Daily Record: "Morrissey used to be a charming man..."

The Daily Record placed this article behind a survey/advertising question, so I've taken the liberty of reproducing the entire thing here.
Written by / all credit: John Niven.

Morrissey used to be a charming man. Now it's more big mouth strikes again. And again. And again - Daily Record
John Niven muses on his teenage idol who has fallen off his pedestal in recent years as his political views have changed.

“Pictures of Strummer that fell from your wall, and nothing was hung in their place...” So sang Roddy Frame on Aztec Camera’s single Walk Out to Winter, all the way back in 1983.

I always took that lyric to be about the death of teenage hero worship.
Funnily enough, 1983 was about exactly the year the pictures of Strummer finally did fall from my wall, but, back then, at the age of 17, it was pictures of Morrissey that hung in their place for the next couple of years.

I worshipped the Morrissey of 1983 -1985. Every NME interview was an occasion, every Smiths Top of the Pops performance a jaw-dropping landmark moment of your teens. (A bush you could actually have hidden in hanging from his back pocket when they did Heaven Knows I’m Miserable Now, the words Marry Me scrawled across his chest during William It Was Really Nothing.)

He hated Thatcher, played benefits for the GLC and openly praised CND.

It would have been hard indeed for me to connect the Morrissey of then with the Morrissey now, who a week ago said: “Last night Marine Le Pen easily won the French Election debate. Today both the BBC and CNN say Macron won the debate.

"This is precisely the reason why mainstream news media outlets cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Their private agendas are more important than facts, reality, or their duty to the people.”

It’s hard to know where to start with the unpacking of all this.

What’s most infuriating? Is it the parroting of the Trumpian “fake news” and “mainstream media lies”?

Or is just the fact that he’s expressing any kind of admiration of Marine Le Pen at all?

This is the Marine Le Pen who very recently pretty much denied France’s role in deporting Jews to the concentration camps.

The Marine Le Pen who worships Trump and Putin and who thought Brexit was great and who would have pulled France out of the EU too, had she not been (thankfully) defeated at the polls.

The same Marine Le Pen that any right-thinking person believes is about as close to an actual fascist that you would want to get.

Then you cast your mind back to Morrissey’s comments last year. He said: “As for Brexit, the result was magnificent, but it is not accepted by the BBC or Sky News because they object to a public that cannot be hypnotized by BBC or Sky nonsense.”

Or, a couple of years before that, when he said in a Loaded magazine interview: “I like Nigel Farage a great deal. His views are quite logical – especially where Europe is concerned.”

Well, as Father Ted said to the man with an enormous collection of Nazi memorabilia: “They say you do get more right wing as you get older...”

It has reached the point where Morrissey fills pretty much the same function for me as the Red Hot Chili Peppers do for Nick Cave.

The Smiths feature on an NME front cover from 1984:
JS119364700.jpg


In case you don’t know the quote, Nick Cave famously said: “Whenever I’m near a stereo and I say, ‘What the hell is this rubbish?’, the answer is always the Red Hot Chili Peppers.” NB He didn’t say “hell” or “rubbish” but this is a family newspaper, kids.

Similarly, whenever I hear an outrageous racially sensitive quote and I say: “Dear God, what idiot said that?” The answer is almost always Morrissey.

If you’d told the 17-year-old me back in 1983 (the me who would have taken the proverbial flying bullet for Morrissey) that his Labour-campaigning, vegetarian, pro-CND, Thatcher-hating god would one day be a Farage and Le Pen-loving Brexiteer, he wouldn’t have believed you. He’d probably have attacked you.

But that’s hero worship for you, always tending towards disappointment in the end.

Or, as Julie Burchill once said: “The same pop star that you would have laid your life down for at the age of 15, a couple of years later you’d have to be coaxed across the road with red hot pokers to pour water on them if they were on fire.”

NB She didn’t suggest using water to put out the flames, it was another liquid. But this is a family newspaper, kids."

Regards,
FWD.
 
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Quando quando quando

Well-Known Member
You are being rude and unfair with a lot of artists who are now even better artists than before.

Yes. That too.
But he is not the only saying things like that.
I wonder if he and others have a criterion at which age popstars should be considered not young anymore and therefore packing it in and doing other interesting things like staying at home and watch the grass and the flowers grow in their garden.
25? 30? 35?

And, are these young pop/rock stars always that good because they are young? I doubt that.

Mind you, it can make selection of music you tend to like so much easier by ruling out anyone older then 35 or maybe 40. And there is an enormous amount of music available. If you don't want to miss a thing, which happens a lot with youngsters, you will have a hard time to find out. And even more so when there is a lot of garbage to go through. Which there is.
I don't blame them.
They will find out for themselves, or not. :thumb:
 

countthree

Well-Known Member
Yes. That too.
But he is not the only saying things like that.
I wonder if he and others have a criterion at which age popstars should be considered not young anymore and therefore packing it in and doing other interesting things like staying at home and watch the grass and the flowers grow in their garden.
25? 30? 35?

And, are these young pop/rock stars always that good because they are young? I doubt that.

Mind you, it can make selection of music you tend to like so much easier by ruling out anyone older then 35 or maybe 40. And there is an enormous amount of music available. If you don't want to miss a thing, which happens a lot with youngsters, you will have a hard time to find out. And even more so when there is a lot of garbage to go through. Which there is.
I don't blame them.
They will find out for themselves, or not. :thumb:

Sure.

My personal opinion is: once a star, always a star, no matter the cirmcumstances. I don't believe in retirements, a lot of people made wonderful things at older ages. Others when they were young, and others during all their lives. You can compare things, not people. We all are unique.
 
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Margaret Mead

Guest
Of course Morrissey grew. But I was talking about some fans who never grow and get stuck in their teen years. It's very difficult to move them from their comfort zone, their first loved songs and the same old sounds. They are like parrots, always repeating the same things, which is not essentially bad except when they close the door to new things just because they are new and make them feel uncomfortable because they have to... think. God save them of the sin of having a new thought or a new feeling about music or whatever. It's easier for them to fire the sinner in the pyre and keep holding their pre-packaged ideology as the most absolute truth. It's so easy in this way, isn't it? Let's make a lot of fires, there are so many witches to burn, so many books to destroy, so many people who talk out of the official script who don't deserve to be alive. Let's have another inquisition! We are so f***ing good and tolerant people, we hate so much any kind of dictatorship and we would die defending freedom of speech. Ours, of course.

You're describing yourself and the other Mozbots, here, right?

WTF do you mean with "racially sensitive"?
It's a quote from the story?
"Similarly, whenever I hear an outrageous racially sensitive quote and I say: “Dear God, what idiot said that?” The answer is almost always Morrissey."

You believe in human races or not. Please notice I'm talking about a "belief", because race is a cultural construction, not a scientific one..
That is also "a belief." I understand that when we look at the history of the concept of race we can see it has been used to justify mistreating people, so I'm not advocating it. But it's really a matter of how you define it. Anthropologists debate it so you don't really have the authority to say it exists or not, but you're welcome to your opinion. The thing is, the "belief" that race doesn't exist is also used politically.


You belong to a cult.
Is that a scientific opinion or a cultural construction?
 

countthree

Well-Known Member
You're describing yourself and the other Mozbots, here, right?


It's a quote from the story?
"Similarly, whenever I hear an outrageous racially sensitive quote and I say: “Dear God, what idiot said that?” The answer is almost always Morrissey."

That is also "a belief." I understand that when we look at the history of the concept of race we can see it has been used to justify mistreating people, so I'm not advocating it. But it's really a matter of how you define it. Anthropologists debate it so you don't really have the authority to say it exists or not, but you're welcome to your opinion. The thing is, the "belief" that race doesn't exist is also used politically.



Is that a scientific opinion or a cultural construction?
You're describing yourself and the other Mozbots, here, right?


It's a quote from the story?
"Similarly, whenever I hear an outrageous racially sensitive quote and I say: “Dear God, what idiot said that?” The answer is almost always Morrissey."

That is also "a belief." I understand that when we look at the history of the concept of race we can see it has been used to justify mistreating people, so I'm not advocating it. But it's really a matter of how you define it. Anthropologists debate it so you don't really have the authority to say it exists or not, but you're welcome to your opinion. The thing is, the "belief" that race doesn't exist is also used politically.



Is that a scientific opinion or a cultural construction?

Margaret, first of all I'd like to say that one of life's contradictions is that the name of a beautiful flower will be linked forever with a war criminal.

I'm not a bot, just a person, so I can't be a Mozbot. But if that's your way of insulting people, I won't limit your hardly won (by other people) right of free speech. If some guys didn't save western civilization some centuries ago you as a woman would be covered with veils from head to toes, educated to please men desires and used as a cow. Your freedom of speech, like mine, would be zero, like your chances of becoming a ceo or a president or a citizen with equal rights. So please feel free to insult. But remember where that freedom comes from.

Races don't exist from a biological point of view. They are a cultural construction based on extremely few external features of human species. What exists, and here is where you can talk about anthropologists, is a myriad of human cultures each one of them with different ideologies. Religions are a kind of ideology (set of ideas that explain the world). That is why I said the social construction of the idea of human race is "a belief". It is because it is based in ideas developed by theorists of the group of power in a culture dominated by people who used those ideas to exploit other people as free labour to create an empire. Behind each empire there's an ideology, the thing is empires tend to fall when ideas change.
 
M

Margaret Mead

Guest
Margaret, first of all I'd like to say that one of life's contradictions is that the name of a beautiful flower will be linked forever with a war criminal.

I'm not a bot, just a person, so I can't be a Mozbot. But if that's your way of insulting people, I won't limit your hardly won (by other people) right of free speech. If some guys didn't save western civilization some centuries ago you as a woman would be covered with veils from head to toes, educated to please men desires and used as a cow. Your freedom of speech, like mine, would be zero, like your chances of becoming a ceo or a president or a citizen with equal rights. So please feel free to insult. But remember where that freedom comes from.

Races don't exist from a biological point of view. They are a cultural construction based on extremely few external features of human species. What exists, and here is where you can talk about anthropologists, is a myriad of human cultures each one of them with different ideologies. Religions are a kind of ideology (set of ideas that explain the world). That is why I said the social construction of the idea of human race is "a belief". It is because it is based in ideas developed by theorists of the group of power in a culture dominated by people who used those ideas to exploit other people as free labour to create an empire. Behind each empire there's an ideology, the thing is empires tend to fall when ideas change.

You insulted me! You said, out of nowhere that I "belong in a cult." That's why I referred to "Mozbots" since that is also a type of cult. So we both believe in free speech. "I know that you would like me if only you could meet me."
About race, when I took courses in anthropology we did discuss the idea that race does not exist but it was an issue that was far from settled. I did some reading just now and discovered that it is far more widely accepted today so maybe the way you're stating it is correct or close enough that I will cease arguing about it. What I was arguing about is the way you state it like a fact, but I will concede that the vast majority of experts now seem to agree with you, and I should have taken five minutes to read about it because my opinion turned out to be outdated.
 
K

Keanu Reaves

Guest
You insulted me! You said, out of nowhere that I "belong in a cult." That's why I referred to "Mozbots" since that is also a type of cult. So we both believe in free speech. "I know that you would like me if only you could meet me."
About race, when I took courses in anthropology we did discuss the idea that race does not exist but it was an issue that was far from settled. I did some reading just now and discovered that it is far more widely accepted today so maybe the way you're stating it is correct or close enough that I will cease arguing about it. What I was arguing about is the way you state it like a fact, but I will concede that the vast majority of experts now seem to agree with you, and I should have taken five minutes to read about it because my opinion turned out to be outdated.

You mean to say that anthropolgy said there were races, for sure, then at one point went back and said there were no races, for sure sure this time??:eek:
Didnt psychology say once that being gay was akin to being nutso in the coco, but now, it turns out that
they are saner than straight peeps?:straightface:
Didnt God tell the Pope that all atheists were going to hell, but now they may be the only ones going to heaven???:straightface:
I mean, WTF dudes?:crazy:
Someone is trying to sell of a slice of salami.:rock:
 

countthree

Well-Known Member
You insulted me! You said, out of nowhere that I "belong in a cult." That's why I referred to "Mozbots" since that is also a type of cult. So we both believe in free speech. "I know that you would like me if only you could meet me."
About race, when I took courses in anthropology we did discuss the idea that race does not exist but it was an issue that was far from settled. I did some reading just now and discovered that it is far more widely accepted today so maybe the way you're stating it is correct or close enough that I will cease arguing about it. What I was arguing about is the way you state it like a fact, but I will concede that the vast majority of experts now seem to agree with you, and I should have taken five minutes to read about it because my opinion turned out to be outdated.

Of course it is a fact that races don't exist from a scientifical point of view. Not because "the vast majority of experts now" say it. It is because there is no proof and never existed the proof that human races exist out of the cultural and social construction of the idea of human race, based in some physical external features, arbitrarily chosen because some people decided there were political and economical motives to submit and exploit another group of people who had those features. In the same way, someone could have invented the "race" of left handed people, or redhead people (the joke of Jesus being a redhead) or celiac (gluten intolerant) people. Can you imagine how many "races" could be invented now that genetical markers can be spotted? It's like there's an open gate towards a devil's playground for mad scientists funded by rich people aimed to exploit others.
How can we prove something does not exist? We only can prove something that actually exists. We lawyers know that negative facts can not be proved. Human races can not be proved out of the existence of a cultural machiavellic construction designed to exploit, segregate and rob other human beings. That's the only existence that can be proved about human "races", and it's a terrible one from an ethical point of view.

Yes, you belong to a cult. And you belong to the cult of ignorants too.
 
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K

Keanu Reaves

Guest
Of course it is a fact that races don't exist from a scientifical point of view. Not because "the vast majority of experts now" say it. It is because there is no proof and never existed the proof that human races exist out of the cultural and social construction of the idea of human race, based in some physical external features, arbitrarily chosen because some people decided there were political and economical motives to submit and exploit another group of people who had those features. In the same way, someone could have invented the "race" of left handed people, or redhead people (the joke of Jesus being a redhead) or celiac (gluten intolerant) people. Can you imagine how many "races" could be invented now that genetical markers can be spotted? It's like there's an open gate towards a devil's playground for mad scientists funded by rich people aimed to exploit others.
How can we prove something does not exist? We only can prove something that actually exists. We lawyers know that negative facts can not be proved. Human races can not be proved out of the existence of a cultural machiavellic construction designed to exploit, segregate and rob other human beings. That's the only existence that can be proved about human "races", and it's a terrible one from an ethical point of view.

Yes, you belong to a cult. And you belong to the cult of ignorants too.


For centuries, races were said to exist from a 'scientific viewpoint', just like from a scientific viewpoint the earth was the center of the universe. :crazy:
So, if at some point 'science' guaranteed the existence of races, its because they had proof for aforesaid existence.
Dudes, yes, the proof maybe was fed up, royally fed up. Or maybe not. Maybe the proof expounded today is Fed up.
Maybe science is totally fed up.
Peeps stay calm.:rock:
Remember, Sartre said existance is nothingness, so nothingness must exist. Grab a beer and go.
 

The_Beginning

Well-Known Member
It's a nonsense piece in a nonsense newspaper, Morrissey doesn't have far right tendencies, his views on animal rights could be construed as left wing

Actually, I think animal rights is one of those issues that crosses party lines independently. In Canada, Don Cherry, a well-known Hockey Night in Canada personality who is openly right-wing, is also a staunch spokesman for animals.
 
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Margaret Mead

Guest
Of course it is a fact that races don't exist from a scientifical point of view. Not because "the vast majority of experts now" say it. It is because there is no proof and never existed the proof that human races exist out of the cultural and social construction of the idea of human race, based in some physical external features, arbitrarily chosen because some people decided there were political and economical motives to submit and exploit another group of people who had those features. In the same way, someone could have invented the "race" of left handed people, or redhead people (the joke of Jesus being a redhead) or celiac (gluten intolerant) people. Can you imagine how many "races" could be invented now that genetical markers can be spotted? It's like there's an open gate towards a devil's playground for mad scientists funded by rich people aimed to exploit others.
How can we prove something does not exist? We only can prove something that actually exists. We lawyers know that negative facts can not be proved. Human races can not be proved out of the existence of a cultural machiavellic construction designed to exploit, segregate and rob other human beings. That's the only existence that can be proved about human "races", and it's a terrible one from an ethical point of view.

Yes, you belong to a cult. And you belong to the cult of ignorants too.

"Scientifical" is not a real word, so I'd be more slow to call people ignorant. I wish I were still ignorant of your existence, but unfortunately your ongoing hate affair with 12" made me unwillingly aware.
 
M

Margaret Mead

Guest
You mean to say that anthropolgy said there were races, for sure, then at one point went back and said there were no races, for sure sure this time??:eek:
Didnt psychology say once that being gay was akin to being nutso in the coco, but now, it turns out that
they are saner than straight peeps?:straightface:
Didnt God tell the Pope that all atheists were going to hell, but now they may be the only ones going to heaven???:straightface:
I mean, WTF dudes?:crazy:
Someone is trying to sell of a slice of salami.:rock:

Just like the Earth was once flat, then round, but if you judge by youtube videos, is becoming flat again. And once upon a time it was impossible for man to land on the Moon, then we did, but now it is again impossible.
 

Theo

Active Member
Very silly article which seems to believe anyone who disagrees with leftists on anything is a "racist".
 

countthree

Well-Known Member
Hitler was a socialist.

The problem with Hitler was not that he was a socialist, a nationalist, a vegetarian, etc. The problem with him is that he was a psychopath and criminal, because he was a serial killer, a torturer, an extortionist, a thief, an invader, a bomber, a war criminal, a coward that escaped and hid, etc.
"Scientifical" is not a real word, so I'd be more slow to call people ignorant. I wish I were still ignorant of your existence, but unfortunately your ongoing hate affair with 12" made me unwillingly aware.

Feel free to ignore me. I prefer to be able to invent a word in a foreign language and not being ignorant of basic facts of life, like you. Don't bother 12 inches who is quite calm now. No need to wake up the beast.
 
H

Herpes Harmonica

Guest
The problem with Hitler was not that he was a socialist, a nationalist, a vegetarian, etc. The problem with him is that he was a psychopath and criminal, because he was a serial killer, a torturer, an extortionist, a thief, an invader, a bomber, a war criminal, a coward that escaped and hid, etc.


Feel free to ignore me. I prefer to be able to invent a word in a foreign language and not being ignorant of basic facts of life, like you. Don't bother 12 inches who is quite calm now. No need to wake up the beast.
I miss 12 inch and even Uncleskinny but I guess they are both busy as they actually have a real life.
 
H

Herpes Harmonica

Guest
I like his words of wisdom, good old Dr. paedoPHILe.

I remember when Letterman showed short clips from his shows cut out of context when Dr. Phil was ranting and raving in classic Texas style.
 

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