Brexit

[countthree]

I don't think the problem is with politicians telling people they are wrong. That's actually a central part of a politician's job description, surely? What's the point of them if they are just going to tell people what they already think?

Yes, that's exactly the problem. Democracy is based on people's informed decisions, expressed through the vote. That can be uncomfortable and complicated, sometimes revolutionary. But supposedly it's the best system of government. If it's not so, it's not democracy, it's another disguised dictatorship. Politicians can give their opinions, try to convince people, seduce them, in order to earn votes to represent a group of people. But they can't tell people "you are wrong and I own the truth". That's the denial of democracy. That can be done only by someone who doesn't need to be periodically elected. Their main duty as representatives is listening people's voices. How can they represent the will of a group of people if they don't listen and don't act in accordance?? Unless we share the Machiavellian conception of politics. But those were advices given to a medieval prince, not to a member of a democratic government. People have every right to reject politicians who don't represent their interests.

There's a big immigration problem in Europe right now and politicians and representatives are not solving it. They are ignoring the problem, which is the best way to aggravate it and create more racism, one of the worst human inventions. The previous big European problem was neglected in a similar way until it was too late for millions of people.

 

[Anonymous]

A nice article that manages to talk about the issue and not make it all about race or immigration but rather makes a case for the desire of self determination. From market watch

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/money...vor-brexit-and-want-to-dump-the-eu/ar-AAhdxg8

Whenever I hear talk about this it's always seems like it focuses on people wanting to keep Briton as it is was in terms culture and that there will be an economic apocalypse if they leave which to my ears sounds like shaming and scare tactics. Not saying those topics aren't ones to think about but for some it surely must be about more than that

 

[Cornflakes]

A nice article that manages to talk about the issue and not make it all about race or immigration but rather makes a case for the desire of self determination. From market watch

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/money...vor-brexit-and-want-to-dump-the-eu/ar-AAhdxg8

Whenever I hear talk about this it's always seems like it focuses on people wanting to keep Briton as it is was in terms culture and that there will be an economic apocalypse if they leave which to my ears sounds like shaming and scare tactics. Not saying those topics aren't ones to think about but for some it surely must be about more than that

That article is not so well researched, because three of the five "problems with the EU" it talks about are accurately described.

Firstly, although the EU does have regulations to do with weights and measures which favour the metric system, it is not true that it bans the imperial system. This is something that was proposed about 30 years ago but never came to pass because it was basically a stupid idea. It's also not an issue that many people care about in the UK, since the vast majority of people under retirement age couldn't pass a basic exam on imperial measures anyway. I certainly couldn't.

Secondly, it isn't true that it's EU law that obliges countries to feed and house refugees, as if this would be a bad thing. It's an obligation stemming from the 1951 Convention on Refugees.

Thirdly, it is true that, for better or worse, the EU has an emissions trading scheme. But this is really just the administration of what was required under the Kyoto Protocol. The US doesn't have to be part of one because it didn't ratify the Kyoto protocol. But the UK did, so whether it is in or out of the EU makes little practical difference.

The other two - that there are EU standards for vehicle manufacture and a maximum average working week - are basically true, but I'm not sure they should cause anyone to lose sleep.

The quality of the debate over the referendum in the UK has not been great. But I think it is overwhelmingly true to say that the whole thing mainly boils down to how you feel about immigration versus how much you believe/care about the claim that leaving would weaken our economy. There's also a secondary thing about how you view the idea of having collective trade and employment rules covering 28 countries. But the details of actual EU legislation are not going to be on many people's minds when they vote.

 

[Anonymous]

That article is not so well researches, because three of the five "problems with the EU" it talks about are accurately described.

Firstly, although the EU does have regulations to do with weights and measures which favour the metric system, it is not true that it bans the imperial system. This is something that was proposed about 30 years ago but never came to pass because it was basically a stupid idea. It's also not an issue that many people care about in the UK, since the vast majority of people under retirement age couldn't pass a basic exam on imperial measures anyway. I certainly couldn't.

Secondly, it isn't true that it's EU law that obliges countries to feed and house refugees, as if this would be a bad thing. It's an obligation stemming from the 1951 Convention on Refugees.

Thirdly, it is true that, for better or worse, the EU has an emissions trading scheme. But this is really just the administration of what was required under the Kyoto Protocol. The US doesn't have to be part of one because it didn't ratify the Kyoto protocol. But the UK did, so whether it is in or out of the EU makes little practical difference.

The other two - that there are EU standards for vehicle manufacture and a maximum average working week - are basically true, but I'm not sure they should cause anyone to lose sleep.

The quality of the debate over the referendum in the UK has not been great. But I think it is overwhelmingly true to say that the whole thing mainly boils down to how you feel about immigration versus how much you believe/care about the claim that leaving would weaken our economy. There's also a secondary thing about how you view the idea of having collective trade and employment rules covering 28 countries. But the details of actual EU legislation are not going to be on many people's minds when they vote.

Thanks for the info as I don't live there and don't know much about it as I'm not following the topic or anything so it's always nice to hear from those that do. Do people feel, rightly or wrongly, that they don't have control over there country with immigration being some misconstrued focal point. If the e.u doesn't factor into immigration why would people vote to leave in order to solve it

 

[countthree]

The immigration problem is the consequence of another biggest problem: war and crisis in other places of the world. People go to Europe because they must urgently leave their homes. Most of times, it is not an option. Less than a century ago, and many times before that, there were war and hungry in Europe too, and people went to other places of the world like desesperados looking for the same things immigrants expect to find in Europe now.
European Governments have responsibility supporting invasions, army conflicts, revolutions, territorial occupations, bloody dictatorships for economical benefits, criminal activities related to the business of war, etc. But not as members of EU, mainly because of their own decisions and previous agreements with third countries. The peace solution designed at the end of WW2 is the beginning of the main conflict of our days.
Now European people are the secondary victims of the wrong doings of their governments, and they need a quick fix to their problems. If some of them believe that being part of EU doesn't protect their safety and wellness, like it seems to be, who can blame them? You can't ask innocent people to be heroes and martyrs. They expect to be protected. Plus, as much as some activities, as music industry, seems to be benefited by EU, others seem to be having a bad time. There's a global crisis, but some situations worsen the scenario.

 

[Anonymous]

So how does leaving the e.u. Change the immigration problem people currently see in Britain

 

[Cornflakes]

So how does leaving the e.u. Change the immigration problem people currently see in Britain

EU citizens have an automatic right to work and reside in other EU countries, and about half of immigrants to the UK come from the EU. So if we left the EU and didn't end up with a Norway-style free trade agreement (where there would still be free movement), then the ability of the government to reduce immigration would be increased.

 

[Anonymous]

EU citizens have an automatic right to work and reside in other EU countries, and about half of immigrants to the UK come from the EU. So if we left the EU and didn't end up with a Norway-style free trade agreement (where there would still be free movement), then the ability of the government to reduce immigration would be increased.

Gotcha. So not so much about illegal immigration or refugees but rather about work visa related migration

 

[Anonymous]

And soon it'll be all over (relatively)

 

[malvachat]

Nothing has really happened to make me switch back to remain.Although I'm not convinced I'm right I'm voting out.

 

[Anonymous]

John Oliver provides a humerous leftist view usually

 

[malvachat]

John Oliver can be amusing but not to a mass British audience.
Got the view of most British people right.
As I said myself in a previous post.
"f*** 'em"

 

[mattisek]

Johnny Marr on Brexit:

The The - The Beaten Generation

 

[countthree]

Oh my... It seems United Kingdom has its own independence day.

I confess I didn't believe British people would have the bullocks to face the unknown in this quasi-suicidal way. Time will show if this was the right decision or not. Now we can say more than half of the country made a big statement of self confidence and that's admirable. Touchée

 

[Anonymous]

Steven the CrankFraud lived up to his name and remained spineless and mute in the run up to this historic day in British history, instead choosing to meddle with the race for U S president. So to let's be clear about this FACT in the future ! Whatever bullshit Steven comes out with in the future about Great Britian ! That's all it is BULLSHIT ! He and his chum Russell Braindamage didn't have the balls to say anything in the run up to this historic day in British politics and the future of Great Britain and buried their heads in the sand.
Great Britain has spoken and decided its own future. The prime minister has resigned as a result.

This has nothing to do with a silly CrankFraud pop performer !

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

Benny-the-British-Butcher

 

[Uncleskinny]

We're f***ed. The racists are laughing..

 

[countthree]

GOD SAVE THE QUEEN

Benny-the-British-Butcher

Well, the queen is saved now.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't think it'll be to terrible but good luck guys. Good luck to the remaining e.u as well

 

[Cardiff elvis]

What does Morrissey think about it?

Mozzer loves Britain so he would vote out I believe or not vote at all.
"You are the last truly British people we will ever know".......

 

[Anonymous]

"Speaking as a Father we need to listen to the experts, you wouldn't get in a car if the mechanic told you it had a leaking fuel gauge. Look there's no getting back in the cockpit once you've leaped out of the plane. "

David Cameron 23/6/16

Benny-the-British-Butcher