway I think we have left the point of the thread so I apologise for hijacking.

 

[Qvist]

Anyway I think we have left the point of the thread so I apologise for hijacking.

Not at all, the hijacking apologies should be on me. But the essence of it is quite right, so these will be my last words on the subject.

I'm not trying to get into an argument here and I didn't mean my post to be negative or sound like I was complaining about the result to anyone.
I was trying to explain why there has been a wave of negative comments from all political sides on the boards in the last week and give you an insight into the mood of the nation. We are frustrated with the state of affairs certainly but don't think we are blaming anyone - my point in the last post was that this is a situation NOONE would have chosen in any party.
Obviously your impression is that we are generally more negative than other countries - fair enough, it is interesting you see us that way. I am on the inside as it were so perhaps can't see the wood for the trees. You must admit however that you are seeing this from a distance (as I am to your country) and therefore can't really compare the two nations? Perhaps you lived here for a while, I don't know, so if you have I apologise. I have never lived outside of the UK so I don't suppose I can comment!
British politics focuses as much on the downsides of the opposition as the plus sides of your party - is that why you see us as negative? I agree it can be very tiring to hear Prime Ministers Questions for instance when all they do is attack and counter-attack without ever really saying what they WILL do instead of what they won't. I see the US as similar however - I am particularly thinking of the smear campaigns during elections in the past - have I the wrong impression? (This is not a snide comment - I mean it as a serious question )

I'm not making any comparison to Norway (which is quite another cup of tea), nor am I commenting solely or specifically on the mood of the last couple of weeks in Britain. Certainly I am seeing it as an outsider.

The gist of my point is this. The very things people have been vociferously complaining about concerning New Labour and the Tories a la Cameron, for as long as they have been around, is the same things people were lamenting the absence of during the Kinnock/Thatcher period. You've got what you were calling for during the eighties - ie, an effective counterforce to the Tories and a conservative party that isn't hell-bent on confrontation. Which doesn't seem to please anyone. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, is what I'd be thinking if I were a British politician.

I am not accusing you of being inflammatory, rather I am noting that what you say contains much of the essence of this, which is even more interesting for not being intended as confrontational. For instance, you describe Cameron as a Thatcherite, which there is no good reason to regard him as, unless that is something that automatically applies to any Tory leader. There is a real political difference between Cameron and Thatcher, an obvious one even. But you choose not to acknowledge it, which to me indicates an odd preference for sticking to a confrontational mode that ultimately reflects the reality of several decades ago. Ditto the everyone being unhappy with the present parliamentary situation. The only ones who have any good reason for being so is supporters of Labour (and even among those I'd wager there's a good few who feel it will ultimately benefit the party to go through a period as opposition). Liberal or Conservative sympathisers have no reason to - both parties are in a vastly improved position to influence Britain than they have been for a long time - in the case of the Liberals, since World War 2. If you're unhappy with that, then you simply have expectations and demands that are waaaay beyond any claim to realism or reasonableness. Which is basically my accusation against British voters.

cheers

 

[anon x]

Damned if you do and damned if you don't, is what I'd be thinking if I were a British politician.

At the moment this is very true. Politicians of ALL parties are mistrusted more than ever,perhaps due to the expenses scandal and the developing public awareness of "spin".
As for British cynicism,I put it down to originating from the class structure which led to lack of confidence leading to an inferiority complex which manifests itself in mistrust and transference of anger.

(also,partly,the reason for the Brits abuse of alcohol)

 

[billy scissors]

.
As for British cynicism,I put it down to originating from the class structure which led to lack of confidence leading to an inferiority complex which manifests itself in mistrust and transference of anger.





Good old plain English,thats what I like to hear