Controversial??

Uncleskinny

It's all good
Subscriber
Will these arseholes ever shut up? What the hell is controversial about the choice of song, unless they say so, in the current climate? I believe it's a pitiful attempt to stir up a bit of poop, pre court case.

Peter

**P.S - The Guardian has a nice review and spread on last nights gig. I'll get the pedal-powered scanner out shortly**
 

Augustus

Junior Member
Well the short answer to your question is "no, never". They are small minded, self satisfied "do as we say, think as we think" scum.
 

troubled_joe

New Member
Y'see, here's the thing. The actual magazine is very close to closing for good, with the idea of just maintaining their website. Now, as for that recent interview, it was so obvious what their game was....He's a banker for great sales every time he's on the cover, so publicity for them was a good thing.
What is interesting is the contents of their forum.....racism like you wouldn't believe, two weeks a go alink to a porn site showing a mentally retarded girl being "raped"....Oh yes, it's all there.

The once great magazine is now the music equivalent of The Sun newspper....and their website is no better. Tabloid, inarticulate musings of wrtiters who grew up in the britpop era, and saw a cushy number.

Dig a bit.......
 

laughing_anne

New Member
Well, it's not like Moz could be bullied into dropping National Front Disco from the setlist. If anything, he'll play it even more ;):D

NME are really clutching at straws here. Sad really..
 
D

Dave

Guest
Does anyone see any connection between "England for the English" and comments regarding the way England is losing its identity due to immigration? I'm just wondering. I'd be curious to hear how people interpret the lyrics of this song.
 

Maurice E

Junior Member
Does anyone see any connection between "England for the English" and comments regarding the way England is losing its identity due to immigration? I'm just wondering. I'd be curious to hear how people interpret the lyrics of this song.

I do Dave and I think it's actually probably fair to say that the inclusion of this song is controversial.
Morrissey made clear his views on racism and the NME but not on immigration.
In NFD he sings ‘England for the English’ which is the chant of the far right/BNP. Even though this part of the song is not sung in the first person (although this isn't obvious without the printed lyrics), Morrissey's own views on immigration have not been made clear so there is ambiguity about the extent to which he agrees with the BNP (on immigration not racism).
Though I was delighted when this song was reintroduced in 2006, given recent events, I really wish he'd dropped this song from the set list, for now at least...
 
D

Dave

Guest
welllll, of course that song hasn't really been controversial for a long time, I don't think. I do think that there is some middle ground though. Some people in the press tend to take Morrissey's words and make them have a different meaning than he probably intended, and other people, mostly fans, tend to turn a blind eye to some of the things he has said repeatedly that actually are slightly controversial.

Obviously Morrissey does not support the British National Front but when he coincidentally arrives at some of the same conclusions they do, a casual observer might wonder.

So let's say that in National Front Disco the line "England for the English" is spoken by a character, or represents a character's thoughts.
"there's a country / you don't live there / but one day you would like to / and if you show them what you're made of /"
in my opinion, has two meanings. One, it's talking to all the people from somewhere else that would like to come to England, who, if they have what it takes, "show them what you're made of", may successfully join the society.
The other meaning is that it reflects the thoughts of the same character who believes in "England for the English". This person would also like to live in a country, England, where they are from, but a transformed England, one that has been reclaimed from the waves of immigration, which is one interpretation of "but one day you would like to". And in this case, "show them what you're made of" could be taken to mean something much different.

Morrissey has been talking about the loss of England for a long time. That NME article didn't come out of nowhere. He says his words were cut up and re-ordered and that his meaning was destroyed. I do think that is quite possibly true. What we have seen on this very site of the NME has shown that they are full of shit, frankly. Asking fans what they think about Morrissey retiring and then running it as a story about his retirement was bargain basement "journalism". I wouldn't buy a copy of the magazine for 2 cents.

But, unless they totally fabricated quotes, and he didn't say that immigration is changing the character of England, then it's not too hard to paint his views as being only a few shades away from "England for the English".

Has he ever actually discussed this song?

Don't get me wrong. I love the song, and I believe it means that the character, David is lost, searching for identity, and has taken up with a group of dangerous fools. Maybe his motivation is not wrong, but his actions are certainly misguided. I mean, loving England, in my opinion, is not a bad thing. Nationalism is, though, especially when it is manipulated to turn misguided youth into violent and hateful racists.

I actually feel that quite a bit of what Morrissey says and sings, without a lot of explanation, is not as simple as we sometimes make it out to be. Sometimes he is his own worst enemy, and I think there are other people that would agree with me on that.

I'm not writing this to make an excuse for the NME, who I would like to see quickly fail and disappear, despite what they once represented, and I'm certainly not trying to make any sort of negative comment about Morrissey, or to add to the ammunition used against him. I'm just saying that it really isn't that simple in my opinion, to say that the song is not in any way controversial, especially with the NME "bloodbath" so fresh in memory.

Morrissey doesn't need or care for my vote of confidence, but I'm happy that he will continue to make controversial statements, and to sing songs that are not so basic as to be immediately understood by all. After listening to this song many times, and enjoying it as a live favorite, I still think that the meaning is open for discussion.

I guess I have to repeat that I am not attacking Morrissey. I don't think that he is racist. I believe what he says about this topic, and I don't trust the NME. I just don't think that this song is that simple. I think Morrissey occasionally courts controversy. To think otherwise is to think that he is stupid, as he surely knows that his words will be repeated, analyzed, misinterpreted and "anything you say can and will be used against you". By the time he wrote that song he was no stranger to controversy and having his lyrics taken out of context in the press. So when he does say something controversial, or when he does write songs with lines like "England for the English" he isn't a fool. He knows it won't go unnoticed.

Is the song, at this late date, "controversial"? Probably not. Can the lyrics still be taken out of context and used against him? Yes, always. It isn't likely to stop now. Should anyone care what the NME chooses to write about Morrissey? No, never again.
 
Don't bother trying to comment, they screen them all (only 'Morrissey is racist' will get seen)
 

HIM

New Member
welllll, of course that song hasn't really been controversial for a long time, I don't think. I do think that there is some middle ground though. Some people in the press tend to take Morrissey's words and make them have a different meaning than he probably intended, and other people, mostly fans, tend to turn a blind eye to some of the things he has said repeatedly that actually are slightly controversial.

Obviously Morrissey does not support the British National Front but when he coincidentally arrives at some of the same conclusions they do, a casual observer might wonder.

So let's say that in National Front Disco the line "England for the English" is spoken by a character, or represents a character's thoughts.
"there's a country / you don't live there / but one day you would like to / and if you show them what you're made of /"
in my opinion, has two meanings. One, it's talking to all the people from somewhere else that would like to come to England, who, if they have what it takes, "show them what you're made of", may successfully join the society.
The other meaning is that it reflects the thoughts of the same character who believes in "England for the English". This person would also like to live in a country, England, where they are from, but a transformed England, one that has been reclaimed from the waves of immigration, which is one interpretation of "but one day you would like to". And in this case, "show them what you're made of" could be taken to mean something much different.

Morrissey has been talking about the loss of England for a long time. That NME article didn't come out of nowhere. He says his words were cut up and re-ordered and that his meaning was destroyed. I do think that is quite possibly true. What we have seen on this very site of the NME has shown that they are full of shit, frankly. Asking fans what they think about Morrissey retiring and then running it as a story about his retirement was bargain basement "journalism". I wouldn't buy a copy of the magazine for 2 cents.

But, unless they totally fabricated quotes, and he didn't say that immigration is changing the character of England, then it's not too hard to paint his views as being only a few shades away from "England for the English".

Has he ever actually discussed this song?

Don't get me wrong. I love the song, and I believe it means that the character, David is lost, searching for identity, and has taken up with a group of dangerous fools. Maybe his motivation is not wrong, but his actions are certainly misguided. I mean, loving England, in my opinion, is not a bad thing. Nationalism is, though, especially when it is manipulated to turn misguided youth into violent and hateful racists.

I actually feel that quite a bit of what Morrissey says and sings, without a lot of explanation, is not as simple as we sometimes make it out to be. Sometimes he is his own worst enemy, and I think there are other people that would agree with me on that.

I'm not writing this to make an excuse for the NME, who I would like to see quickly fail and disappear, despite what they once represented, and I'm certainly not trying to make any sort of negative comment about Morrissey, or to add to the ammunition used against him. I'm just saying that it really isn't that simple in my opinion, to say that the song is not in any way controversial, especially with the NME "bloodbath" so fresh in memory.

Morrissey doesn't need or care for my vote of confidence, but I'm happy that he will continue to make controversial statements, and to sing songs that are not so basic as to be immediately understood by all. After listening to this song many times, and enjoying it as a live favorite, I still think that the meaning is open for discussion.

I guess I have to repeat that I am not attacking Morrissey. I don't think that he is racist. I believe what he says about this topic, and I don't trust the NME. I just don't think that this song is that simple. I think Morrissey occasionally courts controversy. To think otherwise is to think that he is stupid, as he surely knows that his words will be repeated, analyzed, misinterpreted and "anything you say can and will be used against you". By the time he wrote that song he was no stranger to controversy and having his lyrics taken out of context in the press. So when he does say something controversial, or when he does write songs with lines like "England for the English" he isn't a fool. He knows it won't go unnoticed.

Is the song, at this late date, "controversial"? Probably not. Can the lyrics still be taken out of context and used against him? Yes, always. It isn't likely to stop now. Should anyone care what the NME chooses to write about Morrissey? No, never again.

fkn hell, dave!

that was a big one!
 

Maurice E

Junior Member
welllll, of course that song hasn't really been controversial for a long time, I don't think. I do think that there is some middle ground though. Some people in the press tend to take Morrissey's words and make them have a different meaning than he probably intended, and other people, mostly fans, tend to turn a blind eye to some of the things he has said repeatedly that actually are slightly controversial.

Obviously Morrissey does not support the British National Front but when he coincidentally arrives at some of the same conclusions they do, a casual observer might wonder.

So let's say that in National Front Disco the line "England for the English" is spoken by a character, or represents a character's thoughts.
"there's a country / you don't live there / but one day you would like to / and if you show them what you're made of /"
in my opinion, has two meanings. One, it's talking to all the people from somewhere else that would like to come to England, who, if they have what it takes, "show them what you're made of", may successfully join the society.
The other meaning is that it reflects the thoughts of the same character who believes in "England for the English". This person would also like to live in a country, England, where they are from, but a transformed England, one that has been reclaimed from the waves of immigration, which is one interpretation of "but one day you would like to". And in this case, "show them what you're made of" could be taken to mean something much different.

Morrissey has been talking about the loss of England for a long time. That NME article didn't come out of nowhere. He says his words were cut up and re-ordered and that his meaning was destroyed. I do think that is quite possibly true. What we have seen on this very site of the NME has shown that they are full of shit, frankly. Asking fans what they think about Morrissey retiring and then running it as a story about his retirement was bargain basement "journalism". I wouldn't buy a copy of the magazine for 2 cents.

But, unless they totally fabricated quotes, and he didn't say that immigration is changing the character of England, then it's not too hard to paint his views as being only a few shades away from "England for the English".

Has he ever actually discussed this song?

Don't get me wrong. I love the song, and I believe it means that the character, David is lost, searching for identity, and has taken up with a group of dangerous fools. Maybe his motivation is not wrong, but his actions are certainly misguided. I mean, loving England, in my opinion, is not a bad thing. Nationalism is, though, especially when it is manipulated to turn misguided youth into violent and hateful racists.

I actually feel that quite a bit of what Morrissey says and sings, without a lot of explanation, is not as simple as we sometimes make it out to be. Sometimes he is his own worst enemy, and I think there are other people that would agree with me on that.

I'm not writing this to make an excuse for the NME, who I would like to see quickly fail and disappear, despite what they once represented, and I'm certainly not trying to make any sort of negative comment about Morrissey, or to add to the ammunition used against him. I'm just saying that it really isn't that simple in my opinion, to say that the song is not in any way controversial, especially with the NME "bloodbath" so fresh in memory.

Morrissey doesn't need or care for my vote of confidence, but I'm happy that he will continue to make controversial statements, and to sing songs that are not so basic as to be immediately understood by all. After listening to this song many times, and enjoying it as a live favorite, I still think that the meaning is open for discussion.

I guess I have to repeat that I am not attacking Morrissey. I don't think that he is racist. I believe what he says about this topic, and I don't trust the NME. I just don't think that this song is that simple. I think Morrissey occasionally courts controversy. To think otherwise is to think that he is stupid, as he surely knows that his words will be repeated, analyzed, misinterpreted and "anything you say can and will be used against you". By the time he wrote that song he was no stranger to controversy and having his lyrics taken out of context in the press. So when he does say something controversial, or when he does write songs with lines like "England for the English" he isn't a fool. He knows it won't go unnoticed.

Is the song, at this late date, "controversial"? Probably not. Can the lyrics still be taken out of context and used against him? Yes, always. It isn't likely to stop now. Should anyone care what the NME chooses to write about Morrissey? No, never again.

no time to reply in full but, yes, he has discussed the song. his explanation/defence was that "England for the English" was in quotation marks; not obvious as no lyric sheet was issued with Your Arsenal, but he wanted to make it clear that he was not singing that part in the first person...
 

Brel

Guttersnipe
The line "England for the English" is not used lazily by Morrissey, however it has been used by Lazy Journalists as part of the basis of their campaign against him. If the NME really had any political insight, they would know that the line comes from "The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists", generally regarded as the Bible of Socialism, here in the UK.

Also the line "we wonder if the Thunder is ever really gonna begin", has always struck me as retort against the "rivers of blood" type predictions of doom & gloom of biblical proportions over immigration, that were being spouted by the National Front?

The sentiments of the song are very clear.
 

Maurice E

Junior Member
Not to a casual listener.

Even sang in the third person. The line "England for the english" can be misread.

Yes, you're right. The immigration comments have been raked up in virtually all of the previews and reviews for these concerts and usually in an unfavourable way (e.g. let's hope Moz focuses on singing and keeps his dodgy views on immigration to himself).
Moz attracts large audiences these days, many of whom simply don't know his 'early stuff'. When they hear him singing 'England for the English' at the top of his voice in an incredibly infectious song, it could indeed be misread...
 

Brel

Guttersnipe
Not to a casual listener.

Even sang in the third person. The line "England for the english" can be misread.

Any Music Jounalist who would describe themself as a "casual listener" should be hounded out of the business. We are talking here about their reactions, and claims on "controversy"?

I'm fully aware that the line is not in the "safe" category of your average Cliff Richard song. But thats something to be thankful for, eh?
 

Paulc

On holiday by mistake
well National Front Disco was dropped from the set last night

i hope it makes it back for tonight

i dont give a shit if people think its racist. i know its not and i love it and it makes me happy when i sing it with him.
 

cornelius blaze

Boychild mustn't tremble!
I am going tonight and Friday. Am currently in negotiations with MrsC about Saturday but at last round of talks it didnt look good.

I am trying to persuade her to come with me. To this she said - you dont want me to come you just want to see Him and think by asking me along you get to see Him without feeling guilty about not spending time with your wife the WHOLE WEEK.

She hates Morrissey - she thinks i love Him more than i love her.

I said in a small voice but i get to see you every week babe- she told me to f off.:confused::

oh dear! we have heard of 'golf widows' now its 'morrissey widows':p


By the way, i wouldnt walk down the street singing NFD either but if there is one place i can sing it at the top of my voice its at a Morrissey concert :guitar:

or in the shower:p
He writes for people who are prepared to think about the issues he brings up, not those who just want comforting slogans to make themselves feel they are on the right side..

like 'Margaret On The Guillotine';)

Any Music Jounalist who would describe themself as a "casual listener" should be hounded out of the business. We are talking here about their reactions, and claims on "controversy"?
I'm fully aware that the line is not in the "safe" category of your average Cliff Richard song. But thats something to be thankful for, eh?

They are just going to take that part of the song and use it for their advantage to be critical. It is an easy thing for them to do. As the song doesn't directly condem the NF.


well National Front Disco was dropped from the set last nighti hope it makes it back for tonight
i dont give a shit if people think its racist. i know its not and i love it and it makes me happy when i sing it with him.

Are you going every night Paulc? I hope it comes back to. But i wouldn't walk down the street singing it!

Yes, you're right. The immigration comments have been raked up in virtually all of the previews and reviews for these concerts and usually in an unfavourable way (e.g. let's hope Moz focuses on singing and keeps his dodgy views on immigration to himself).
Moz attracts large audiences these days, many of whom simply don't know his 'early stuff'. When they hear him singing 'England for the English' at the top of his voice in an incredibly infectious song, it could indeed be misread...

In many respects the song was 15 years ago. Immigration has changed from when the NF first targeted people from indian and pakistan. It is a very retrospective song. I think Morrissey should of been more blunt, in that he could of written a verse or another chorus condeming the NF from the characters point of view.

"that's enough, I can't take any more"

Sister I'm A Poet, wow, he played Sister I'm A Poet! :)

I hope he plays this song on saturday.
 
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