Cracking new Morrissey interview - full transcript here

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You'll find its enormously helpful to play the ball, not the man.

I was refocusing the debate, we'd already covered alot of that ground, the question was originally about Morrissey's use of the haloucast/meat indusrty analology. Turns out it was actually orignally proposed by a Nobel prize-winning author and Nazi death camp survivor. Looking back it comes across a bit "negative" when one of the mods jumps in early with

"He says things for effect, and must be dreadfully pissed off that it passed without comment. In any case it's a stupid analogy to draw, as Worm has expertly pointed out."
 
It's amazing that this argument is still going on after all these years; Morrissey did not come up with the abbatoir=concentration camp analogy, nor did PETA.

Isaac Bashevis Singer, a Polish Jew who fled his country a few years before Hitler invaded and who lost family in the Nazi death camps is the man who penned the phrase: "in relation to animals, all men are Nazis; for the animals, it is an Eternal Treblinka." Singer was a Nobel prize-winning author, a humanitarian and a supporter of the notion of animals rights. He wasn't some armchair bleeding-heart, he watched the madness that gave rise to the concentration camps unfold, and he had no problem equating the industrial killing of animals with the horrors of man's inhumanity to man.

It doesn't matter if a chicken or a cow knows what a Nazi is, it matters that animals feel pain, that they suffer, that they are helpless and that they are killed in mind-numbing numbers with no compassion whatsoever. The Nazis dehumanized their victims; they were killing "vermin" and not men, women and children. We devalue animals to the extent that they are now "harvested"; the same desensitization is required to kill on an industrial scale. The lack of compassion and empathy is what allowed the Nazis to slaughter their victims, and it is the same lack of compassion and empathy that allows us to slaughter millions upon millions of animals every single day. We are not talking about moral equivalence, we are talking about the human capacity for disengagement with other living things, about notions of human mercy, justice and the right to petition a loving god. It is a profound philosophical point.

As for "Meat is Murder" being literally true, it is about as factual as "Silence=Death" another phrase from the period that changed minds and saved lives. Morrissey should be very proud of his song, and its continuing emotional resonance.

Beautifully articulated, far better than I could have done. I agree with you completely.
 
The word "Murder" is by definition a human only thing. Find me a definition that says otherwise.

I know that, you know that, buy you just try telling that to those Chimp scientists. They're struggling to think of a word to describe what they saw.

P.
 
I know that, you know that, buy you just try telling that to those Chimp scientists. They're struggling to think of a word to describe what they saw.

P.

I thought the chimps were peaceful?

dr-zaius-planet-apes-2009.jpg
 
Get your stinking paws off me.

P.

P.S You damn dirty ape.

Wouldn't it be awesomely ironic if Morrissey crash-landed on the Planet of the Apes and found himself imprisoned by Dr. Zaius?

"You can't do this! This is monstrous. It's like the death camps, all over again!"

"Why...it talks!"

"Of course I speak, you idiot. I defended you, I was on your side back when you were just...ehm...chimps".

*raucous chimp laughter*
 
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Wouldn't it be awesomely ironic if Morrissey crash-landed on the Planet of the Apes and found himself imprisoned by Dr. Zaius?

"You can't do this! This is monstrous. It's like the death camps, all over again!"

"Why...it talks!"

It's the part I was born to play, baby!

P.
 
Firstly the animals death doesn't happen "so that people can eat" - people can eat anyway without the needless death, they are being killed for pleasure not so people can eat.

"saying that Jews and animals are the same thing" - now that is offensive, he isn't talking about Jews at all (plently of other people died in Nazi death camps) he is talking about the value placed on life and factory killing

Yeah but it was mostly Jews. And you're nitpicking the details when the argument is about principles. And plently isn't a word.

Yes, we humans can eat without eating animals, but we shouldn't have to. No other animals have morals like this...they do what nature dictates, to survive. We shouldn't be any different. It's a process. A foodchain. We are not above it just because we have Priuses and hi-speed internet. All our progress and technology could go IN A HEARTBEAT. We would still need to kill and harvest and eat. It's primal and ancient and real.

I don't believe in cruelty to animals for sport. But just because there is suffering involved in killing animals so that humans can eat, well, that doesn't make it wrong. Life is full of misery and suffering.

We've killed animals for centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries...killed them to eat, to stay warm with their skins. Deal with it. It's ugly and unfortunate but that's life.

Don't be such a namby-pamby, Smiler.
 
Yeah but it was mostly Jews. And you're nitpicking the details when the argument is about principles. And plently isn't a word.

Yes, we humans can eat without eating animals, but we shouldn't have to. No other animals have morals like this...they do what nature dictates, to survive. We shouldn't be any different. It's a process. A foodchain. We are not above it just because we have Priuses and hi-speed internet. All our progress and technology could go IN A HEARTBEAT. We would still need to kill and harvest and eat. It's primal and ancient and real.

I don't believe in cruelty to animals for sport. But just because there is suffering involved in killing animals so that humans can eat, well, that doesn't make it wrong. Life is full of misery and suffering.

We've killed animals for centuries and centuries and centuries and centuries...killed them to eat, to stay warm with their skins. Deal with it. It's ugly and unfortunate but that's life.

Don't be such a namby-pamby, Smiler.

Its like A level Nietzsche.
 
Its like A level Nietzsche.

I don't know what A level means. I'm from America where we have grades, and stuff.

Dude, I am not insensitive to the suffering of animals. I have a cat dying of feline leikemia. Even with meds she is in a great deal of pain every day, but we cannot put her down because she is like family to us.

Don't believe me? This is growing very tiresome...your obtuse stubborn petulance.

Listen, man. Listen, Smiler my boy. I will, I repeat I WILL POST A PICTURE of my terminally ill cat right here, on this page, in this thread, just to win this argument.

Don't think I won't. I'll do it, man. That's how I roll.
 
I don't know what A level means. I'm from America where we have grades, and stuff.

Dude, I am not insensitive to the suffering of animals. I have a cat dying of feline leikemia. Even with meds she is in a great deal of pain every day, but we cannot put her down because she is like family to us.

Don't believe me? This is growing very tiresome...your obtuse willful petulance.

Listen, man. Listen, Smiler my boy. I will, I repeat I WILL POST A PICTURE of my terminally ill cat right here, on this page, in this thread, just to win this argument.

Don't think I won't. I'll do it, man. That's how I roll.

He's not kidding.
 
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